115 replies to this topic

[WazOfOz]

nope. soz that you copped some FF, believe me your not the 1st. This weekends challenge has been a great example of the lengths ppl will go to, to get a kill. I don't wanna be punished because A) pll have no situational awareness ppl gotta block every one elses shot to get a kill C) ppl choose to dance over a dead enemy mech whilst my lrms are still on the way D) ppl run through my laser, A/C vomit (I mean its usually very obvious) etc.etc etc I've dealt FF ( not deliberately of cause ) & received it. lets just say I've been playing long enough to realise it's not always the shooters fault. happy hunting mechwarriors

[NextGame]

I would like to see an end of round cbill penalty for team damage done.

[Kotzi]

No need to. Accidents happen to all of us and anyone who does this on purpose would not care anyway.

[PaeuxP22]

As a light pilot I expect some ff. There are a bunch of times that 2/3 lights are circling some poor isolated whale and when that happens ff is expected especially with lasers. I don't want people to worry about hitting me I want them to worry about the other guy, accidental tk is v rare and I would rather get washed with a laser than have someone sit on the sideline waiting for me to die before engaging. If someone runs in front of you that's their problem, it shouldn't be yours

[Otto Cannon]

I think C-bill penalty is the only effective penalty. If damage reflects then griefers can TK you while stopping you from hitting the enemy and not get punished at all. It makes more sense to have to pay for repairs to friendly units as well.

[Rampancy]

Personally I'm a fan of partial-reflection systems, say 50%. With 50% reflection all members of the team are incentivized to avoid friendly fire situations.

[The Ratfink]

How about a limit of FF dmg say 20 per match then everything over this is reflected for the rest of the game. This way the odd stray beam or AC shot shouldn't mess you up to much but as soon as you do it a few times you start to take the Dmg, maybe do it on a curve when it gets to 40 dmg you get x2 reflected , 60 you get x3. I like the idea of a big HUD warning of friendly fire.

Edited by The Ratfink, 25 February 2015 - 01:56 AM.

[Matthew Ace]

How about not just penalty for FF but a cbill bonus for zero FF as well?

[Insects]

Plenty of behavior where the "victim" fully deserved to be shot was shown over the weekend.
Intentional jumping in front to try and get the kill, including running into large lasers half way through their burn.
You could see their desperate logic "I don't care if I have 50% chance of death by this laser beam, I have 50% chance of scoring this kill point so its worth it!".

The fast circling lights are always carelessly running through lasers, its part of the circle tactic, you have to eat some friendly fire because stopping or running directly away will eat the full burn of the enemy's alpha instead of a quick brushing.

LRM does splash damage and they don't really know that someone is face hugging their target when the missiles land seconds later. Or when clever lights actually know how to use enemy's as a shield, awesome kill the LRM boat with its own damage by luring its missiles into its teammate, that would be a fun new tactic.

Reflect damage and the same people reclessly/intentionally shooting will be the same people jumping in front and causing you to take your own damage.

Then the trolls who intentionally jump in the way to make you kill yourself for a laugh.

Just showing it on the scoreboard would be good. Everyone is going to inflict some, but if high its something to be ashamed of.
A "bzzzt" and cross on the screen would be good too.

[PhoenixFire55]

FF penalties should be severe. Like losing 10 points of actual damage from the score for each point of FF damage done. 1 mil c-bills and 1000 gxp for a teamkill as well. L2P or gtfo.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 25 February 2015 - 02:41 AM.

[Willard Phule]

First off, it's pretty obvious to me that the OP is referring to an incident that could have only happened in the Solo Queue.

That's an important distinction. In the Group Queue, you don't get new players in their first 25 matches being used as "filler" on teams to make their Elos even.

That being said, since PGI has OBVIOUSLY decided that they are going to use the Solo Queue as their "new player experience" and "tutorial," all of us that play in the Solo Queue simply have to accept the fact that matches will NEVER be balanced. The better you are, the more new players you're expected to carry without pay.

It is what it is, man.

My suggestion is to learn what mechs are "trial mechs" at any given point in time, identify them in your team, and stay BEHIND them. Use them as shields. Odds are good that they can't unzoom without looking at their hands, so they'll probably be standing still somewhere...flinging LRMs. They're not much use to the team except to take shots that could damage someone that actually knows what they're doing. Use them for what they are. Fodder.

[MeiSooHaityu]

FupDup, on 24 February 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

The problem with nearly any team damage suggestion in general, including this thread's, is the case of False Positives. Not every infliction of team damage is deliberate, and sometimes it might even be more of the "victim's" fault than the shooter's.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

+1

Also, team damage penalties can be just as abused and used as a trolling tool, and it will be worse than what we have now IMO.

For one thing, actual trolls are on new non-primary accounts using trial mechs and could care less about c-bill penalties anyway. So you aren't going to hurt them.

Also, trolls can now intentionally wander into and stay within your LoS preventing you from shooting (for fear of taking unintentional c-bill penalties). They block your shots to steal a kill or just get in your way to tick you off till the enemy kills both of you.

Maybe its my ELO (and trust me, it can't be that high of an ELO), but I rarely have the issue of dealing with trolls. Maybe we all take some friendly fire in combat, but that is part of the chaos of war. Try to check your fire. If it seems to be a new person being a noon, try to inform them and be mindful they are learning. If it seems to be a troll, report them.

[mike29tw]

AUSwarrior24, on 24 February 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

Personally I don't think reflection is the answer. I think there just needs to be more feedback when you do slice through a friendly. Right now, you have zero indication, and IMO 95% of FF is just because players get lazy when they're hunting for a kill. Intentional team damage is another problem entirely.

I think the best way to discourage this is just to make doing it a nuisance. Not just feedback, but annoying feedback. So when you slice your weapons across a friendly, this might come up:

This feels hilariously arcadey.

Match perfectly well with the "INCOMING MISSILE" and "CRITICAL DAMAGE" warning we currently have. I support this.

[Reitrix]

Willard Phule, on 25 February 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

First off, it's pretty obvious to me that the OP is referring to an incident that could have only happened in the Solo Queue.

That's an important distinction. In the Group Queue, you don't get new players in their first 25 matches being used as "filler" on teams to make their Elos even.

That being said, since PGI has OBVIOUSLY decided that they are going to use the Solo Queue as their "new player experience" and "tutorial," all of us that play in the Solo Queue simply have to accept the fact that matches will NEVER be balanced. The better you are, the more new players you're expected to carry without pay.

It is what it is, man.

My suggestion is to learn what mechs are "trial mechs" at any given point in time, identify them in your team, and stay BEHIND them. Use them as shields. Odds are good that they can't unzoom without looking at their hands, so they'll probably be standing still somewhere...flinging LRMs. They're not much use to the team except to take shots that could damage someone that actually knows what they're doing. Use them for what they are. Fodder.

What we really need is a visible ranking system for players.
No, not so people can "lol look at how leet i am", but rather, so the MatchMaker can make groups that make sense.
Not only that, but have the game apply a role to a loadout when you save it. If you put an AC20 into a Raven, the game gives you the role "Fast Striker", put in a pair of ERLLs and you're a "Scout Sniper". That sort of thing.

Right now we have the invisible elo system. Sometimes it makes a nice match, most of the time not.
If we had a "Cadet/Recruit/Lieutenant/Sergeant" etc, using proper BattleTech titles, we could have the MM throw together a team that has equally skilled players in equal amounts.
But maybe i just want the Trials back from Ghost Bears Legacy.

As it is, people tend to follow the pack not because someone is truly leading, but because of herd mentality. New players will follow anyone so they can see what it is they're meant to do, and if the new players are following other new players ...

Besides, having visible ranks would give people something to work towards. At least in my opinion.
Edit: Also, having Ranks instead of a Magic Number would give us visibly balanced matches. Unlike now, where for all you know you have 2 skilled players stuck with 10 Cadets in their 26th match because the Magic Number says because the total number = XXXX that the match is balanced.

Edited by Reitrix, 25 February 2015 - 03:53 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

My solution, which has not changed the past 2 years:

• Make Betty give an audible warning when you shoot a friendly mech
  
• Make the reticule change colour (e.g. blue) when you shoot a friendly mech
  
• Exponential C-bill and XP penalties for friendly fire. I.e. low penalties for swiping your laser over a friendly target. High penalties for a full alpha strike into a friendly back. Extreme penalties for high damage over time in a single match.
  
• Extra penalties for component destruction
  
• Make it a lot easier to see the amount of friendly fire after each match, not just number of teamkills.

I don't like the reflected damage idea at all, for one reason alone. Mah immerzion! Seriously, I'd rather have a mechanic where an AI airstrike is aimed directly at my mech or something, but not this Hand of God that suddenly rips my internals out if a friendly target jumps out of left field to hug my target for a kill.

I mean, sometimes you can just stop firing if someone tries to steal your kill by hugging the target. But if they're hugging a dangerous target with lots of firepower, you can't just hang back and wait for your teammates to deal with him. Perfect example, light mechs hugging Dire Wolves. The Dire Wolf ignores the light mech, but you have to risk shooting the friendly light mech or just stand there and absorb firepower untill that Commando either moves away or somehow manages to kill the Dire Wolf after 3-4 minutes.

But yeah. Immersion. It's still important to me.

[Willard Phule]

Alistair Winter, on 25 February 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

My solution, which has not changed the past 2 years:

• Make Betty give an audible warning when you shoot a friendly mech
  
• Make the reticule change colour (e.g. blue) when you shoot a friendly mech
  
• Exponential C-bill and XP penalties for friendly fire. I.e. low penalties for swiping your laser over a friendly target. High penalties for a full alpha strike into a friendly back. Extreme penalties for high damage over time in a single match.
  
• Extra penalties for component destruction
  
• Make it a lot easier to see the amount of friendly fire after each match, not just number of teamkills.

I don't like the reflected damage idea at all, for one reason alone. Mah immerzion! Seriously, I'd rather have a mechanic where an AI airstrike is aimed directly at my mech or something, but not this Hand of God that suddenly rips my internals out if a friendly target jumps out of left field to hug my target for a kill.


I mean, sometimes you can just stop firing if someone tries to steal your kill by hugging the target. But if they're hugging a dangerous target with lots of firepower, you can't just hang back and wait for your teammates to deal with him. Perfect example, light mechs hugging Dire Wolves. The Dire Wolf ignores the light mech, but you have to risk shooting the friendly light mech or just stand there and absorb firepower untill that Commando either moves away or somehow manages to kill the Dire Wolf after 3-4 minutes.

But yeah. Immersion. It's still important to me.

Here's the thing, though.

We've already established that new players simply don't learn in the solo queue. Take that as a given. Whether it's because they speak a different language than the people that are trying to help them or it's because they simply don't care, new players are always going to be a problem in the Solo Queue.

What's the point in punishing them further than making them play with people that are going to berate them for being useless? What's the point in taking cbills away from them when they already can't afford their own mech after the first 25 matches?

No, the easiest solution is to come up with a completely different ranking system than this stupid Elo thing they've got. Stop putting the inexperienced people in with the experienced ones and the friendly fire will change significantly.

[Finkledbody]

I'm on the fence with this topic. It happened to me yesterday while playing caustic valley. I had my position shooting at the enemy 250-275m out. 2 minutes into this a friendly Direwolf comes up behind me to help out. With his left arm behind me and his right arm out enough to hit he enemy, he started firing off volley after volley. He totally wiped out my right side torso and arm before he realized it. All I could get out while It was happening was "wtf, friendly fire?". What did the Direwolf say, "oh sorry, I was zoomed in and didn't see you there. *facepalm*

On the other side of things.

A round or two after that I came over the hill on the small snowy map (can't remember the name) to see 5 or 6 enemies in the valley bellow. I started firing off my dual AC/20's to find out the game was a bit slow in relaying the green triangle above a friendlies head. I must of pumped 4 or 5 rounds into him before the game gave me the info that he was a friendly. I promptly apologized but whos fault is that? Should I be penalized for the games inability to keep up with everything it has to display?

No thanks.

[sceii]

I am against any FF penalties.
Sometime i manage to do ff, sometimes i get ff.
There was a pug match on alpines, when i was in my 4g, i teamed with raven, who circlejerked enemy mechs, and i gave him ac20 firepower(we killed like 3-5 mechs this way). in the end of match, i accidently killed him with ac20 round (he was circling way too fast and got an ac20 to the back). I did not wanted to kill him. I really regreted this, but he said it was his fault.
When i play laservomit people tend not to see burning lasers and go in my fireline, should i be puniched for jerks going in fireline?
There are not so many games with full FF, and i find full FF awesome.

[Bellum Dominum]

LordKnightFandragon, on 24 February 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

Well, the players need a massive lesson in situational awareness in general.

So, 100% reflection for FF will result in both sides of the house paying more attention to their Friendly fire. Players will move better, or get shot and others will aim better, and be more careful with their placement. Its a win win really....

Are you just trying to invite back all the trolls and feed them with a perfect mechanic for them to do what they do and make it much harder to be caught at it or simply had a thought that without consideration of the ramifications of it's implementation appears to be an answer to YOUR problem?

The OP with the reflection suggestion needs to reflect upon more experience playing this game.
So many things bad about this idea that it's a: lose, lose, lose, lose, lose, lose, win, lose, lose, lose, lose, lose, win, lose, lose, lose, lose, etc, etc etc.

[Alistair Winter]

AUSwarrior24, on 24 February 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

Personally I don't think reflection is the answer. I think there just needs to be more feedback when you do slice through a friendly. Right now, you have zero indication, and IMO 95% of FF is just because players get lazy when they're hunting for a kill. Intentional team damage is another problem entirely.

I think the best way to discourage this is just to make doing it a nuisance. Not just feedback, but annoying feedback. So when you slice your weapons across a friendly, this might come up:

Or.... this?