322 replies to this topic

[Sarlic]

Which with running events mixed builds gets obsoleted and your team gets overwhelmed with the so called specialists.

This no fun for both sides.

Edited by Sarlic, 21 February 2015 - 12:47 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

2 Weapon Groups is effective
3 and your starting to push it
4 and you have an ineffective mech

[Joseph Mallan]

DV McKenna, on 21 February 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

2 Weapon Groups is effective
3 and your starting to push it
4 and you have an ineffective mech

3 groups for me is normally
1) Main weapon/long range
2) Energy
3) ammo dependent secondary.
4) combo of 1 & 3 or 2 & 3.

My Razor Naga has 12 buttons on teh side.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 February 2015 - 05:02 AM.

[Sarlic]

DV McKenna, on 21 February 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

2 Weapon Groups is effective
3 and your starting to push it
4 and you have an ineffective mech

Thats no argument. I though MW was always the hardcore game to have the learning curve. People are lazy.

5. You are flat out wrong, and it indicates you use vomit builds.

Using two LL on one group is one thing, using ML on group two is another thing. Instead of four LL divided on two groups is nothing more then a vomit one one specific range. See the variety?
Using a LRM rack is on 4 is another thing because it has a range of 1000 metres.

Whatever man, come back with a decent argument.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

3 groups for me is normally
1) Main weapon/long range
2) Energy
3) ammo dependent secondary.
4) combo of 1 & 3 or 2 & 3.

My Razor Naga has 12 buttons on teh side.

So does mine, but 4 differing range groups of weapons is unwieldy and sub optimal. 3 works.

Sarlic, on 21 February 2015 - 05:16 AM, said:

Thats no argument. I though MW was always the hardcore game to have the learning curve. People are lazy.

5. You are flat out wrong, and it indicates you use vomit builds.

Using two LL on one group is one thing, using ML on group two is another thing. Instead of four LL divided on two groups is nothing more then a vomit one one specific range. See the variety?
Using a LRM rack is on 4 is another thing because it has a range of 1000 metres.

Whatever man, come back with a decent argument.

That is an argument and your terribly generalist, today im a laser vomitter, a gauss sniper, a AC5 quirkener, a UAC boater.
In the past i've brought about an LRMapocolypse or 3, a gausscat sniper, an SRM/ML brawling fatlass or Centiurion, going further back i've been a ML swayback or a small laser swayback, or a Jenner with ML that way back when used to be able to solo assault after assault.

Ie: I've been whatever works and whatever is best throughout this games lifecycle.

Having 4 groups of weapons with different effective ranges is inefficient and a bad mech build, there is no reason to run bizarre mechs that require such.

Bit like the King Crab i saw this morning with a Gauss, AC20 , 1LL, 1 LRM something...

[Kristov Kerensky]

DV McKenna, on 21 February 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

So does mine, but 4 differing range groups of weapons is unwieldy and sub optimal. 3 works.




That is an argument and your terribly generalist, today im a laser vomitter, a gauss sniper, a AC5 quirkener, a UAC boater.
In the past i've brought about an LRMapocolypse or 3, a gausscat sniper, an SRM/ML brawling fatlass or Centiurion, going further back i've been a ML swayback or a small laser swayback, or a Jenner with ML that way back when used to be able to solo assault after assault.

Ie: I've been whatever works and whatever is best throughout this games lifecycle.

Having 4 groups of weapons with different effective ranges is inefficient and a bad mech build, there is no reason to run bizarre mechs that require such.

Bit like the King Crab i saw this morning with a Gauss, AC20 , 1LL, 1 LRM something...

You play a solo game in other words, where your personal score is all that matters? Or is juggling more than 2 weapons groups too complicated? I'm not sure which of those you are actually saying, it's hard to tell.

Since I can LRM a laservomit at range without having to expose myself, while still having 3 other weapon groups AND a TAG, I'd say my 4 groups are pretty nice to have around. I can also deal with the Lights that get in close with my ml and mguns, even toss in some LL of some flavor, without overheating, and still pop off some LRMs at your laservomit. At this point, I have 2 of your team's Mechs tied up trying to deal with 1 Mech, allowing my team to take advantage of that. Doesn't happen most of the time in PUGs, but when it does, it's a blast. Happens more in team drops, funny how that works huh?

Doing anything but CW, you are not even close to playing competitively anymore in the ques, and CW, it's a toss up whether you will be or not, since a 12 man can go up against solo/small group in CW, sometimes they get surprised, usually they get a nice fat payday..

[Impossible Wasabi]

Kristov Kerensky, on 21 February 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Since I can LRM a laservomit at range without having to expose myself, while still having 3 other weapon groups AND a TAG, I'd say my 4 groups are pretty nice to have around. I can also deal with the Lights that get in close with my ml and mguns, even toss in some LL of some flavor, without overheating, and still pop off some LRMs at your laservomit. At this point, I have 2 of your team's Mechs tied up trying to deal with 1 Mech, allowing my team to take advantage of that. Doesn't happen most of the time in PUGs, but when it does, it's a blast. Happens more in team drops, funny how that works huh?

So you are going to manage to keep LRMs hitting a target (which means maintaining a lock), while fighting a light mech at close range with a Medium Laser (the Space Pope is not sure if you mean plural here or not), some Machine Guns and occasionally firing a Large Laser?

Would it be possible to see some video evidence of how exactly this works out for you? By this The Space Pope means he would like to see where you are essentially dueling a light mech and at the same time firing missiles at another mech which is at range.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ultimately, the Space Pope is confused by the arguments that "specialized builds" don't allow teamwork or that they are somehow less efficient in highly competitive environments.

Maybe it is related to ELO brackets? Because assuredly, the Space Pope has not noticed teams that focus on specialized mechs (that are very good at certain) things suffer. If that were the case, he would expect to see most of the top comp units getting rolled with great frequency.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 21 February 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[Jeon Ji Yoon]

It does really seem contradictive to what PGI wants. They say they would like to have a brawler friendly game but with the quirk system and the super restrictive omnimech system we have either minimalist builds with 2 weapons or huge weapon boats with tons of the same weapon. It is a little sad but if you do not conform to these things you will be at the disadvantage every game.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Kristov Kerensky, on 21 February 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

You play a solo game in other words, where your personal score is all that matters? Or is juggling more than 2 weapons groups too complicated? I'm not sure which of those you are actually saying, it's hard to tell.

Since I can LRM a laservomit at range without having to expose myself, while still having 3 other weapon groups AND a TAG, I'd say my 4 groups are pretty nice to have around. I can also deal with the Lights that get in close with my ml and mguns, even toss in some LL of some flavor, without overheating, and still pop off some LRMs at your laservomit. At this point, I have 2 of your team's Mechs tied up trying to deal with 1 Mech, allowing my team to take advantage of that. Doesn't happen most of the time in PUGs, but when it does, it's a blast. Happens more in team drops, funny how that works huh?

Doing anything but CW, you are not even close to playing competitively anymore in the ques, and CW, it's a toss up whether you will be or not, since a 12 man can go up against solo/small group in CW, sometimes they get surprised, usually they get a nice fat payday..

I play a game where winning is all that matters, and i will take what is best to do that.

And that is specialized builds (meta) not taking a random hodgepodge of weapons trying to be everything and nothing.


Period.

The True Space Pope, on 21 February 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

So you are going to manage to keep LRMs hitting a target (which means maintaining a lock), while fighting a light mech at close range with a Medium Laser (the Space Pope is not sure if you mean plural here or not), some Machine Guns and occasionally firing a Large Laser?

Would it be possible to see some video evidence of how exactly this works out for you? By this The Space Pope means he would like to see where you are essentially dueling a light mech and at the same time firing missiles at another mech which is at range.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ultimately, the Space Pope is confused by the arguments that "specialized builds" don't allow teamwork or that they are somehow less efficient in highly competitive environments.

Maybe it is related to ELO brackets? Because assuredly, the Space Pope has not noticed teams that focus on specialized mechs (that are very good at certain) things suffer. If that were the case, he would expect to see most of the top comp units getting rolled with great frequency.

Some people like to fantasize, embellish things.

Edited by DV McKenna, 21 February 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I've never actually taken any video in MWO, until recently my system would bog down if I tried, and I just haven't played much since I upgraded my video. Destiny and now CoD:AW Zombies actually takes more of my time for gaming, especially weekends, I'm on call and don't do multiplayer because I can suddenly go afk for hours without warning, that's so unfair to anyone I would drop with, I don't do it.

The trick is, having boosted sensors and a direct LoS that's protected and TAG or a teammate with TAG, a direct LoS, or a UAV up. I can acquire and maintain lock for a few salvos while dealing with a Light trying to play assassin. I don't target the Light, I use only direct fire weapons, lasers, mguns or ac, and I simply manuever the entire Mech, not twist and turn in place trying to get a hit while not moving, that's suicide Lights eat you alive, gotta move that bulk around, give em targets you can afford to have hit. Tank driving in BF games taught me that trick

[FupDup]

On my Shadow Cat, I'm going to try a 2 LPL or 2 ERLL + 6 MG mixed build. Perhaps 2 ERLL + some missiles (2 SRM6 or 2 SSRM4?). Or be a 3 LRM10 + 2 ERML missile boat just to be a complete moron. 3 ASRM6 + 2 MPL?

Edited by FupDup, 21 February 2015 - 10:13 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

FupDup, on 21 February 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

On my Shadow Cat, I'm going to try a 2 LPL or 2 ERLL + 6 MG mixed build. Perhaps 2 ERLL + some missiles (2 SRM6 or 2 SSRM4?). Or be a 3 LRM10 missile boat just to be a complete moron.

I'm going to see how MASC works and build from there, it COULD make for a nasty brawler assassin, it may make for something else, no idea yet. ECM, high speed, enough tonnage for a nasty point blank alpha and out hit and run build could be very nice.

[Joseph Mallan]

DV McKenna, on 21 February 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

So does mine, but 4 differing range groups of weapons is unwieldy and sub optimal. 3 works.

Range groups no... but specific weapon combos to work around heat. Maybe.

[Sarlic]

DV McKenna, on 21 February 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

Having 4 groups of weapons with different effective ranges is inefficient and a bad mech build, there is no reason to run bizarre mechs that require such.

Bit like the King Crab i saw this morning with a Gauss, AC20 , 1LL, 1 LRM something...

If that's the way to keep you boating, fine by me. But don't come up with those posts like you said in post #202.
You fail to take the pilot skill into account. It's not the (by pilots views) 'infeffiecient' or a bad builds by generalists. It really depends on how some people have build the mech in the first place. Generalist do have optimized build(s), but are not the specialist at all. I am not saying you should pick a mech and make it beyond efficient to play it as a generalist. Or to slap something together and play it as a generalist. (Your crab example is a long range build only)
Some people like you don't seem to get it.

It's a teambased game, not a ''specialist'' game.

Generalist arent made to make kills, it's made to cause damage. And if it's get the kill, then it's a good furtune.

FupDup, on 21 February 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

On my Shadow Cat, I'm going to try a 2 LPL or 2 ERLL + 6 MG mixed build. Perhaps 2 ERLL + some missiles (2 SRM6 or 2 SSRM4?). Or be a 3 LRM10 + 2 ERML missile boat just to be a complete moron. 3 ASRM6 + 2 MPL?

Please, if you don't have anything contructive to add, with all respect, don't post.

Appreciated.

Edited by Sarlic, 21 February 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[FupDup]

Sarlic, on 21 February 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

Please, if you don't have anything contructive to add, with all respect, don't post.

Appreciated.

It's a thread about mixed builds, I talked about some mixed builds I might use in the future.

[YueFei]

Sarlic, on 21 February 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

It's a teambased game, not a ''specialist'' game.

Erm, you better go tell all those NFL teams that they are doing it wrong. It's a team-based game, stop recruiting athletes of such varying size/stature and speed for specific positions, and just use athletes of all the same weight/height/build who can kinda sorta do everything but aren't great at any specific role.

[Joseph Mallan]

YueFei, on 21 February 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Erm, you better go tell all those NFL teams that they are doing it wrong. It's a team-based game, stop recruiting athletes of such varying size/stature and speed for specific positions, and just use athletes of all the same weight/height/build who can kinda sorta do everything but aren't great at any specific role.

In Sports. In Combat it is better to be a generalist.

[Kristov Kerensky]

YueFei, on 21 February 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Erm, you better go tell all those NFL teams that they are doing it wrong. It's a team-based game, stop recruiting athletes of such varying size/stature and speed for specific positions, and just use athletes of all the same weight/height/build who can kinda sorta do everything but aren't great at any specific role.

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

In Sports. In Combat it is better to be a generalist.

Actually, it works the same in both, generalists and specialist supporting and helping each other. Unless you consider a Lineman getting an interception and returning for a TD a specialist ability that is...just saying.

[Sarlic]

YueFei, on 21 February 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Erm, you better go tell all those NFL teams that they are doing it wrong. It's a team-based game, stop recruiting athletes of such varying size/stature and speed for specific positions, and just use athletes of all the same weight/height/build who can kinda sorta do everything but aren't great at any specific role.

If you want to brag about your post: Watch the Rugby Six Nations in the UK. They only function with a optimal mix of both roles. Mind you?

The problem we are facing is now:
Do you even foresee the amount of your socalled 'specialists' we have on MWO? For a small community as Mechwarrior this is fairly shocking to begin with.

Read this post again:
http://mwomercs.com/...61#entry4206561

Quote

Quote

But i dont want too many stacked 'specialists' on my team, because i know we will be Nascar-ring online, thus nerfing your team with missing out the generalist. Which is more in common then you know.

We can discuss further about what it needs to archieve the win but the bottom fact is that people obviously, as i have said, do not want to play a more variety build and are dropping hps, weapons and more just to vomit with it.

Which we come to the point we enter Vomit™ Online. Aside from the obvious energy and or special variants.

Slapping 4 LL in a Stalker while dropping 4(!) hardpoints is not a specialist or a generalist build at all.

Edited by Sarlic, 21 February 2015 - 11:02 AM.

[ROSS-128]

It's just how it goes with most things, if you try to be a jack of all trades, more often than not you get bit in the rear by the "master of none" part.

Kind of like how a swiss army knife or a multi-tool can sort of be a screw driver, pliers, saw, knife, socket wrench, allen wrench, and can-opener at the same time, but it can't do any one of those things as well as the real tool.

Or how the US Army's "universal camouflage" ended up just being highly visible no matter what environment you put it in.

Or how the F35 is a VTOL that has a hard time with the V part, a fighter that struggles in air-to-air, a bomber that lacks payload, a CAS plane that doesn't have enough fuel to CAS, a stealth plane that's not very stealthy, etc.

Actually, the 90's-present DoD in general is probably crammed absolutely full of examples of trying to build a single system that does everything, only to have it do nothing well.

Could we make a mech that fills all roles just as well as any current specialist mech in theory? Sure, I'll just need about 300 tons, a 1200 XXL engine (which doesn't exist), about 20 weapon hardpoints, and an unlimited number of critical slots.

Because we have to work inside of constraints though, it is better to specialize by sacrificing capability in one area to gain it in another. Because generally the relationship between the two is not linear.