178 replies to this topic

[Nori Silverrage]

Jonathan Paine, on 23 February 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

For the IS, some of the quirked out mechs close most of the gap to the clans. The newly departed thunderbolt 9s was clearly competitive prior to the nerf hammer. The main problems we deal with is range/ecm/mobility, with an honorable mention to the cheatcrows broken hitboxes.

Things we cannot match:
Clan gauss (lighter, smaller, same punch)
Clan DHS - oh how I want 2 crit dhs!
Clan XL that survives losing a torso.
Clan ECM on the hellbringer.

I didn't see anyone respond to this so I think I will.

1. Yes, the gauss is lighter and smaller, but with the exception of the direwolf no clan mechs can effectively fit two. I can think of at least three IS heavies that can fit two (I suppose the Warhawk can, but why would you waste all those heatsinks?). So who really wins here?

2. On paper yes, the two crit DHS is a advantage. But what you aren't taking into consideration is that clan lasers are 10-30% hotter and while they do more damage the duration is a lot longer thus wasting "heat" on misses. So despite having less DHS in IS mechs they frequently can fire as many if not more shots. Clan mechs do usually cooldown faster, but given IS heat quirks and duration quirks I would really call this a draw in most cases.

3. Probably the clan's biggest advantage. Though you should also mention that clans cannot downgrade/upgrade their engine. I wouldn't mind saving 4.5t and putting a XL350 in a Timber. Could actually do dual gauss effectively then.

4. True, but Clans don't have a ECM assault or medium and only have two ECM lights (though omni pod mitigate this a lot). I'd call that a slight win in the Clans favor since 65t slots in very very well for CW. Then again I do see a lot of ECM cicadas and they slot in nicely too.

Edited by Nori Silverrage, 23 February 2015 - 05:10 PM.

[Simbacca]

Jonathan Paine, on 23 February 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

For the IS, some of the quirked out mechs close most of the gap to the clans. The newly departed thunderbolt 9s was clearly competitive prior to the nerf hammer. The main problems we deal with is range/ecm/mobility, with an honorable mention to the cheatcrows broken hitboxes.

Things we cannot match:
Clan gauss (lighter, smaller, same punch)
Clan DHS - oh how I want 2 crit dhs!
Clan XL that survives losing a torso.
Clan ECM on the hellbringer.

You forgot to mention the range of Clan Streak missiles....

[Gyrok]

Hillslam, on 23 February 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

BOTH of your anecdotal evidence is worthless.

How about that? Now stop arguing like idiots.

After all we all know the REAL reason Stormcrows are OP has nothing to do with laser vomit or SRM spam (or the fact it can put out the damage of an IS 100 tonner). No, the REAL reason is shown in the highly accruate and scientifically proven diagram below.

(No seals were harmed in the collecting of this data)

Judging by the hitboxes...that must be a panther...

[Gyrok]

Karpundir, on 23 February 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Just adding in my 2 cents, but have you played IS vs Clan on the IS side since the nerfs to the TDR-9S? The match-up feels more in favour of Clans now. Sadly, the TDR-9S was the biggest contributor to IS-Clan balance and the 20-30pts of front-loaded damage did make it superior (in skilled hands) to the laser vomit Mechs of the Clans until it lost 2 of it's ER PPCs OR you pushed in hard with your Clan Mechs en masse.

QQ Mercs is now on the Clan side and it is certainly a lot easier than it used to be fighting vs IS. Now the biggest threat is the STK-4N, but it is actually easier to kill it than the TDR-9S, despite it's higher mounted weapons and additional toughness. The burn time of the LL is shorter, but you can get as much damage on it as you take, thanks to the extended range/damage per ton of the Clan lasers, not to mention ability to boat as many DHS as a STK in a mech that is 10 tons lighter.

The 3rd Clan pack is going to shift even more in favour to the Clans with 2 new ECM options, one of which can make a good ER PPC/Gauss jump sniper. The new DWF-S omnipods are still not widely used, so its effects are minimal in the grand scheme of things, but it makes the DWF a LOT better for mobility and damage mitigation. Once these are available for C-Bills, you will see the Whales dominating even more than they have been. The King Crab was supposed to be the answer to the DWF, but it fell short of that due to it's low-slung arms and huge CT hitbox/flat-top.

LRMs are in favour of the Clans, despite the front-loaded IS option, simply due to the superior ECM chassis available to the Clans (Hellbringers and eventually the Arctic Cheetah and Shadow Cat). The IS needs an ECM-capable Heavy in a bad way.

The Arctic Cheetah will eliminate the IS light advantage with an equally fast, ECM- and Jump-capable light that doesn't die to a side torso blow-out and can pack up to 6 energy weapons with the ECM included. Good bye Firestarters!

IS Quirks were made to compensate for Clan tech superiority in the absence of fighting 10v12. There is a reason why many merc units who flip between Clan and IS are preferring fighting as Clans going forward. Sadly, as much as I like to run both, I just don't see the IS being able to match the Clans. Soon Clans are getting more quirks for their "weaker" Mechs, which means the baseline of power is moving toward being on par to SCR/HBR/TBR levels rather than bringing those down to a more equivalent IS baseline.

Soon enough, the "Clans are OP" argument will become clearly validated, regardless of equal skill level between the 2 sides.

Your opinion was predetermined before you ever posted a response...

The reality is the 4N stalker is every bit as nasty, or more so, than the 9S was, however, I do not feel it is really OP as the 9S was because it may be super tanky, and put out a ton of DPS, it is not very mobile. While the 9S would move into the 70-80 kph range, most stalker builds hover around 60-62 kph. Which I think is a balanced trade off, it also costs a bit more tonnage in your dropdeck as well so you cannot bring 3 of them.

So, you went to CJF to fight steiner with no real merc corps in that faction and find it not to be a challenge? Really? What would have tipped you off that would be the case? How about No Comp teams in steiner right now??? Would that be a good start? Skill is OP, Karp...

The rest of your conclusions are clearly flawed:

LRMs = IS > Clans. This is not even disputed by neck beards, it is clearly in favor of the IS.

The ACH coming in will be good/bad based on hit boxes and other criteria as well. If just being a clan mech was a license to be "OP", then mechs like the Gargoyle, Adder, Kit Fox, and Nova would be "Tier 0" too. They are clearly not, and your reasoning is flawed because it does not account for the full spectrum.

Most merc units I have talked to about IS vs Clans like to play Clans because (A) Clans put up stronger fight, ( IS fights back harder, (C) it is a change of pace.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with any of your points put forth. They have no objective reasoning behind them.

[Carpenocturn]

Necromantion, on 23 February 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

I run brawling builds on multiple maps but its all about timing and what mode and map youre on.


Attack mode:
For example, when attacking boreal I never bring any brawling builds. Maybe some wub or streaks on one mech for when we push into the base near the end.

Attacking on Sulfur I usually bring a high pintpoint alpha or brawler build first, definitely a brawler or two in my deck for this map due to the amount of cover and shorter distances in combat.

New map ill bring all ranged builds with one brawler for later on depending on how the battle goes.

Defense mode:
Defending on sulfur though I bring at least one or two brawling builds due to the fact i know I am going to be fighting in tight spaces.

At times on boreal defence I will start with a brawler build if I feel like for my first mech otherwise I will keep one in my deck for later on for if we get pushed back into the buildings at the base.

Defending against IS I always have a streak mech in case of the skillfull light rush employed by many IS units.

Defending on the new map I typically bring long ranged builds with one brawler for later on if the enemy team pushes to the O-Gen.

Counter attack mode:
I always bring a brawler build (2 if on sulfur), streaks preferrably when fighting as clan vs IS. AC 20 if IS vs Clan and then 2-3 mid-long ranged builds


Build to succeed, use your brains. Also all of this above applies regardless of IS or Clan.

Can you tell before a drop which type of map you are dropping on? I thought it was random?

[Necromantion]

Carpenocturn, on 23 February 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

Can you tell before a drop which type of map you are dropping on? I thought it was random?

Each tick from bottom left going around is Cold, hot, neutral and then repeats.

[Karpundir]

Gyrok, you are absolutely right... I had an opinion before writing my response. This is why I wrote one!

I don't know if your unit has ever done CW as IS. if not, try both sides and see for yourself what I am talking about before you are so quick to downvote my comments which comes from a lot of experience from both sides. I don't recall CWDG ever leaving Clan Wolf, so I am going to presume your viewpoint is rather one-sided when it comes to CW specifically.

Our unit has bounced back and forth between IS and Clan, because we have guys who have invested in Clan mechs and want to use them in CW, as well, so it is not us "running for the Clan hills" as you like to make it sound (we will likely be back in an IS faction in 2 weeks). As a result of doing this, we have a pretty good feel for what the Clan-IS balance was like pre- and post-quirk changes and this is where my opinions come from. You can chose to ignore them, if you want, but everyone is entitled to their 2 cents in these forums, right?

Edited by Karpundir, 23 February 2015 - 05:35 PM.

[Gyrok]

Karpundir, on 23 February 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

Gyrok, you are absolutely right... I had an opinion before writing my response. This is why I wrote one!

I don't know if your unit has ever done CW as IS. if not, try both sides and see for yourself what I am talking about before you are so quick to downvote my comments which comes from a lot of experience from both sides. I don't recall CWDG ever leaving Clan Wolf, so I am going to presume your viewpoint is rather one-sided when it comes to CW specifically.

Our unit has bounced back and forth between IS and Clan, because we have guys who have invested in Clan mechs and want to use them in CW, as well, so it is not us "running for the Clan hills" as you like to make it sound (we will likely be back in an IS faction in 2 weeks). As a result of doing this, we have a pretty good feel for what the Clan-IS balance was like pre- and post-quirk changes and this is where my opinions come from. You can chose to ignore them, if you want, but everyone is entitled to their 2 cents in these forums, right?

Of course, you are entitled...

However, how many times were you clans against groups like 228, MS, or Lords as IS? How many times were you IS against those same factions as Clans? My point is, preconceived notions can be biased by experience. Sure, wisdom can be gained by playing both sides, as you learn how to play the other side.

No, we have not left Clan Wolf, and do not intend to do so. Most of our members have a majority of Clan mechs at this point, and many have even sold off most of their IS chassis (against my personal wishes) as well. As far as all this goes, you really should fight some top tier competition in the IS as a Clan unit to gain the perspective CWDG comes from. We can pug stomp as well as anyone else; however, the defining moments come from fighting the groups like 228, Lords, MS, SJR, etc. It shows you just how balanced the game is, because the results go to the side of skilled players who execute sound tactics. As much as I would like to say that CWDG is on that level. I would only be kidding anyone who read it. I think that we have the strategies and tactics in place to be able to beat those teams, and occasionally have pulled off what would be considered upsets in the pub queue. Though, in CW, there are many more chances to recover, and so while they may occasionally make a tactical mistake, they will not make many, and capitalizing on those is difficult to do. So, we fight hard, and try to get all our players to that level. The competition in the IS toward the Clans is pretty strong right now. Sure, you see pug drops, and they get rolled...however, you also see the strong 8-12 man groups and those are tough fights. Some go our way, others do not.

All in all, I would say balance is in a mostly good place right now. The fact that members of a unit, that counts many tier 1 competitive teams among their ranks, also agree leads me to believe that I am seeing the numbers for what they are. You may have preconceived notions about how "fair" or "unfair" something is; however, considering the balance changes we have watched from the Clan perspective, we think that nearly any imbalance that existed has been essentially squashed by massive heat nerfs, and poor weapon systems, not to mention further hard locked equipment restrictions.

[BARBAR0SSA]

xe N on, on 23 February 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Lol, my SCRs love to brawl. Come and get some 5x C-SRM6+A. But I prefer 4 C-ERML + 3xSRM6+A.

60+ alpha for teh win.

Bring your bad build mech out then I'll snipe you from 911M with my IS erLL on BLR-1S/5ss. IS has superior range, heat and dps over your MLs, and by the time you get close you're done fer.

Edited by shad0w4life, 23 February 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[Void Angel]

Dawnstealer, on 23 February 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

Okay...and as a frustrated IS player, I can admit that yes they are OP, but...


And this is the hard part for me, especially as someone who's a fan of the lore: they're supposed to be.

No, they are the frack not! The loreboat has sailed; the last ship has left the Grey Havens, the bell has tolled, Elvis has left the building. It's not that the fictional materials and rulebooks should not or don't inform the game's development (though most book-wavers are highly... selective, about what rulebooks should be slavishly followed,) but in a competitive game, one side should not have a distinct advantage over the other. What Clan 'mechs - and Inner Sphere 'mechs, for that matter - should be is balanced.

And they're not, quite. How do I know? PGI told me - and all of you, too. Why else would they consider allowing the Inner Sphere higher tonnage limits in CW if the Clans were not overperforming? And PGI is positioned to know empirically if this is the case, as all of us are not; they, not we, have access to demographic information about the game.

That being said, the Clans do not seem horribly broken either - the new cap for Inner Sphere is planned to be 160-260. This is only an 8% increase in maximum tonnage from the original 240-ton drop limit. That's not inconsequential, but it isn't huge either. This does support the anecdotal claims of some players that coordination and player skill are more important than tech base - but one should take careful note that this being the case doesn't mean the tech bases were balanced to begin with.

Regardless, since balance changes are incoming for this issue, we should probably all wait for March 3rd and see where it takes us.

[Gyrok]

Void Angel, on 23 February 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

No, they are the frack not! The loreboat has sailed; the last ship has left the Grey Havens, the bell has tolled, Elvis has left the building. It's not that the fictional materials and rulebooks should not or don't inform the game's development (though most book-wavers are highly... selective, about what rulebooks should be slavishly followed,) but in a competitive game, one side should not have a distinct advantage over the other. What Clan 'mechs - and Inner Sphere 'mechs, for that matter - should be is balanced.

And they're not, quite. How do I know? PGI told me - and all of you, too. Why else would they consider allowing the Inner Sphere higher tonnage limits in CW if the Clans were not overperforming? And PGI is positioned to know empirically if this is the case, as all of us are not; they, not we, have access to demographic information about the game.

That being said, the Clans do not seem horribly broken either - the new cap for Inner Sphere is planned to be 160-260. This is only an 8% increase in maximum tonnage from the original 240-ton drop limit. That's not inconsequential, but it isn't huge either. This does support the anecdotal claims of some players that coordination and player skill are more important than tech base - but one should take careful note that this being the case doesn't mean the tech bases were balanced to begin with.

Regardless, since balance changes are incoming for this issue, we should probably all wait for March 3rd and see where it takes us.

I think a lot of the changes that have been made, or are being made, are coming from listening to the forums where people think clans are the devil and want them nerfed so hard that they are all looking up at a locust on a tier chart.

[Mangonel TwoSix]

Astrocanis, on 23 February 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

If by "stack up favorably" you mean "not pure crap against" I can go along with that. The exception, for the moment, is the firestarter.

Otherwise, Clantech simply beats IS tech.

As to the "superior pilot in an inferior plane..." stuff, I reference WWII Zero vs Wildcat. It took two very well trained Wildcat pilots to be the equivalent of a single Zero pilot, and even then, the lack of self-sealing tanks made a large difference.

In the case of Bearcats vs Raiden/Zero, the plane beat the enemy as the Bearcat pilots had mere seconds in combat in those airframes against seasoned Japanese pilots (not many pilots left by that time, really).

The saying sounds good, but it's not really the case for the most part.

I agree with this for the most part and is kind of what I was getting at, that in some aspects IS tech (such as the pinpoint dmg of ACs) has some advantages, but that overall Clan tech is superior. And that the overall advantages of the clan tech overshadow the spot 'advantages' of IS tech.

I mean if your weapons hit harder, at longer ranges for less weight, you don't even have to aim accurately. You can just blast away and take down your target faster than our intrepid IS pilot trying to make sure his damage is being done to the same hitbox with his weapons that are heavier and less effective at the same ranges as his clan opponent.

[Mangonel TwoSix]

Gyrok, on 24 February 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

I think a lot of the changes that have been made, or are being made, are coming from listening to the forums where people think clans are the devil and want them nerfed so hard that they are all looking up at a locust on a tier chart.

That is hardly fair or correct. The same could be said about the Thunderbolt 9S quirk change, but by and large most IS players that are honest with themselves know that the 9S was a little bit too powerful as a erPPC machine. Its quirks made it so powerful that it was a beast at range, and the weapons ran so cool that you could bring it up into a brawl with little or no consequences. There was no balance or trade off there.

And that is my main complaint with Clan Tech, there are very little trade offs. (and I remember an old NGNG podcast that had Randall Bills on, paraphrasing he said that the op-ness of the clans was one of their great regrets, that once they did it they could not take it back and if they had it to do over again they would have changed things and introduced more tradeoffs)

I'll admit that PGI has done a fair job with the clans, they at least made an attempt to find a way to have some tradeoffs. But bottom line, if you can shoot longer, for more damage, with less weight. If your XL engines don't blow up when you take out a torso, if your components take up less crit space, then you are already starting way out in front of the other guy.

[Necromantion]

Roknari, on 24 February 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

That is hardly fair or correct. The same could be said about the Thunderbolt 9S quirk change, but by and large most IS players that are honest with themselves know that the 9S was a little bit too powerful as a erPPC machine. Its quirks made it so powerful that it was a beast at range, and the weapons ran so cool that you could bring it up into a brawl with little or no consequences. There was no balance or trade off there.

And that is my main complaint with Clan Tech, there are very little trade offs. (and I remember an old NGNG podcast that had Randall Bills on, paraphrasing he said that the op-ness of the clans was one of their great regrets, that once they did it they could not take it back and if they had it to do over again they would have changed things and introduced more tradeoffs)

I'll admit that PGI has done a fair job with the clans, they at least made an attempt to find a way to have some tradeoffs. But bottom line, if you can shoot longer, for more damage, with less weight. If your XL engines don't blow up when you take out a torso, if your components take up less crit space, then you are already starting way out in front of the other guy.

And you ignore all the quirks that give IS better heat efficiency and nearly the same range. Learn to trade better. Really. We have no issues on our IS cycles pulling the same numbers and winning the same % of matches.

[Necromantion]

Roknari, on 24 February 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

I agree with this for the most part and is kind of what I was getting at, that in some aspects IS tech (such as the pinpoint dmg of ACs) has some advantages, but that overall Clan tech is superior. And that the overall advantages of the clan tech overshadow the spot 'advantages' of IS tech.

I mean if your weapons hit harder, at longer ranges for less weight, you don't even have to aim accurately. You can just blast away and take down your target faster than our intrepid IS pilot trying to make sure his damage is being done to the same hitbox with his weapons that are heavier and less effective at the same ranges as his clan opponent.

If we played like that just rubbing lasers all over someone to kill them that would be extremely ineffective. You clearly have not played clans in CW against solid IS teams of 228/OLD/LORDS/ACES.

IS AC's are vastly superior to Clan AC's, with quirks IS lasers are just as good if not better with reduced burn times than Clan lasers, LRMS? meh but still IS have the front loaded clouds and Clan have streams more susceptible to AMS.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each faction but the gap is not skewed significantly to either side and based off your descriptions of clan play you really have not played a significant amount of time on Clans

Also if you arent doing the same laser vomit thing on IS mechs right now after the LL buffs youre doing things wrong. Time to do some homework buddy.

[HARDKOR]

After I pronounced myself too drunk to drive mechs last night, I played around in mechlab with my IS mechs.

Can it please be Thursday after cease fire already? I am ready for "The Stalkening"

[Necromantion]

HARDKOR, on 24 February 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

After I pronounced myself too drunk to drive mechs last night, I played around in mechlab with my IS mechs.

Can it please be Thursday after cease fire already? I am ready for "The Stalkening"

I need to buy a 3N so I am hip and cool with the times too!

[HARDKOR]

Necromantion, on 24 February 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

I need to buy a 3N so I am hip and cool with the times too!

3N is for oldsternoobs. 4N is pro style.

[Necromantion]

ALL THIS PEER PRESSURE!

[Zolaz]

Yo clammer, your tech is OP. PGI knows it is OP, you should know it is OP. Im sure you can find something else to QQ about now that you got the Thud nerfed.