322 replies to this topic

[Koniks]

You're neglecting the fact that real life procurement is subject to both finite resources, inter-service arguments over roles and resources, and politics. Which means that while the armed forces might prefer specialization, they have to live with something else.

None of that is a problem in MechWarrior.

[Variant1]

I know how you feel OP. This problem i personally think is attributed with the cooldown and heat gen quirks. With cooldown and heat gen quirks its much easier to boat weapons(which ghost heat was made to prevent) there fore you see more of the same weapon strapped on a mech. At the same time though there is really not much you can do since anyone is allowed to customize their mech the way they want to, which is not a bad thing per say but i guess if thats how some people want to build their mechs i say let them. Perhaps overtime those people will eventually get bored of those builds. This game is all about customization and this is how mechwarrior is generally played and its not that bad, its just all about preference. Maybe another problem attributed to this is perhaps when having different weapons you either have to give them a different weapon group or spend extra tonnage for ammo. Or it could simply be the competitive meta that drives these kind of builds since they are generally good or maybe less team dependant. In the end the best advice i could give you is too just keep playing, if you using a mixed loadout then at least you are being original a jack of all trades but a master of none .

edit:wow just realized how stupid my comment was my apologies. Lets look it at this way a generalist and specialized builds are both balanced equally, if you were to put them both against each other they are both evenly matched. If a generalist team were to loose mech(s) they would still be good at all range just not specific where if a specialist team were too loose mech(s) they lost a specific strength making them vulnerable to specific range that the generalist team can exploit. In the end its all about preference, do you excel at one specific role on your team or do you want to be a jack of all trades master of none?

Edited by Variant1, 18 February 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mizeur, on 18 February 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

You're neglecting the fact that real life procurement is subject to both finite resources, inter-service arguments over roles and resources, and politics. Which means that while the armed forces might prefer specialization, they have to live with something else.

None of that is a problem in MechWarrior.

I don't know about that so much, since it's a trend with all major military forces around the globe, moving away from the specialized vehicles and going for more multi-role vehicles. Modern weapon systems and targeting systems allow for a single vehicle to do what it used to take multiple vehicles to do, so it's the smarter choice.

An A10 that runs into AA of any sort is in a bad way, it has very limited anti-AA options and that's WITH major upgrades to those systems over the past few decades. It's just a good aircraft for avoiding anything but the ground. Does it's job with spectacular success, and most ground forces in the Middle East who request CAS specifically ASK for the A10s because it's psy-op value is massive. There is nothing like hearing that roar of those twin turbines followed by the bark of that GAU-8 spitting hell to make every bad guy within 20 miles go to ground and wish they'd been born somewhere else. An F16 can take out the ground forces just as effectively, even more so with guided munitions, but they lack that psy-op effect and the grunts calling for that CAS know it. The Tiger tank of WWII was a similar vehicle, Allied troops would mess themselves when one was sighted, but the things were horrible for anything but attacking another tank, which nothing else could match them for, except for Mustangs, P38s, Spitfires, etc. Multi-role aircraft in WWII were more effective at killing armor than specialized armor killing armored vehicles. Same is true today, multi-role vehicles tend to do better, since they not only take out a variety of targets, but they also tend to have much better survival rates for their occupants.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mizeur, on 18 February 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

You'll note that they didn't just equip every soldier with a rifle, a SAW, an M16 grenade launcher, a mortar, and a .50 cal sniper rifle. Or a Zorg weapon that does all of that.

True. but you do have to accept that as an Individual you have to know how to use them all even if you don't carry one. Plus each fire team Has one of each. So the smallest formation is able to do a lot of different fighting styles.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 February 2015 - 09:15 AM.

[Dock Steward]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 February 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

True. but you do have to accept that as an Individual you have to know how to use them all even if you don't carry one. Plus each fire team Has one of each. So the smallest formation is able to do a lot of different fighting styles.

Oh, so like, individuals are specialists but the team is balanced overall?

[Reitrix]

Sarlic, on 17 February 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

trimmed OP cos surely people read it

Personally, my best 'Mechs, the ones that get the most damage/kills per match, are my mixed loadouts.
Take, for example, my Dire Wolf. With a Firepower rating of 110, mixing Lasers, Gauss Rifles and LRMs.
Its highly effective in all ranges, able to provide LRM cover, sniper fire and upclose brawl power.

However, focused builds, such as the Jagerbomb, or the LRM heavy Catapult A1 are equally useful on the battlefield for specific roles, roles that *need* to be covered by someone on your team.
The focused Boat Builds (like ACs and LLS, etc also have the fastest TTK.
These Boat Builds also tend to score VERY high damage due to all of their damage happening in one single shot, hitting one single location with all of it.

And therein lies the problem.
Currently, in MWO, we have too few Targets, too little Time and too much Ammo.
Additionally, the most glaring issue is the lack of objectives.
We have Kill Some Dudes or a Base, Kill Some Dudes with more Bases and Just Kill Some Dudes.
The overarching theme here is to .. .Kill Some Dudes.
if you don't Kill Some Dudes, you don't get paid. You don't get paid, you don't buy 'mechs/gear.
And thats no fun.

We also have the issue of TTK. Which is caused by the ability to land every shot on your targets CT if you can aim even sort of center mass.
Due to the above, If you put your head out of cover and DON'T have shoulder level guns, you lose most of your Assault CT armor just breaking cover, Or worse, die outright because 12 Dudes have their Super Alphas aimed at one of the very few places where you can break cover.
And the maps funnel all 24 players into a kill box with chest high cover on either side.
The few maps with multiple approach lanes can be scouted by an Assault 'mech because of the wide, clear sight lines *everywhere*.
To compound the issue of Scouting, finding the Enemy has 1 of 3 possible outcomes;
-Turn corner into all 12 Dudes because Herd Safety and are dead instantly.
-Step over a hill and spot the Enemy Herd 2000 Meters away.
-Run screaming past that gap in cover with your head between your legs at 171kph and survive with some armor left.

In order for people to want to take a mixed build, we need to have objectives in play for those builds to be useful FOR.
But not just Objectives, we need the Terrain in our Maps to have much fewer of these wide long clear sight lines that promote boating various large caliber, long range guns so that someone with multiple types of weapons is more effective than that one guy who boated up Gauss Rifles or AC40.

Naturally, of course specialized builds will be useful in the right situations, just not *ALL* situations as they currently are. We also need some sort of protection for our CTs and Side Torsos because twisting only helps at close range. At long range, you just shoot them in the back when they inevitably twist too far or wait for them to turn to take their shot at you.
Twisting rarely helps these days anyway due to the amount of damage that gets placed on the target at the moment of impact, even DoT weapons.

Anyways, 5am rant off.

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 February 2015 - 03:32 AM, said:

Are we flying?(Missiles Autocannons and/or Machine guns)
Are we sailing? (Cannons and missiles)

Ground forces do have some "special" units.

But a Infantry battalion was 3 rifle Companies, One Weapons company, a support company Maybe some arty... We never dealt directly with arty during my tour.
A fire team was the smallest "formation" in the Corps
2 riflemen(M-16) (Sustained fire)
a Grenadier(M16 with a grenade launcher) (Sustained fire and breaching)
a SAWman.(hosing the area)

Three of these teams per squad and 3 squads per platoon. 3 Platoons per Company Plus a weapons platoon.

3 ER large lasers are good at all ranges but do not give you indirect fire ability, which would allow you the ability to assist a team mate in trouble 600 m way behind 3 ridge lines.

You're still comparing our mechs, war machines, to platoons of infantry soldiers.

We are not flying or sailing, so let's use military ground vehicles!

I readily admit I am not any kind of expert of military vehicles but are you saying ground vehicles aren't/haven't been built for specialized purposes or theatres of war?


Would you say that these three different vehicles/machines have specific functions and purposes that are specialized?













My SHK-2K is designed to provide mid to long range direct fire support, part of my job in it is to make sure I have positioning to do that. I take a 300XL engine in mine for the speed I want to play at (some use a 250 STD instead).

A 55 ton mech doesn't have much leeway in areas it can sacrifice.

In order to add just a single LRM 10 I would need to sacrifice a minimum of 5 tons for the weapon, 2 or 3 tons for ammo and 4 or 5 crit slots. 8 tons is more than half of my primary weapons that's no longer "back up".


If I made that sacrifice, does one LRM 10 really mean anything? Is it worth losing both speed and probably one of my ERLLAS and also having less cooling?

My opinion is that it's not worth it.



Lastly, to be brutally honest, if a team mate is so far out of position that I would need LRMs to support them - they most likely deserve to die.

Failure is a great teacher.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 18 February 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

...
My SHK-2K is designed to provide mid to long range direct fire support, part of my job in it is to make sure I have positioning to do that. I take a 300XL engine in mine for the speed I want to play at (some use a 250 STD instead).

A 55 ton mech doesn't have much leeway in areas it can sacrifice.

In order to add just a single LRM 10 I would need to sacrifice a minimum of 5 tons for the weapon, 2 or 3 tons for ammo and 4 or 5 crit slots. 8 tons is more than half of my primary weapons that's no longer "back up".


If I made that sacrifice, does one LRM 10 really mean anything? Is it worth losing both speed and probably one of my ERLLAS and also having less cooling?
...

Sorry for the sidebar, but couldn't you squeeze in an XL325 on that Shad?

SHD-2K

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 18 February 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

Sorry for the sidebar, but couldn't you squeeze in an XL325 on that Shad?

SHD-2K

IIRC I have 18 DHS, I haven't played it since the 3x Large family GH change - but I prefer more cooling over an extra 10kph or so (I ran it with a 325 for a while).




EDIT: I dug up my smurfy build on my GDrive.

I forgot I had switched to a 305 to use the extra tonnage.


SHK-2K

Edited by Ultimatum X, 18 February 2015 - 10:11 AM.

[RussianWolf]

Competitive players and wannabes will Min/Max and boat. They are the ones that look at the quirks, the modules and pods and build the mechs based on all the math. They likely spend more time in the lab than they do in game (I've seen some of these guys kill 12 mechs in 2 minutes with only a lance (the rest of us were supporting cast with minimal damage).

Casual players would rather see longer play times. This is why Stock Mech Monday exists even though I don't participate (I would if they would make it a mode with rewards, heck I play many mechs in the public queue in stock load out until I grind enough cbills to bother modding).

There is nothing wrong with the competitive and wannabe players playing their way and there is nothing wrong with the casual players playing their way.

And be careful saying that a build is ineffective. I run a stock Atlas S that gets me an average 700 damage and 3.5 kills per match. But then, I'm crazy like that.

[Dock Steward]

RussianWolf, on 18 February 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Competitive players and wannabes will Min/Max and boat. They are the ones that look at the quirks, the modules and pods and build the mechs based on all the math. They likely spend more time in the lab than they do in game (I've seen some of these guys kill 12 mechs in 2 minutes with only a lance (the rest of us were supporting cast with minimal damage).

Casual players would rather see longer play times. This is why Stock Mech Monday exists even though I don't participate (I would if they would make it a mode with rewards, heck I play many mechs in the public queue in stock load out until I grind enough cbills to bother modding).

There is nothing wrong with the competitive and wannabe players playing their way and there is nothing wrong with the casual players playing their way.

And be careful saying that a build is ineffective. I run a stock Atlas S that gets me an average 700 damage and 3.5 kills per match. But then, I'm crazy like that.

Or you play at an Elo level where such things are possible...just saying.

[RussianWolf]

Dock Steward, on 18 February 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

Or you play at an Elo level where such things are possible...just saying.

I regularly see some of the top 10 from the tournaments. So I guess they are slumming it.

[Dock Steward]

RussianWolf, on 18 February 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

I regularly see some of the top 10 from the tournaments. So I guess they are slumming it.

I couldn't say. But we have separate Elo's for each weight class. That could make a difference. I can't know for sure, but I would wager that my Elo in a heavy is very different from my Elo in a light.

[Brody319]

Supporting your team doesn't pay for the increased Hydrogen tax.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ultimatum X, on 18 February 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

You're still comparing our mechs, war machines, to platoons of infantry soldiers.

We are not flying or sailing, so let's use military ground vehicles!

I readily admit I am not any kind of expert of military vehicles but are you saying ground vehicles aren't/haven't been built for specialized purposes or theatres of war?


Would you say that these three different vehicles/machines have specific functions and purposes that are specialized?













My SHK-2K is designed to provide mid to long range direct fire support, part of my job in it is to make sure I have positioning to do that. I take a 300XL engine in mine for the speed I want to play at (some use a 250 STD instead).

A 55 ton mech doesn't have much leeway in areas it can sacrifice.

In order to add just a single LRM 10 I would need to sacrifice a minimum of 5 tons for the weapon, 2 or 3 tons for ammo and 4 or 5 crit slots. 8 tons is more than half of my primary weapons that's no longer "back up".


If I made that sacrifice, does one LRM 10 really mean anything? Is it worth losing both speed and probably one of my ERLLAS and also having less cooling?

My opinion is that it's not worth it.



Lastly, to be brutally honest, if a team mate is so far out of position that I would need LRMs to support them - they most likely deserve to die.

Failure is a great teacher.

You do recognize that the tank has 2 weapons The cannon and the MG.Why would it do that? It also has the ability to carry other equipment/weapons.

And yes. 1 LRM10 does make a difference.

Like having one M-203 to lob grenades over walls.

Dock Steward, on 18 February 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Oh, so like, individuals are specialists but the team is balanced overall?

Nope. the regular soldier is not a specialist they are generalists.

[Dock Steward]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 February 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Nope. the regular soldier is not a specialist they are generalists.

Oh, they carry all the weapons?

[Joseph Mallan]

Dock Steward, on 18 February 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

Oh, they carry all the weapons?

Let see. M-16s are in the hands of most Soldiers in a squad. and there are 3 M-203s and 3 SAWs 9unless they have been replaced). I can pick up any of those weapons and use them. Don't play stupid, its unbecoming,

[Metus regem]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 February 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Let see. M-16s are in the hands of most Soldiers in a squad. and there are 3 M-203s and 3 SAWs 9unless they have been replaced). I can pick up any of those weapons and use them. Don't play stupid, its unbecoming,

The nice part is the M16 and the M249 (SAW) both use the same ammo, so that does make it easier on supply lines... still the M60 is a better support weapon if you ask me. the 5.56mm of the M16 and M249 just lack the killing power of the 7.62mm...

[Dock Steward]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 February 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Let see. M-16s are in the hands of most Soldiers in a squad. and there are 3 M-203s and 3 SAWs 9unless they have been replaced). I can pick up any of those weapons and use them. Don't play stupid, its unbecoming,

Being a grunt doesn't make one a "generalist."

[Joseph Mallan]

Dock Steward, on 18 February 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

Being a grunt doesn't make one a "generalist."

it did during my service. I was taught to pick up any platoon weapon and use it.