196 replies to this topic

[sdsnowbum]

Necromantion, on 24 February 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Frankly LRMs need a counter like ECM otherwise it would be the boated weapon of choice with all the people who are unable to aim with pinpoint weapons or aim well enough to focus beam weapons at range on specific components using it.

Getting focus fired by LRM's is irritating due to the shake and explosions impeding vision. Without some kind of counter this game would turn into a LRMfest

I couldn't agree more.

I'm just saying on the IS side this counter requires you give up offense or mobility.

[Necromantion]

HiasRGB, on 24 February 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

Dont use LRM.
You can shoot Mechs with real Weapons.

You mean theres other weapons I can hit mechs with and do damage without locking on if I dont suck and can aim?

sdsnowbum, on 24 February 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

I couldn't agree more.

I'm just saying on the IS side this counter requires you give up offense or mobility.

Oh no worries man, my comments other than the black knight were not directed at you. I hope the IS does get a heavy with ECM as when were on IS i miss the hellbringer a lot

[sdsnowbum]

Kilgorin Strom, on 24 February 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

Clan ECM's a ton, IS ECM is 1.5 tons. The atlas isn't sacrificing crap to run it either. and really, neither is the Cicada. Actually, I dropped a 1/2 ton of Machine gun ammo, the AMS and one Machine gun in my Pirate's Bane to run ECM, then I fitted 4 SPL's. It's pretty great. I sac'ed what... 1 dps? Maybe some crit potential, but damage lost was pretty much nil. Heck with the flash on 1/2 attack I can actually see what I'm shooting, really all in all, I made out.

Not sacrificing to run ECM specifically, sacrificing to use those mechs.

Any Cicada is going to have low firepower, and Atlas is going to be super slow. Using the ECM variant isn't going to change that.

[Tasker]

Simple solution.

Grasshopper is mech coming for IS next month that has canon ECM variant. These canon ECM variant come later in timeline, but PGI already include such things. Add ECM capability to grasshopper variant and balance issue solved with satisfactory conclusion.

[BARBAR0SSA]

I wish people brought mass LRMs in CW when it wasn't pugs, then it might end the getting destroyed from range fights against IS, (%25 On energy weapons means a lot in a long range fight when it's erppcs, be it full heat, and ERLLs that are good till 1800m).

ECM isn't the issue, the issue is the game has to now be balanced around 12 v 12 where people view damage done as a complete indicator on how OP a mech is, regardless of how much ammo they burned through and would be useless if the fight went longer. Along with CW where sustained damage, range, heat management all have to be factored in, overheating on the top of a hill on Boreal is a big time invitation to be smoked by LLs and PPCs.

[Haakon Magnusson]

Divine Retribution, on 24 February 2015 - 03:23 AM, said:

The biggest advantage of ECM isn't stopping LRMs, it's that ECM makes it more difficult to focus fire(at least to me). When the team doesn't see red doritos, nice target designations, or even enemies on the minimap, all a team can do is call a chassis "Firing on the Timberwolf" and hope everyone shoots at the same Timberwolf in that pack of 5 Timberwolves. That many clan players bring the same 3 mechs only adds to the problem (a reason to quirk sub-par clan mechs). ECM simply makes it more difficult to be organized.

^ This

Clan side simply can't avoid having ECM advantange, a solid heavy with an ECM and if you have to pick a Clan light to take with you, take the one with ECM since you aren't gonna be going fast
(Although, Clan wave 3 will give you best of both worlds... yay and propbaly a solid medium. It is getting even more ridiculous. After wave three if you don't have ECM, you're just gimping your team)
Or then you go SCR,SCR,SCR,TWR

Either way, you have plenty of ECM or best bang for tonnage... I think ECM just needs the magic cloak of darkness removed from it for above mentioned reasons. Sure I'd like an IS heavy with ECM, but ultimately it is not the solution.

[Necromantion]

Frankly I love ECM, I find it hilarious how many players rely on the red blip on their hud to identify an enemy at medium to long ranges.

I think it is fine in its current implementation considering bap can counter at quite a range BUT i think that IS needs an ECM heavy as the Raven 3L seems to be the only remotely viable ECM mech on IS side, not saying that DDC's are awful but they are quite situational and on longer range engagements they will get eaten alive without cover. The PB is decent but the Cicada and Spider are really meh.

Edited by Necromantion, 24 February 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[HARDKOR]

I like my cicada :/

[Necromantion]

HARDKOR, on 24 February 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

I like my cicada :/

Tiny crab, great with garlic butter.

[Davers]

Necromantion, on 24 February 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

I believe they already said they had finished the artwork/design of it in their recent townhall, correct me if im wrong.

Edit: Nope wasnt in the recent TH i could swear i read that somewhere though.

Well since we were offered either the Grasshopper or the Black Knight, I can only imagine that they have some concept art done, and a plan to add it later on.

[Strykewolf]

There is a reason that the majority of our drop mechs have BAPs, a few TAGs, and a few NARCs; to go along with the 2-3 ecm mechs in the bunch. Works rather well.

[Basilisk222]

sdsnowbum, on 24 February 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Not sacrificing to run ECM specifically, sacrificing to use those mechs.

Any Cicada is going to have low firepower, and Atlas is going to be super slow. Using the ECM variant isn't going to change that.

The Hellbringer still has to sacrifice like the other mechs, because it's NEEDED. That's what I really hated about the Pirates' Bane. A normal locust can run out into the fray, buzz around and flank, it can solo and vulture injured runners, It's extremely effective at running out after a light or other mech and finishing it off. It's a great loner mech, because it's small, hard to hit, fast, and actually, its sting is not bad.

The ECM variant makes it an escort, you have to keep the party covered, you have to sacrifice what the locust does well, its saving grace if you will, its speed. The PB is a good escort right up until it's not escorting anyone anymore, then it's a trolling, irritating bug again. People expect the cloud to stay with them, that's suicide in the PB. It must escort and abandon to be effective.

Every single ECM variant thus far has this issue. It must stay with the group, it must provide cover, which means it must sacrifice mobility, and face time. ECM works very well in light groups because everyone's running a million Kph, it wastes the lights' time when they have to bubble the assaults. Their armor is their speed. An Atlas might be slow, but it protects itself and its wingman (which it's supposed to have) used to good effect, a medium or heavy next to an atlas draws less agro, and thus can lay into attackers. For instance, an atlas comes out trucked along by a TDR-9s even nerfed now, that mech is protected well from LRM giving its range and strengths much more usage, which keeps the Atlas happy because things shooting at it die. So, a Hellbringer is protecting the group but is harder to kill than the other lights with ECM and ECM being located in a better spot helps it too. But the Hellbringer still has to be obligated to its ECM, it can't or won't lead charges, and will shy away from engagements in favor of enabling others to engage, which lets face it, the other clan mechs are more than happy to do.

The issue is not the Hellbringer, because it provides no bonuses the ECM lights can't bring, in fact, they go about the same speed. It's again the mechs it protects, a Hellbringer is harder to bring down when it's escorting a Direwolf than a Kit Fox or Mist Lynx. Because you can't ignore a Direwolf really, chances are you're going to drop that guy first, which sort of leaves you open the the Hellbringer's fury.

The light rush runs ECM to stifle LRM and SSRM, it works great, you're going to have to deal with much more versatile clan mech rushes on defense with the Hellbringer's help. IS is like a river, and will run around, Clans will steamroll with whatever they brought. But Hellbringer Pilots are still not going to be the death of you, that will still be your favorite murderers from before. The Hellbringer just gives them some help.

Edited by Kilgorin Strom, 24 February 2015 - 01:15 PM.

[DaFrog]

Apostal Sinclair, on 24 February 2015 - 01:28 AM, said:

If you think Clans are OP because of the Hellbringer and not being able to spam LRM boats in CW... then wow...

Hellbringer's give Clans the option to bring ECM in a decent package... the Myst Lynx and Kitfox are both terrible CW mechs, particularly compared to the IS light's that bring ECM, can out snipe, out damage and have generous hitboxes to assist in long term survival. The clans excel in the heavy and medium department for CW, but that's about it, their assaults are either LRM boats or slow walking barn doors without much variety, their light's are slow easy kills, and half the builds are laser vomit or streak boats.

IS bring a wider variety of tools to the field, from fast killing light mechs with some dodgy hitboxes (yes you spiders and firestarters), to brawl based mediums and snipers that can dish out the damage, to the all purpose heavies and the myriad of assault mechs and their various builds/purposes on the field. Throw in quirks that drastically change how they play, the hitboxes, and the ability for them to out dps clan mechs... IS is anything but the underdog because of ECM Hellbringers.

All I see in IS dropdecks are Stalkers, Thunderbolts, Ravens, Spiders, Firestarters... then you start seeing the Battlemasters and Atlas LRM boats, the Guass Jagers... and I'm not gonna cover the range of medium mechs. If we're gonna say no ECM on the Hellbringer, then better give me my Clan Wave 3 now, remove ECM from the DDC, Spider, Commando. Because why should a Clan mech that comes with it stock have something that breaks the game when IS variants that don't have it stock get to use it...

Are you kidding me? I just got owned by 2 ecm equipped mist lynxes. There is nothing on IS side that is that tough and packs that much firepower per ton, with an ecm. An ecm spider? Let me machine gun you to death...

[Hydrocarbon]

Yokaiko, on 24 February 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

You think LRM are important?

Since when is ECM only to thwart LRM's? Clan ECM has no reason to since IS LRM's suck ass compared to clan variants. The launchers are HALF the weight of IS launchers, smaller, and Clan mechs offer far more tubes per mech. The Kitfox-D's STOCK loadout includes more LRM's than I can stuff into most IS mechs - it has more available missile tubes (70) than the 90-ton Highlander 733 (50)! I can predict the single counter argument, AMS affecting streamed vs blobbed missiles; however, when a focused 50-ton Clan mech can bring over 2000 LRM's, the argument gets tossed out the window. AMS will always run out before that.

The reason Clan ECM makes CW so painful is because it prevents better organization. The fact you can't call out an ID number to focus fire has been brought up already. There's also the point an enemy mech under ECM can flank a LOT easier, as well as cause a delay in the enemy team from reacting - a few of those delays can completely turn the tide of battle. They can fire & find cover faster than it usually takes to retrace the firing vector & scan for a silhouette. They can get IS mechs down to structure before taking any damage themselves. I won't get into the range of the 1-ton weapons they can still pile on, since that's a separate argument for OP Clan tech.

Apostal Sinclair, on 24 February 2015 - 01:28 AM, said:

Hellbringer's give Clans the option to bring ECM in a decent package... the Myst Lynx and Kitfox are both terrible CW mechs

Oh boo hoo, so your other ECM mechs are similar to the crappy IS offerings. Ever see CW won because of an ECM Spider? Or because a clan team lost track of an Atlas? If any ever did, they'd DESERVE to lose. I won't even go into how IS variants are stuck with one gimped loadouts because they don't have Omnipods. Okay now I will - the 100t Atlas has 7 hardpoints while a Hellbringer can equip up to 10 weapons (and they take 25-50% let slots too!) The Hellbringer is a match for most IS mechs even w/o ECM, while virtually all IS ECM mechs have some glaringly obvious weakness. I've consistently seen Hellbringers with insane match scores, and I consider it rare to see ANY of the IS ECM mechs (combined) do as well in the average match.

StUffz, on 24 February 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

Marik complains about ECM on the Hellbringer but does not mention the Marik Zerg Rush with Spiders along with Firerstarters... ouch...

I wouldn't be hurt one bit if they removed the Zerg Rush, so long as the IS got a strong Heavy mech that just happened to have ECM added.

Edited by Hydrocarbon, 24 February 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[Wingbreaker]

In this thread: Complete misunderstanding of the game's content.

[wanderer]

Quote

Thank you for making my points on the ECM and Hellbringer for me; the only thing I can think of to add is that ECM does not seem to stop missile locks/tracking in CW anyway, the way it does in standard matches. Not sure if this is intentional or not.

ECM works the same way in both- the odds of someone lobbing up a UAV or nailing the offending 'Mech with a PPC bolt (both of which inhibit ECM and allow locks) are simply much better that in non-CW matches. Because players tend to become much more aware of how damaging ECM is in CW.

By comparison, the odds of a team repeatedly countering ECM with UAVs is near zero in solo queue.

[Kain Demos]

I have noticed that PUGs love their LRMs. I kill many horrible LRM boat pugs every day---you know the type. Assault 'mech, XL on Atlas or Stalker, no backup weapons, etc.

If anyone is expecting to be successful with multiple players like that on their team they need to adjust their expectations not blame the Hellbringer.

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

Since when is ECM only to thwart LRM's? Clan ECM has no reason to since IS LRM's suck ass compared to clan variants. The launchers are HALF the weight of IS launchers, smaller, and Clan mechs offer far more tubes per mech. The Kitfox-D's STOCK loadout includes more LRM's than I can stuff into most IS mechs - it has more available missile tubes (70) than the 90-ton Highlander 733 (50)! I can predict the single counter argument, AMS affecting streamed vs blobbed missiles; however, when a focused 50-ton Clan mech can bring over 2000 LRM's, the argument gets tossed out the window. AMS will always run out before that.

LOL. IS LRMs have numerous advantages over Clan LRMs.

And if you come across an LRM heavy Clan team just be happy that they are bad and are actually helping you win by choosing **** builds.

[Necromantion]

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

Since when is ECM only to thwart LRM's? Clan ECM has no reason to since IS LRM's suck ass compared to clan variants. The launchers are HALF the weight of IS launchers, smaller, and Clan mechs offer far more tubes per mech. The Kitfox-D's STOCK loadout includes more LRM's than I can stuff into most IS mechs - it has more available missile tubes (70) than the 90-ton Highlander 733 (50)! I can predict the single counter argument, AMS affecting streamed vs blobbed missiles; however, when a focused 50-ton Clan mech can bring over 2000 LRM's, the argument gets tossed out the window. AMS will always run out before that.

The reason Clan ECM makes CW so painful is because it prevents better organization. The fact you can't call out an ID number to focus fire has been brought up already. There's also the point an enemy mech under ECM can flank a LOT easier, as well as cause a delay in the enemy team from reacting - a few of those delays can completely turn the tide of battle. They can fire & find cover faster than it usually takes to retrace the firing vector & scan for a silhouette. They can get IS mechs down to structure before taking any damage themselves. I won't get into the range of the 1-ton weapons they can still pile on, since that's a separate argument for OP Clan tech.

IS LRMs are less susceptible to AMS fire as they are fired in clouds rather than streams first of all.. Also no 50 ton Clan mech can bring 2000 lrms with 50 tubes, especially not with artemis. Your argument is tossed out the window because you swap from Kitfox to stromcrow? If you are using a stormcrow as an LRM platform you are wasting a mech chassis.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ec4f90441662fe2
Theres your "OP" LRM 50 kitfox with basically half the ammo and no artemis. Oh and i had to strip all the armor off one arm
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...68e6580959413c1
Theres your "OP" LRM 50 stormcrow.


Once again both of these builds are utter TRASH not only both missing artemis but having absolutely no alternative weapons which would render them totally useless in many situations which in like of your apparently awful Highlander:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...df4cd5dfbe24a13
STD 300 with artemis, lrm 50 1800 rounds and 2 LLAS
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cf03eddb611c740
315xl with artemis 1950 lrms, 2llas, 2 jjs



Also you can still call targets if someone is close enough to the ecm to transmit the callsigns even without paper doll info, also most units with any experience can still convey what target based on position (timberwolf on f2 hill for example) IS has just as many if not more ECM platforms that are just as viable in a decent team comp though in different weight classes. Youre acting like ECM is something that only Clans have which is absolutely hilarious. Also current LLas buffs have IS competitive at the same ranges as clans with less heat. So once again your argument is totally invalid

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

Oh boo hoo, so your other ECM mechs are similar to the crappy IS offerings. Ever see CW won because of an ECM Spider? Or because a clan team lost track of an Atlas? If any ever did, they'd DESERVE to lose. I won't even go into how IS variants are stuck with one gimped loadouts because they don't have Omnipods. Okay now I will - the 100t Atlas has 7 hardpoints while a Hellbringer can equip up to 10 weapons (and they take 25-50% let slots too!) The Hellbringer is a match for most IS mechs even w/o ECM, while virtually all IS ECM mechs have some glaringly obvious weakness. I've consistently seen Hellbringers with insane match scores, and I consider it rare to see ANY of the IS ECM mechs (combined) do as well in the average match.

Yeah I have actually, maybe the pilots youve seen of the IS mechs have been bad? Did that occur to you? Now to be fair the loadouts for the cicada and spider are kinda meh, but the Raven and DDC are quite capable mechs. Sorry that Clans got an ECM heavy first? The mist lynx and kitfox are meh because of what they lose out on equipping those omnipods.

Updated to your Edit: Unless you run a ton of light mediocre weps you cant use all 10 weapons, on the hellbringer with ecm you are forced to 1 strong weapon and a few lighter backups or 2-4 strong weapons with a ridiculous amount of heat. You really havent played any of these clan mechs that much have you?

Hydrocarbon, on 24 February 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

I wouldn't be hurt one bit if they removed the Zerg Rush, so long as the IS got a strong Heavy mech that just happened to have ECM added.

The black knight? Once again though, you have just repeatedly validated the fact that you havent played both factions to any significant amount because there are counters to EVERY single context that either faction can throw at you.

Edited by Necromantion, 24 February 2015 - 02:26 PM.

[Repasy Cooper]

I built an HBR that holds the following:

1x LB20-X AC

2x SRM-6 + Artemis

2x MPL

3x ERSL

Clan ECM

As far as the "Loki ecm problem" goes, I have the following tips:

Equip NARC.

Bring UAV.

Check your corners.

EDIT:

OH!!!!!!! Forgot to add... watch your butts... hehehe...

Edited by Repasy, 24 February 2015 - 02:49 PM.

[Caustic Canid]

Y'know, I wouldn't mind ECM gettin a nerf if LRMs got a corresponding nerf.

Make flight paths lower, or have more spread when firing indirectly.

I feel like I have a fighting chance with radar-dep, but anyone without it, who isn't in an ECM bubble is pretty much walking scrap. (provided the enemy team has at least 4-5 LRM launchers.)

As it stands, ECM almost exacerbates the problem, since often times there will only ever be one enemy mech on radar, that one mech tends to end up getting the spam from the LRMS.

ECM is practically required due to spam.