63 replies to this topic

[CK16]

Sorry but rant time

RANT: I have came to the consensus lately....that lasers beat all....its sad...I remember in MW4 where you had that one Ballistic weapon that could pack a punch with lasers to it back up...Now its just better to put a large laser or two instead, gives more "firepower"....Can they buff ballistics to the point that having one on your mech can be useful instead of a handy cap...All energy weapons are better then thier counter parts that are ballistic...LRM's are a joke unless you spam the living piss out of them, but SRM's do their job...I understand there is a balance in game for things...this isn't a total mech simulator like MW4 was (as much as it could in the day) or Living legends...But would be nice to have it closer to that and not brawling lanes (feels like they only want close combat while keeping long range combat weak and boring with little damage.

[YueFei]

I take it you've never been impaled by the Gigaspike Whale yet?

[Water Bear]

I just want to take this moment to say:

My, how the meta has changed since I started playing, eh?

[Asyres]

You can't come to a consensus by yourself.

Anyway, I'm guessing you're playing Clan, because IS ballistics are (generally) at least okay. The biggest problem with the clan ACs is the burst, which removes the main advantage of a big, heavy ballistic (PPFLD). They really need some other advantage to make them a more attractive option.

[terrycloth]

The damage you can do with lasers is strictly limited by your heat capacity and dissipation. Start with medium lasers and upgrade as needed, but the difference in damage per heat is minimal as you add tonnage.

You can go beyond that by adding ballistics, and many people do. However, the competitive solution is to add a gauss rifle specifically because its velocity is super-high and it can be used with lasers most easily. Hardly anything has the tonnage to max out lasers after using a gauss rifle, so there you go -- gauss + lasers.

Missiles are better damage per heat too, but the short range makes them an unpopular choice for clans. IS lasers are just as short ranged, so you see them on IS mechs. Also, at short range, other ballistics than gauss become practical, so again -- you see them on IS mechs.

[FupDup]

YueFei, on 25 February 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

I take it you've never been impaled by the Gigaspike Whale yet?

Most of the Gigaspike Whale's alpha comes from the 6 ERML and 2 ERLL, to be fair.

The 30 points from the Gauss however still does hurt...

Edited by FupDup, 25 February 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[ROSS-128]

I've generally found that Ballistics work best on heavy/assault mechs, who often have a large surplus of tonnage relative to their hardpoints.

Ballistics' three strengths are low heat, fast cycle time, and zero burn time. Low visibility is situationally useful but not a primary reason to take them.

This makes them good pushing weapons. They put down a steady barrage of heat-neutral (or nearly so) DPS, re-adjusting aim between shots to consistently spike a single component.

Their weakness is horrible alpha/weight ratio, making them bad at poking and unlikely to open a push by instantly coring or killing a side torso.

This mostly comes from playing Banshees though. My 3E has horrible alpha, can't initiate well but is a great pusher, dealing roughly 11 heat neutral DPS with AC5s and assisting with lasers. It can sustain a push, but its low alpha means someone else has to start it.

My wubshee 3M has terrifying alpha, can strongly initiate a push by instantly coring a medium or low end heavy, or ripping the side torso clean off a Dire Wolf. But it runs so hot it can't sustain that, it can start a push but someone else has to finish it.

[Weeny Machine]

ACs (IS) are in this game ok but not good. Let's see (compared to lasers)...

Con ACs:
- Weight
- Ammunition dependency which also adds to the weight
- Velocity
- because of the last 2 points less useful in long ranged combat

Pro:
- Less heat than lasers
- instant damage (granted, to do full damage you need to keep the beam on the target)
(- if it hits, all damage is applied while a laser can be spread out but if you miss or hit the wrong spot...well all damage is waster. I am not sure therefore if it is really a pro)

And once more the culprit which makes this weapon system less useful than lasers is convergance. In the TT an AC/10 and 20 (especially the latter) pact a beastly amount of direct damage on one spot. Here you can basically use 4 medium lasers and you got an AC/20.

Edit: The amount of laser vomit in random games just shows that something is wrong. I am not often hit by AC/10s and even less from AC/20s for example.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 25 February 2015 - 12:56 PM.

[Zeece]

I mainly use PPCs and Autocannons on my mechs.... as IS players they are nasty effective for anyone who is a good shot... much easier to core someone that spraying the mech with laser fire.

[HammerForge]

I know you wouldn't be able to tell from my K/D ratio, but recent change to my video card has left me in a better position to play without rage quit. This also has led to my ratio going from .5 to over 1 for the first time. I can tell you the other part of that has been larger caliber ballistics. AC10's and 20's have been going on more of my mechs, and that is pinpoint damage, and allows me to protect my mech faster. Fire and twist, rinse, repeat, and not many mechs can stand long with you. Especially if they are spashing all over the place with lasers, I can stand toe to toe with almost any mech in my Mediums.

Don't get me wrong, lasers are great, especially for legging lights or reaching out from a distance to a moving target. But I like the ability to deliver full damage to one spot and torso twist immediately to make sure I am getting damaged more likely where I want it to happen.

[N a p e s]

Nothing compares to big ballistics.

[stjobe]

Why bring ballistics? Because DAKKA, that's why.

MOAR DAKKA!

Edit: Also, PPFLD still kills faster and easier than non-PPFLD.

Edited by stjobe, 25 February 2015 - 01:20 PM.

[Ecrof]

mega spike whale
DWF-S
Giga spike whale
DWF-S

Edited by Ecrof, 25 February 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[FupDup]

Ecrof, on 25 February 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

mega spike whale
DWF-S

That build mostly died when PPC projectile speed got nerfed into the ground. Nowadays the term "Gigaspike" refers to 2 Gauss + 2 ERLL + 6 ERML.

[SolCrusher]

6 UAC2's that's why. My DWF with 2200 rounds or so of ammo does melt things. People probably laugh at me and say I can tank this barrage of AC2 fire. People are mistaken and I can cripple mechs at a great range. When I run out of ammo, i can count on a 1000+ dmg match and 3 or more kills. It's almost easy mode, except I'm in a whale!

Now give me UAC2 on a Crab and tears would flow, tears already flow when I'm firing 4 UAC5s.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Asyres, on 25 February 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

You can't come to a consensus by yourself.

Anyway, I'm guessing you're playing Clan, because IS ballistics are (generally) at least okay. The biggest problem with the clan ACs is the burst, which removes the main advantage of a big, heavy ballistic (PPFLD). They really need some other advantage to make them a more attractive option.

I see that Russ has mentioned a small velocity increase for clan ballistics. That should help.

I have a feeling that the base stats for clan ballistics won't change too much, but instead will be altered on a per chassis basis via quirks. Maybe some chassis will receive shorter bursts between rounds for ultrasultras, or tighter spread on LBXs, etc. Maybe the Dire Whale will even see certain negative ballistic quirks. Hard to say.

[CK16]

OK so with my Timber-S I just bought I want a hard hitter....since can only mount 2 ballistics really...what is best set up? I usually like a bit of everything on my other timbers...So shoot.

[Ecrof]

FupDup, on 25 February 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

That build mostly died when PPC projectile speed got nerfed into the ground. Nowadays the term "Gigaspike" refers to 2 Gauss + 2 ERLL + 6 ERML.

Okay thanks

[Beastbear]

Crottykid16, on 25 February 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

OK so with my Timber-S I just bought I want a hard hitter....since can only mount 2 ballistics really...what is best set up? I usually like a bit of everything on my other timbers...So shoot.

Twin gauss. Ac's arent as terribad as peeps make out, but they aren't in a good place compared to their is brothers, either.

[Mawai]

I am laughing at this ... not at the OP though.

1) I find it amazing that the meta might have finally swung around to lasers.
- 4 or 6 PPC
- dual gauss
- dual PPC + gauss
- dual AC20
- dual PPC + AC10
- triple or quad UAC5
- quad or more AC5 (AC2's are interesting but mostly novelty ).

- and finally we are around to boated lasers

2) Honestly, I haven't found any problems with boated lasers so far .. they can be effective but not noticeably that much more than other builds and they often run hot. CW may change things up a bit since the lack of ammo dependence may favour energy weapons but in PUG matches it still doesn't matter.

3) I have both laser and ballistics builds that can be very effective. I find PPCs are still a bit hot for the damage they do. The pre-nerf TDR-9S was admittedly too good ... but the post nerf one (with the 25% heat reduction) just doesn't perform as well as other quirked mechs.

4) I play mostly IS ... it may be that the clans are preferring lasers since every clan weapon is a damage over time (even the autocannons effectively due to multiple shells) ... so it comes down to choosing which is the most heat efficient vs tonnage efficient and PPFLD is not really a consideration.