144 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Richter B., on 20 February 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

Davion is better than you and our twelve mans win against Davion most of the time. Correct me if I'm wrong, Davs, but you guys generally send your best to Kurita, not Marik, right?

Before? Our best always fought Marik. Recently? We only recently had 12mans to send anywhere.

[wanderer]

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

Was Liao supposed to fold when they were getting rolled every day?

If you'd kept hitting us and we had no hope of reinforcement? Yes, if you did it right. In fact, if we'd said "Uncle!", you should have kept hitting us until we no longer had planets to hit.

However, we proceeded to get our goals in line with Kurita and Marik, were able to apply additional pressure alongside said allies, and the tide turned. Why should we be stupid enough to advise making the same mistake that put Davion in it's precarious state now? Better to press for your total removal from the political map.

A war that isn't prosecuted for the purpose of rendering an enemy militarily and politically impotent is generally a wasteful one. That is, if you get into a fight- finish it in a way that makes it abundantly clear that your opponent will not be able to continue. Liao in the 4th Succession War was being pressured into that state, and the only reason there's a state now is that ultimately, Davion took too big of a bite and was (much as the present day) unable to chew it up fast enough to finish the job.

We have no problem with taking smaller bites or sharing the plate, as long as the plate gets cleaned.

[MischiefSC]

wanderer, on 20 February 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

If you'd kept hitting us and we had no hope of reinforcement? Yes, if you did it right. In fact, if we'd said "Uncle!", you should have kept hitting us until we no longer had planets to hit.

However, we proceeded to get our goals in line with Kurita and Marik, were able to apply additional pressure alongside said allies, and the tide turned. Why should we be stupid enough to advise making the same mistake that put Davion in it's precarious state now? Better to press for your total removal from the political map.

A war that isn't prosecuted for the purpose of rendering an enemy militarily and politically impotent is generally a wasteful one. That is, if you get into a fight- finish it in a way that makes it abundantly clear that your opponent will not be able to continue. Liao in the 4th Succession War was being pressured into that state, and the only reason there's a state now is that ultimately, Davion took too big of a bite and was (much as the present day) unable to chew it up fast enough to finish the job.

We have no problem with taking smaller bites or sharing the plate, as long as the plate gets cleaned.

This is the fundamental flaw of the system - Davion has no interest in seeing Liao removed. In the long run those pilots will probably end up leaving CW - especially the loyalists. We'd rather Liao go fight the Clans.

If you want to pretend that some day Liao is going to be party to defeating Davion it's your dream to have. If you refuse any future but one in which we fight non-stop until Davion wins (because there isn't a Liao wins scenario. Not in any statistical probability that is going to see the light of day) then, well, that's an unfortunate waste of resources.

This is the Liao Dilemma for Davion. Liao refuses any real solution that doesn't involve them losing.

The situation Davion is in right now had nothing at all to do with Kurita, or Marik, or Liao. It was internal issues and situational issues and those pass. In fact we are coming out stronger for it.

Not going to shake a fist or anything like that. Just say that 'you may want to reconsider that position at a later date'. For now, Liao still isn't enough of an issue to require Davions attention. Kurita sure is.

[wanderer]

If you think Davion cannot be removed, it is a mighty fatalistic view towards the Clans being removed in turn.

I certainly believe that factions can be eliminated- the FRR proves that, as it took massive intervention from the Inner Sphere to stabilize them. Davion has attacked every single IS faction save for the FRR. Who would save it other than the disinterest of others in destroying it?

And I would convince them to take interest. In fact, I can remember a plan drawn up. Attack the weakest member of a group of states and obliterate it. Hmm...

I think they titled it "Operation Bulldog".

[MischiefSC]

wanderer, on 20 February 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

If you think Davion cannot be removed, it is a mighty fatalistic view towards the Clans being removed in turn.

I certainly believe that factions can be eliminated- the FRR proves that, as it took massive intervention from the Inner Sphere to stabilize them. Davion has attacked every single IS faction save for the FRR. Who would save it other than the disinterest of others in destroying it?

And I would convince them to take interest. In fact, I can remember a plan drawn up. Attack the weakest member of a group of states and obliterate it. Hmm...

I think they titled it "Operation Bulldog".

FRR was 1/4 the size of Davion and has been under constant assault from 2 or 3 Clans and the largest merc units in the game and it's still hanging on.

Who led Bulldog btw?

You're not going to see a significant enough and persistent enough population shift to make wiping out Davion a reality. Even at 3 worlds per day Davion would get bored before it wiped out Liao in a single run. We did last time. Ate about 1/3rd of you in our spare time and just ran out of 'care'.

Clans are individually not that many worlds, save possibly CGB. With the periodic MS population in CGB and several other big merc units to boot who also refuse to turn against CGB I'm not sure there's a fix for that. CSJ? Jade Falcon? Wolf already got rolled back once. Those could all be done. CGB is its own problem and one endemic to larger CW issues.

Davion isn't going to wipe out Liao. Wouldn't if it could. Liao isn't going to wipe out Davion. It'll never have the chance. If you want to waste your time, your resources, everything you could accomplish worrying about two scenarios that will never come to pass...

That's unfortunate. Nothing you do on the Davion border matters. Nothing Davion does on the Liao border matters. We'll fight; sure. We'll take worlds and trade them. In the end though that realization and the realization that what you do CAN matter is why Marik and Davion made peace. We got passed being angry and focused on what we could do that mattered.

Right now Kurita is a big obstruction to that and trusting that Kurita is going to actually go all in against the Clans is a big leap at this point. The flat out best thing that Marik can do is go face-tank with the Clans and serve as a focal point for a lot of mercs (which it does already and with whom it has a great relationship).

Davion collapsed for its own reasons, Marik didn't, so went on to send mercs to FRR and coordinate huge drops in defense of FRR worlds and made a difference for the FRR. Now we're coming back to a good position and hope to follow them.

Your mechs, your time to spend. The only question is if you want to spend them on something that matters.

[Vassago Rain]

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

This is the fundamental flaw of the system - Davion has no interest in seeing Liao removed. In the long run those pilots will probably end up leaving CW - especially the loyalists. We'd rather Liao go fight the Clans.

If you want to pretend that some day Liao is going to be party to defeating Davion it's your dream to have. If you refuse any future but one in which we fight non-stop until Davion wins (because there isn't a Liao wins scenario. Not in any statistical probability that is going to see the light of day) then, well, that's an unfortunate waste of resources.

This is the Liao Dilemma for Davion. Liao refuses any real solution that doesn't involve them losing.

The situation Davion is in right now had nothing at all to do with Kurita, or Marik, or Liao. It was internal issues and situational issues and those pass. In fact we are coming out stronger for it.

Not going to shake a fist or anything like that. Just say that 'you may want to reconsider that position at a later date'. For now, Liao still isn't enough of an issue to require Davions attention. Kurita sure is.

Maybe, you know, going full lore on planets, deployments, and so on was a stupid idea, just like the original dropships that had like 1000 PPCs, 50 large lasers, and 2 trillion medium lasers that always hit your weak spots for massive damage?

I mean, I'm not a game designer, so I'm probably wrong, but this all seems like very bad ideas that should have been cut during development.

>you know, man, I think the least popular faction should be put between the traditionally most popular CBT faction and MWO's most popular IS faction.
>yeah, man, it'll make for great gameplay. The liao diehards will be so happy.

[Roadbeer]

Vassago Rain, on 20 February 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Maybe, you know, going full lore on planets, deployments, and so on was a stupid idea, just like the original dropships that had like 1000 PPCs, 50 large lasers, and 2 trillion medium lasers that always hit your weak spots for massive damage?

I mean, I'm not a game designer, so I'm probably wrong, but this all seems like very bad ideas that should have been cut during development.

>you know, man, I think the least popular faction should be put between the traditionally most popular CBT faction and MWO's most popular IS faction.
>yeah, man, it'll make for great gameplay. The liao diehards will be so happy.

Well, that and not being able to select your attack vector.

Oh good, let's typewriter the whole Davion and Steiner borders again so we can get one planet closer to Terra.

[MischiefSC]

Vassago Rain, on 20 February 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Maybe, you know, going full lore on planets, deployments, and so on was a stupid idea, just like the original dropships that had like 1000 PPCs, 50 large lasers, and 2 trillion medium lasers that always hit your weak spots for massive damage?

I mean, I'm not a game designer, so I'm probably wrong, but this all seems like very bad ideas that should have been cut during development.

>you know, man, I think the least popular faction should be put between the traditionally most popular CBT faction and MWO's most popular IS faction.
>yeah, man, it'll make for great gameplay. The liao diehards will be so happy.

I caught all sorts of **** in the first weeks of CW for saying that what factions needed 'quirks' and the Liao quirk needed to be opening new fronts on the Clan border.

Would give Liao an out and an amazing draw for new players and units.

Right now playing Liao is hamstringing yourself in a lot of ways for opportunities. That is just bad design.

I have been and still am a proponent that the position of Liao on the map is ****. It's bad and it needs fixed in some way. Move it, move the Clans to be in a circle so each faction gets a Clan border, do *something*. The current approach is not a good one.

[Davers]

Is this the right thread to talk about how Davion pressured and demanded Marik go to war with Kurita while being involved in secret peace talks with HK for over a week prior? Remember how Davion was all too willing to throw their 'ally' Steiner under the bus to protect their border with Marik? Am I the only one who sees the similarity?

[The Droid]

Davers, on 20 February 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

Is this the right thread to talk about how Davion pressured and demanded Marik go to war with Kurita

[Roadbeer]

Davers, on 20 February 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

Is this the right thread to talk about how Davion pressured and demanded Marik go to war with Kurita while being involved in secret peace talks with HK for over a week prior? Remember how Davion was all too willing to throw their 'ally' Steiner under the bus to protect their border with Marik? Am I the only one who sees the similarity?

No, this is the thread where Kurita realized its pissed everyone off ( except Liao ) and is in full damage control trying to get anyone to be their ally before the remaining merc contracts run out.

[hopterque]

Roadbeer, on 20 February 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

No, this is the thread where Kurita realized its pissed everyone off ( except Liao ) and is in full damage control trying to get anyone to be their ally before the remaining merc contracts run out.

[MischiefSC]

Davers, on 20 February 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

Is this the right thread to talk about how Davion pressured and demanded Marik go to war with Kurita while being involved in secret peace talks with HK for over a week prior? Remember how Davion was all too willing to throw their 'ally' Steiner under the bus to protect their border with Marik? Am I the only one who sees the similarity?

I missed that one. Would love to hear about it actually. Nobody would have 'thrown Steiner under the bus' people wouldn't have done it. Would be like Marik leadership offering to invade Liao. Wouldn't happen.

When did we have a serious conversation with Kurita about a treaty before? That's another one I'm curious about. I was there for Marik and Davion talking for some of it and as close as it got to talking about Marik attacking Kurita was (and this was a while ago) 'you know the whole wormhole thing, you don't really need Kuritas permission. How will they stop you?' At the time Kurita was not in the position they're in now. Mariks response was pretty much 'Cuz it's the nice thing to do, Kurita seems very happy to work with us and appreciates what we're trying to do against the Clans'.

There was a lot of stuff discussed there and it was cool and on the level. Davion doesn't do underhanded deals - never needed to. Have you spoken to AFFS Command? You couldn't talk those guys into parking in front of a broken parking meter for 5 minutes.

[wanderer]

Vassago Rain, on 20 February 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

>you know, man, I think the least popular faction should be put between the traditionally most popular CBT faction and MWO's most popular IS faction.
>yeah, man, it'll make for great gameplay. The liao diehards will be so happy.

>implying implications

Honestly, it's where we're supposed to be, and having Marik on the other side likely saved our space bacon.

The 3050-era map, unlike the 3025 one gives Marik a clean shot at the traditional screw-you opponent for Liao (Davion), while also offering that tempting chance to recover the old borders by pushing north. Yeah, we're the second-most-underdog faction next to the the hard-luck FRR. You want to play against the odds and not have to deal with Clanners? Ayyyy Liao. Marik wants you fighting Clanners, Davion has an almost inescapable date with them thanks to game fluff and general "We're Team Good Guys!" mindset.

After all the drama, seeing any part of Marik want to make kissy faces with Davion AND lunging after Kurita makes me wish I had enough hands to quadruple facepalm. Giving Davion hugs is a lousy, LOUSY way to endear yourself to your one remaining and longest-lasting ally.

[Gas Guzzler]

Roadbeer, on 20 February 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

No, this is the thread where Kurita realized its pissed everyone off ( except Liao ) and is in full damage control trying to get anyone to be their ally before the remaining merc contracts run out.

We pissed off Marik and Davion apparently (not everyone). The FRR, Steiner, and Liao haven't had any issues with us as far as I know.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 February 2015 - 12:21 AM, said:

We pissed off Marik and Davion apparently (not everyone). The FRR, Steiner, and Liao haven't had any issues with us as far as I know.

Give it time. You guys work hard at what you do but you can only piss off so many people each day. Set yourself achievable goals, take them one at a time. You'll get there

[Samurai Hanse Davion]

MischiefSC, on 21 February 2015 - 12:36 AM, said:

Give it time. You guys work hard at what you do but you can only piss off so many people each day. Set yourself achievable goals, take them one at a time. You'll get there

We Already Take Our Goals One At A Time, As CW Only Allows For One Davion Planet To Be Taken Per Attack Phase.

[Samurai Hanse Davion]

Roadbeer, on 20 February 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

No, this is the thread where Kurita realized its pissed everyone off ( except Liao ) and is in full damage control trying to get anyone to be their ally before the remaining merc contracts run out.

Do You Shake With Rage While You Type?

[Davers]

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

I missed that one. Would love to hear about it actually. Nobody would have 'thrown Steiner under the bus' people wouldn't have done it. Would be like Marik leadership offering to invade Liao. Wouldn't happen.

When did we have a serious conversation with Kurita about a treaty before? That's another one I'm curious about. I was there for Marik and Davion talking for some of it and as close as it got to talking about Marik attacking Kurita was (and this was a while ago) 'you know the whole wormhole thing, you don't really need Kuritas permission. How will they stop you?' At the time Kurita was not in the position they're in now. Mariks response was pretty much 'Cuz it's the nice thing to do, Kurita seems very happy to work with us and appreciates what we're trying to do against the Clans'.

CrockdaddyAoD, on 20 February 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

For the record,

Before the Marik blow up, I was in the process of tracking down AFFS to discuss a ceasefire. Mischief can corroborate this as we were talking through PMs on mwomercs. HK had decided last week to offer a ceasefire to Davion.


So I initiated contact with Mischief many hours before Marik started stabbing us in the back. Real life got in the way, when I came back online at midnight the crap had hit the fan with Marik. Davion seems emboldened now and the idea of a cease fire and clan focus seems a distant memory already.

Glad to be able to satisfy your curiosity. But it seems that you already knew this.

[xRedEyex]

Onmyoudo, on 19 February 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

Opinion within the DCMS lower ranks (i.e. not high command and not representative of Kurita's strategy) has always been that we'd stop at Robinson and really focus on taking Smoke Jag down. Robinson isn't far away now.

If you think that HK would take the home world of one of Davion's most fanatical units and then offer a ceasefire that would be accepted you are delusional. The RRB would spit in your faces.

Edited by xRedEyex, 21 February 2015 - 04:44 AM.