322 replies to this topic

[Dock Steward]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 February 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Obviously not if they are not doing what needs to be done to win.

To be honest, maybe it's me, but I have no idea what that means...

[Kristov Kerensky]

Dock Steward, on 17 February 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

I think they think about winning just a little bit more than you're giving them credit for.

They do what is the fastest, swarm. I've been in PUG CW drops where we simply broke the swarm's first rush, guess what? The 12 man Clan team we faced had NO backup plan, just constant swarm with Mechs that were not appropiate to that at all after the first wave. NO tactical planning, no backup planning, no strategy but SWARM! It works when it works, when it doesn't, no one seems to have a backup, at least I haven't seen one in any CW drop to date from either side of the gates.

YOU give them more credit than they deserve, swarming isn't a tactic, it's mob rule, no one wants to find out where the enemy is, what their allocations are, what their armament is like, they just want to KILL! I've seen 2 distinct tactics used by Attackers, SWARM and take out objective or SWARM and spawn camp. That's it, literally that is ALL they do. Break up the first wave and you've usually won as Defense, overrun the Defense on the first wave and you've won as Attacker. Defense is about the same in reverse, break the swarm and spawn camp, not much else, sitting and waiting isn't done, people want to KILL NOW!!!!!!!

Seriously, want to see some real gaming going on, get PGI to set resources, losses on the battlefield mean something, not just another KDR/WLR alteration, but actually removes tonnage you have usable on your next attack or defense. Doubt we'll see that, but that's where you see REAL game play happening. Otherwise, we'll just see the zerging continue, there's no cost, so why not, everyone just wants to get their kills ASAP after all.

[Dock Steward]

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 February 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

They do what is the fastest, swarm. I've been in PUG CW drops where we simply broke the swarm's first rush, guess what? The 12 man Clan team we faced had NO backup plan, just constant swarm with Mechs that were not appropiate to that at all after the first wave. NO tactical planning, no backup planning, no strategy but SWARM! It works when it works, when it doesn't, no one seems to have a backup, at least I haven't seen one in any CW drop to date from either side of the gates.

YOU give them more credit than they deserve, swarming isn't a tactic, it's mob rule, no one wants to find out where the enemy is, what their allocations are, what their armament is like, they just want to KILL! I've seen 2 distinct tactics used by Attackers, SWARM and take out objective or SWARM and spawn camp. That's it, literally that is ALL they do. Break up the first wave and you've usually won as Defense, overrun the Defense on the first wave and you've won as Attacker. Defense is about the same in reverse, break the swarm and spawn camp, not much else, sitting and waiting isn't done, people want to KILL NOW!!!!!!!

Seriously, want to see some real gaming going on, get PGI to set resources, losses on the battlefield mean something, not just another KDR/WLR alteration, but actually removes tonnage you have usable on your next attack or defense. Doubt we'll see that, but that's where you see REAL game play happening. Otherwise, we'll just see the zerging continue, there's no cost, so why not, everyone just wants to get their kills ASAP after all.

I struggle to see how any of this relates to bracket builds vs. specialized ones...

[Joseph Mallan]

Dock Steward, on 17 February 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

To be honest, maybe it's me, but I have no idea what that means...

It may be you. Teamwork wins. The best builds in teh game don't mean a thing if your team does not fight together. The Mech in my bays with the most wins is my Hellslinger. 1 PPC, 3 LRM5 4 Mediums. It is not teh most powerful, it does not have the highest KDr, but it has the best Win loss. I support in it. I do put damage where the team needs it not where I will get the kills.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 February 2015 - 12:11 PM.

[Krivvan]

Metus regem, on 17 February 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Flanking works pretty well in MWO...

I've messed up a few teams, simply by slipping in behind them with a my Timber D build with cERPPC's and 6xcSRM6 packs, or hell even using a Locust 1V with just an ERLL in their back feild can cause confusion and brake their ranks, letting the rest of my team capatilize on their panic, beacuse of a single mech in their back feild.

Flanking with Light mechs works well in MWO. Flanking with slower mechs is a bad idea that can work out well, but it working out well depends on the enemy team screwing up. If the enemy team plays it right, they simply push into one of the flanks and take very few losses for you losing 6 very quickly.

[HARDKOR]

The opinions of those who win the most are the most valid, in this discussion.

All I see here is the middle of the pack trying to argue with the top of the heap and it's kind of ridiculous, IMHO.

[Dock Steward]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 February 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

It may be you. Teamwork wins. The best builds in teh game don't mean a thing if your team does not fight together. The Mech in my bays with the most wins is my Hellslinger. 1 PPC, 3 LRM5 4 Mediums. It is not teh most powerful, it does not have the highest KDr, but it has the best Win loss. I support in it. I do put damage where the team needs it not where I will get the kills.

And now we add the teamwork variable into the mix, eh?

Okay, well as someone already said, (ability to work as a team being equal for both sides) who is going to win in a match: the team with the meta builds or the team of frankenbuilds? Answer however you like, I think the community knows the real answer...

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Dock Steward, on 17 February 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

And now we add the teamwork variable into the mix, eh?

Okay, well as someone already said, (ability to work as a team being equal for both sides) who is going to win in a match: the team with the meta builds or the team of frankenbuilds? Answer however you like, I think the community knows the real answer...

The team that kills most efficiently and snowballs their opening advantage

[Dock Steward]

DV McKenna, on 17 February 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

The team that kills most efficiently and snowballs their opening advantage

And who kills most efficiently the majority of the time? The PPFLD meta builds or the Frankenbuilds?

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Dock Steward, on 17 February 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

And who kills most efficiently the majority of the time? The PPFLD meta builds or the Frankenbuilds?

Could be either, although you would hope the meta builds would win out, but never underestimate peoples ability to make a stupid mistake that begins the domino effect.

[Dock Steward]

DV McKenna, on 17 February 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Could be either, although you would hope the meta builds would win out, but never underestimate peoples ability to make a stupid mistake that begins the domino effect.

Look, I'm certainly not going to tell you that any particular outcome is guaranteed, but if something works better than something else, you can bet our playerbase as a whole will find it, favor it, and run it into the ground until it gets nerfed. I'm not saying meta builds are inherently better than frankenbuilds because "better" is a matter of personal taste. However, if we are going to argue effectiveness, well...the community seems to have a favorite....

[cSand]

Boating will always happen because it's the easiest way to play. Two button mode, group or chain fire all your boated weapons.

Mixed builds require more skill but have greater potential for effectiveness.

Boat builds will generally yield decent effectiveness for even low-level pilots.

Edited by cSand, 17 February 2015 - 12:42 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Dock Steward, on 17 February 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Look, I'm certainly not going to tell you that any particular outcome is guaranteed, but if something works better than something else, you can bet our playerbase as a whole will find it, favor it, and run it into the ground until it gets nerfed. I'm not saying meta builds are inherently better than frankenbuilds because "better" is a matter of personal taste. However, if we are going to argue effectiveness, well...the community seems to have a favorite....

There is too much at play to give a concrete answer, in the perfect world between two identically skilled teams you would expect the meta based builds to win the majority of the time.
But it is rare to find two identically skilled teams

[Dock Steward]

DV McKenna, on 17 February 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

There is too much at play to give a concrete answer, in the perfect world between two identically skilled teams you would expect the meta based builds to win the majority of the time.
But it is rare to find two identically skilled teams

Whaaa!!

You dare question the great and mighty Elo?!

[Deathlike]

How about we name example builds that show how a "mixed build" is superior... then to be argued by people who don't use it as to why it is bad...

That way, we can have a discussion on frankenbuilds vs decent quality (possibly meta) builds. Otherwise, it's just generalizing about stuff that sounds good on paper, but fails when tested in higher level play.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Dock Steward, on 17 February 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

I struggle to see how any of this relates to bracket builds vs. specialized ones...

Which is also why you can't see the teamwork issue as well. Specialized builds are good for the Swarm tactics, just look at what's being used in CW, almost exclusively specialized builds, and they pay for that when they hit an opponent who stops that Swarm. They are specialists, no one has something to counter with, so they lose. Every time we've broken the Swarm, it was due to having a few specialist builds and lots of rounded builds so they can counter anything tossed at them and NOT have to rely on a single approach, it's rather what the 'bracket build' as you call them are designed for and it's actually what DID and DOES get used in BTech TT gaming, at least by the people who play something other than a single 1v1 in Solaris. Running lance vs lance or star vs star or higher, you do NOT go with all specialists, you lost before your Mechs hit the ground if you do.

Tactics, don't see them in some online games at all, at least nothing beyond the standard swarm tactic used in most FPS games where the most kills in X time frame wins. Battlefield 1942 mod Desert Combat, the team I was with were the #1 team, our skills as players were above average but none of us were THE top dog solo. Our tactics and ability to carry them out, THAT was what made us #1 and kept us there until we went to BF2. I ran a team in Tribes that was the same way, we had 1 guy on the team who was a top dog in the 1v1, but the rest of us were just above average, our tactics and ability to carry them out made us the top team. Team games work differently WHEN the game is set up to allow it. MWO isn't set up for that currently, not sure it ever will be, but if PGI really wants to make a go at the e-sports thing, they better get off their collective asses and make a game type and maps that allow tactics to be used besides Swarm.

And 2 equally skilled teams, one meta the other rounded, the winner will be the team with the best tactics and ability to follow them through. Meta is NOT the best, it's just the most efficient in a particular setting, that's something to keep in mind.

[Dock Steward]

Deathlike, on 17 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

How about we name example builds that show how a "mixed build" is superior... then to be argued by people who don't use it as to why it is bad...

That way, we can have a discussion on frankenbuilds vs decent quality (possibly meta) builds. Otherwise, it's just generalizing about stuff that sounds good on paper, but fails when tested in higher level play.

Specificity in a discussion like this is always helpful, but the problem is we're trying to compare a whole team of frankenbuilds vs a team of meta, and that's a lot of examples to come up with. Unfortunately comparing things on a single mech vs single mech basis doesn't really prove anyone's point.

We probably should try though...

[Deathlike]

Dock Steward, on 17 February 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Specificity in a discussion like this is always helpful, but the problem is we're trying to compare a whole team of frankenbuilds vs a team of meta, and that's a lot of examples to come up with. Unfortunately comparing things on a single mech vs single mech basis doesn't really prove anyone's point.

We probably should try though...

You don't have to have a full meta example build - you could always reference an equivalent build based on the frankenmech design (removing some unneeded weapons - adding more useful/productive alternative options) and see how much more effective a player can be.

It's not hard to turn a stock mech build to be "a useful improved stock mech build".

[xXBagheeraXx]

I always mix up my loadouts and have backup weapons. even my gauss firebrand carries 2 medium lasers...

I suppose my "best" team support mech would be my Warhawk B. 2 er large lasers, 3 lrm 15's, about 1600+ rounds of ammo, and 1 narc, 1 tag. I try to sneak up on people narc them, laser them then drop back into cover while they are narced and rain lrms on them. This build has single handedly ruined entire teams. Nobody really brings narcs on pubs, and certaintly nobody expects a masacari to narc them in the face. The narcs are just for me and people who try to break lock or peekaboo to get around my lrms, but i have seen more and more that pubbies go OH HEY LOOK THAT GUYS NARCED KEEEL KEEEEEELL!! so along with my steady stream of lrm 15's they get hit with every tom **** and harry on my team thats packing missiles...and I almost always narc assaults first....so even with ecm if i have just a few decent assaults on my team to take hits after my armors a bit roughed up this thing can really help out a team.

Dakka whales just seem silly to me. you have to stare at people to get your damage in. anyone you arent shooting at is ruining your CT.

Large laser stalkers are nice till you run into mordor....

But generally speaking the builds you mentioned are specialist builds. Mixing your range on weapons is a GOOD idea, but there will always be games where you cannot bring your full firepower to bear...for example I bought a king crab...my initial loadout was 4 er mediums, ams a standard 325 endo and TONS of ammo for everything. THAT BUILD SUCKED...getting close enough o bring the full firepower to bear just got my armor shredded, and at long range 2 gauss are nice but the damage vs assaults negligible. Dropped it down to a 300 and put 2 er large lasers on and poof. its a murder machine at long range. This game favors specialized builds over all else...If you are packing an ac20 go al short ranged...if you ar packing 2 gauss, go all long range...if you are packing Uacs...they suck in pairs, boat em..4 to 6 will do...do you see where this is going?

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 17 February 2015 - 01:05 PM.

[Dock Steward]

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 February 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

snip

This is going to make me seem like I'm just trolling, I'm sure, but I really can't respond to this. You go off on this tangent regarding swarming and tactics and I just don't think that has much to do with frankenbuilds vs meta builds. This discussion belongs to everyone, so, of course, talk about what you like, but I'm talking about frankenbuilds vs meta builds and why meta builds are most often more effective. I could give point after point on my feelings, but, honestly, I don't think I need to. Look at what people run for builds. Are we not in agreement that most players run what we shall call "non-frankenbuilds?" Backup weapons are one thing, but look at how few "balanced builds" are being played. Now ask yourself why that is. Easier to pilot? Maybe, but if easier doesn't equate to more success (cbills, XP, wins) then being easy won't draw people. Why are people drawn to those builds?

Because they work, and they work better than the other options at the moment. You really think there's a win button in the form of frankenbuilds out there, and people aren't using it because...