140 replies to this topic

[Koniks]

Yokaiko, on 14 February 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

That is a huge assumption because everything has to hit, and I'll tell you now that isn't often the case.

You missed the "potential max damage" not "guaranteed max damage."

[Aresye]

Ace Selin, on 14 February 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

But for double the weight carried and what a Clan mech can carry on a medium an IS assualt could only be comparable too.
Thats still not a great trade off for IS pilots, but better than the Ghost Heat shambles we need to deal with currently.
And Clans with XL engines are still at an advantage towards the end game (a broken side torso and Clan mechs keep spewing laser vomit, where most IS mechs have to carry XL engines to compete and by then those would be dead in a similar situation).

You really just pick the parts of the argument that suit you dont you, whilst ignoring common sense and realistic balance.

It all comes down to dmg/0.1s. The Stalker build would have a higher amount of damage for each 0.1s the beam is on target.

Higher dmg/0.1s = lower TTK, and also lowers the skill cap, as newer players that would normally not be able to focus a full beam duration on a single component would now be able to dish out a higher amount of damage and have less wasted by crossing over another component and/or missing.

[Lily from animove]

k05h3lk1n, on 14 February 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

I shouldn't react to this but let me rephrase my statement: "If you are worried that Clan Lasers aren't heat efficient enough you should use them with more care or use less of them".

And yeah, a Clan mech boating a 40+ Laser-Alpha pops an IS XL in no time. A quick test on Forest Colony Testing Grounds with 6xCMPL(48 PP) gave everything, except for the Atlas and Awesome, at least an Orange Sidetorso with a single Alpha. Which isn't exactly one-shotting but as good as dead as one can be. Awesome was completely stripped of armor, Atlas had red armor after one alpha.

But just read whatever you like into what I wrote. After your awesome response I'll just let you think what you want to. Now go and meta-hump your clan-mechs some more, pro.

first your static non moving not even full armored mech "test" is invalid, this is not what happens on the battlefield, unless you shoot at complete noobs.

second heat efficientcy is heat efficiency, it does not change how much or how often you shoot what. you have X heattreshold and you generate Y amount of heat. and this is turened into damage by the factor of dmg/heat. and some lasers, specially IS ones are better doing so. If you don't understand that than you will never efficiently make use of this advantage.

[Ultimax]

Aresye, on 14 February 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

It all comes down to dmg/0.1s. The Stalker build would have a higher amount of damage for each 0.1s the beam is on target.

You are splitting microscopic hairs at this point.


I get it, you like Clan Laser advantages.


2x CLPL + 4x CERMLAS
16 Tons
54 Damage (at 400m)
44 Heat

6x LLAS
30 Tons
54 Damage (at 450m)
71.99 Heat


Anyone unable to see there is a problem with balance there, has zero credibility in a balance discussion.


The amount of extra burn time, is minimal in comparison to the ludicrous amount of extra tonnage required for the IS build.



I've probably spent more time in that particular clan build than I have in any other build in the game, I'm very familiar with it - and the extra burn time is inconsequential - it certainly isn't worse than weighing an extra 14 tons or paying an extra 60%+ more heat.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 14 February 2015 - 11:15 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Ultimatum X, on 14 February 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

You are splitting microscopic hairs at this point.


I get it, you like Clan Laser advantages.


2x CLPL + 4x CERMLAS
16 Tons
54 Damage (at 400m)
44 Heat

6x LLAS
30 Tons
54 Damage (at 450m)
71.99 Heat


Anyone unable to see there is a problem with balance there, has zero credibility in a balance discussion.


The amount of extra burn time, is minimal in comparison to the ludicrous amount of extra tonnage required for the IS build.

thise "microscopic" hairs are the wntire differenc ein the endgameplay between the pilot failing and the pilot doing good. its the differenc ebetween the 200dmg noob and the 700+ pilot. It is one of the most important things and and not haisprlitting.

guess why the SCR is so superior to the NVA? because SCR? because the hitboxes of a twisting SCR make it even for good pilots impossible to stay on a single location. and so you can see at this existing example, that this hair splitting is a major factor. but unless you do not understand that, or deny this you will clam those weired raw number comparison without knowing thr pros and cons for both differences.

[Ultimax]

Lily from animove, on 14 February 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

thise "microscopic" hairs are the wntire differenc ein the endgameplay between the pilot failing and the pilot doing good. its the differenc ebetween the 200dmg noob and the 700+ pilot. It is one of the most important things and and not haisprlitting.

guess why the SCR is so superior to the NVA? because SCR? because the hitboxes of a twisting SCR make it even for good pilots impossible to stay on a single location. and so you can see at this existing example, that this hair splitting is a major factor. but unless you do not understand that, or deny this you will clam those weired raw number comparison without knowing thr pros and cons for both differences.

If you think the burn times between those two comparisons is even remotely on the level of one being 16 tons and the other being THIRTY tons, or one costing 44 heat to fire and the other costing almost SEVENTY TWO heat to fire - you are deluding yourself.


A few tenths of a second aren't even in the same universe as those other values.


If every player had the choice to take either loadout, regardless of faction or mech, only the stupid would take the 6x LLAS option.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 14 February 2015 - 11:29 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Ultimatum X, on 14 February 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

If you think the burn times between those two comparisons is even remotely on the level of one being 16 tons and the other being THIRTY tons, or one costing 44 heat to fire and the other costing almost SEVENTY TWO heat to fire - you are deluding yourself.


A few tenths of a second aren't even in the same universe as those other values.


If every player had the choice to take either loadout, regardless of faction or mech, only the stupid would take the 6x LLAS option.

tonnag e is not half as important as you think. its about how you play this. its about what you make out of the mech it is. and it will be sololy the situation and mech deciding if those 6LL are better, and situations are also wher you position your mech.
and again you seem not to understand where or what to take advantage of the mech you have. A fe tenth of seconds in a shooter arer basically EVERTHING and no serious CSS player would ever play on a server with latency above 100, which is, ohh look, a tenth of second.

[Ultimax]

Lily from animove, on 14 February 2015 - 11:36 PM, said:

tonnag e is not half as important as you think.

I''m sorry, but no. You are talking complete nonsense at this point and I can't even dignify it with a real response.


Try fitting 30 tons of Lasers and minimum 10 tons of heatsinks on an IS heavy and get back to me on how "unimportant" tonnage is.

[Lily from animove]

Ultimatum X, on 14 February 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

I''m sorry, but no. You are talking complete nonsense at this point and I can't even dignify it with a real response.


Try fitting 30 tons of Lasers and minimum 10 tons of heatsinks on an IS heavy and get back to me on how "unimportant" tonnage is.

yes unless in smaller mechs it is unimportant, especially on the lesser hardpointes IS mechs. So what you gonna squeeze into said staker if you would have CEML available? a bit bigger engine and 2 more DHS, thats all after this half of your mech would be unused tonnage. because you can not even fill it.

and suddenly you would be able with Clan-med lasers:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e8b0b8caacd71ee

now you have this mech with highly superior hardpoints and it does not even die by an XL engine. so this mech shoots you half dead by your raw "shooting examples" before the standard clanmech even gets a line of fire with their low mounted hardpoints.

I doubt you realise what the full, especially non XL ability of IS mechs with clantech you gonna get some truly op min max builds. Especialyl since said stalker would have srm 6's have still room left and may even use clan dhs? LOL.

now try to build me a comparable wahrawk, if posted stalker would have acess to clantech, using cerml instead the posted is meds and srm 6's instead of the posted srm' 4's.

clans would suddenly just be bad, because most clanchassis don't even have as much hardpoints as many is chassis or are extremely restricted with fixed components. Zombie mode non penalised sidetorsoloss mech with superior firepower and hardpointlocations.

But I tell you something, most clanplayers would counter this because they would just adapt and use the advantages vs such a build, which very likely will include some IS weapons.

Edited by Lily from animove, 15 February 2015 - 12:14 AM.

[kapusta11]

Ultimatum X, on 14 February 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

I''m sorry, but no. You are talking complete nonsense at this point and I can't even dignify it with a real response.


Try fitting 30 tons of Lasers and minimum 10 tons of heatsinks on an IS heavy and get back to me on how "unimportant" tonnage is.

You don't get it, "it's all about how you play it", lol.

Edited by kapusta11, 15 February 2015 - 12:11 AM.

[Lightfoot]

That's why you need Gauss Rifles and PPCs to work normally and better LRMs. PGI'S big mistake was to make Battle Tech into lasers-only Brawl-Warrior instead of the MechWarrior tactical Sim, which is balanced and deeply layered. Too much Quake?

But there is always the TDR-5SS with 7 MPLs if this is a Clan v I.S. tech thing. Normally Clan tech stomps Inner Sphere in Lasers and Missiles, but comes nearly even with Gauss Rifles and PPCs. PGI was a bit short-sighted in nerfing the Inner Sphere's two best weapon systems to garbage to push Lasers onto everyone.

Or maybe in all fairness it was the player's short-sightedness in demanding the Gauss and PPC be so heavily nerfed. LRMs too because they are garbage as well now.

Edited by Lightfoot, 15 February 2015 - 12:52 AM.

[norus]

Lily from animove, on 15 February 2015 - 12:09 AM, said:

snip

So your theoretical clan stalker build is 6 cerML and 3 SRM6s eh. Here's a madcat with 1 cLPL 4cerML and 2 SRM6s + artemis. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...32474288af6f208. Gains: 24kph, jumpjets, range of cLPL vs 2 cerML. Loses: 1 SRM6, 1 laser alpha damage, 1 ton ammo, BAP and command console, along with the "zombie" mode but neither has center mounted weapons so it's a bit of a wash on that. So essentially 2 tons of weapons (partially made up for by the LPL which'll have much better damage at longer range), 1 ton of ammo, and the bap/targetting computer is the real difference. Personally i'd say that the TBR build is better, weighs less for CW and so much more maneuverable.

EDIT: Fixed link

Edited by norus, 15 February 2015 - 01:10 AM.

[Lily from animove]

norus, on 15 February 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

So your theoretical clan stalker build is 6 cerML and 3 SRM6s eh. Here's a madcat with 1 cLPL 4cerML and 2 SRM6s + artemis. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bdf0591a16d4de. Gains: 24kph, jumpjets, range of cLPL vs 2 cerML. Loses: 1 SRM6, 1 laser alpha damage, 1 ton ammo, BAP and command console, along with the "zombie" mode but neither has center mounted weapons so it's a bit of a wash on that. So essentially 2 tons of weapons (partially made up for by the LPL which'll have much better damage at longer range), 1 ton of ammo, and the bap/targetting computer is the real difference. Personally i'd say that the TBR build is better, weighs less for CW and so much more maneuverable.

tbr is out of dicsussion because in my opnion trb is a bit op and should get a nerf, so don't use such a imbalanced chassis as an example for proofing a weapon being superior to another., yet this tbr has still low slung arms, meaning it is in a tactical disadvantage, if the IS pilot can porperly use his stalker. Especially if you put missile ears on it. you can easily hit it without the tbr even able to hit you with his torso weapons.

but your link is broken.

it's again a matter of playstyle and using your strengths

Edited by Lily from animove, 15 February 2015 - 01:17 AM.

[norus]

Lily from animove, on 15 February 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

tbr is out of dicsussion because in my opnion trb is a bit op and should get a nerf, so don't use such a imbalanced chassis as an example for proofing a weapon being superior to another., yet this tbr has still low slung arms, meaning it is in a tactical disadvantage, if the IS pilot can porperly use his stalker. Especially if you put missile ears on it. you can easily hit it without the tbr even able to hit you with his torso weapons.

but your link is broken.

it's again a matter of playstyle and using your strenghts

Fixed the link.

Until something happens to the top clan mechs (TBR, SCR, somewhat HBR but that's largely ecm with being very solid in other points) they have to be used for comparison as it's the majority of what is used. Can't just pick a good IS mech that can run the clan tech well and then compare it to a potato like a gargoyle or warhawk(not quite as potato). Isn't the common WHK build 4 LPL due to limited hardpoints anyways, not all IS assaults can mount cerML very well either.

EDIT: Or put another way, you can't give the IS an ideal theoretical situation for laser vomit (stalker) while not doing the same for the clans.

Edited by norus, 15 February 2015 - 01:28 AM.

[Lily from animove]

norus, on 15 February 2015 - 01:21 AM, said:

Fixed the link.

Until something happens to the top clan mechs (TBR, SCR, somewhat HBR but that's largely ecm with being very solid in other points) they have to be used for comparison as it's the majority of what is used. Can't just pick a good IS mech that can run the clan tech well and then compare it to a potato like a gargoyle or warhawk(not quite as potato). Isn't the common WHK build 4 LPL due to limited hardpoints anyways, not all IS assaults can mount cerML very well either.

but do not blame this to the weapons when it is a chassis being the issue. and sure, it's lpl, but imagine the stalker would use CLPL, totally op with that hardpoints, further is lpl's are anways the best laserwapon s at all, sure less range but that wouldn't cre at all. It was just ultimatum X who compared same lasers with same lasers, which is invalid, because a pulsestalker would be inefinately better even with lower alpha.

thinsg are different and they have different strenghts and when you play them properly you can outrule the other, but someone here is doing wird 1 on 1 comparisons that are nonsense. yet if you turn the stick around and make another 1 on 1 nonsense comparson, those people do not even recognise it.

[norus]

Lily from animove, on 15 February 2015 - 01:31 AM, said:

but do not blame this to the weapons when it is a chassis being the issue. and sure, it's lpl, but imagine the stalker would use CLPL, totally op with that hardpoints, further is lpl's are anways the best laserwapon s at all, sure less range but that wouldn't cre at all. It was just ultimatum X who compared same lasers with same lasers, which is invalid, because a pulsestalker would be inefinately better even with lower alpha.

thinsg are different and they have different strenghts and when you play them properly you can outrule the other, but someone here is doing wird 1 on 1 comparisons that are nonsense. yet if you turn the stick around and make another 1 on 1 nonsense comparson, those people do not even recognise it.

Yeah, straight 1 on 1 doesn't quite work out but that's because of how they chose to initially try to balance the clan vs IS tech which is by making it a chassis issue. Unfortunately this lead to some mechs being op with others being horrible. As a single weapon system the cerML is one of the absolute best in the game due to combo of weight damage and range with the main balancing factor being the chassis that can mount it (Which failed on a certain few select mechs). The IS has some weapons which are extremely good too but they tend to be weaker due to weight constraints or range which led to quirks to prop them and the weaker weapons up vs the lasers of the clans. If they ever allowed crosstech the large holes in their balancing which has lead to this mess in the first place would become even more apparent. Many clan mechs would be hard pressed to use IS weapons because of weight and size while IS would have a field day getting things like SRMs and cerML

TLDR: The clan issues are basically chassis based (hard/crit/locked stuff) whereas the IS issues are weight or range for the most part (particularly in the cerML vs IS LL case)

EDIT: I think we can all agree that PGI's balance is like a racetrack. They can go around all the want but the core issues (the track) are still the same, they're just trying to make everything more even by putting better cars in (quirk passes) which will likely never truly fix the problem until they have a clear goal for what they want balance to be like.

Edited by norus, 15 February 2015 - 02:05 AM.

[Lily from animove]

norus, on 15 February 2015 - 01:59 AM, said:

Yeah, straight 1 on 1 doesn't quite work out but that's because of how they chose to initially try to balance the clan vs IS tech which is by making it a chassis issue. Unfortunately this lead to some mechs being op with others being horrible. As a single weapon system the cerML is one of the absolute best in the game due to combo of weight damage and range with the main balancing factor being the chassis that can mount it (Which failed on a certain few select mechs). The IS has some weapons which are extremely good too but they tend to be weaker due to weight constraints or range which led to quirks to prop them and the weaker weapons up vs the lasers of the clans. If they ever allowed crosstech the large holes in their balancing which has lead to this mess in the first place would become even more apparent. Many clan mechs would be hard pressed to use IS weapons because of weight and size while IS would have a field day getting things like SRMs and cerML

TLDR: The clan issues are basically chassis based (hard/crit/locked stuff) whereas the IS issues are weight or range for the most part (particularly in the cerML vs IS LL case)

EDIT: I think we can all agree that PGI's balance is like a racetrack. They can go around all the want but the core issues (the track) are still the same, they're just trying to make everything more even by putting better cars in (quirk passes) which will likely never truly fix the problem until they have a clear goal for what they want balance to be like.

i would not agree with this, because cerml are heat inefficient and not pp enough compared to the IS meds, this in my opinion does balance them out. however, pgi could also decerase cermeds heat yb one and damage by one to make them look less like LL. guess that would make many people happy. this increases their heat efficiency but lowers their alphadamage.

[zagibu]

That's pretty clever of you Lily, trying to sneak in further clan laser buffs in a thread complaining about them.

[Yosharian]

It's hilarious that people are still arguing that Clan lasers are underpowered. I use them regularly and absolutely destroy people, and I'm not that good of a player. Clan lasers are unbelievably good. Extended brawling is probably their only weakness. Heaven forbid that they have any weaknesses at all.

[Ursh]

Zoid, on 14 February 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

Because being able to load up 42 damage at 450m or less for 6 tons and 6 critical slots is so bad you guys.

Clan autocannons are slightly worse than IS ones but clan lasers are just miles ahead of IS lasers. You know what the IS 'mechs with ridiculous laser quirks feel like? Clan 'mechs.

They feel a lot better, actually. None of the clan mechs can do what the more outrageously quirked energy IS mechs can do.