273 replies to this topic

[Ashnod]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

no in fact I understand your point quite clearly. you want restored jumpjet mobility.

I on the other hand do not want jumpjet mobility restored. I think its fine how it is. mechs with jumpjets no longer have a significant advantage over mechs without jumpjets. Thats how it should be.

Besides the entire concept of jumpjets lifting mechs that weigh dozens of tons is absurd. Anyone with a basic understanding of physics could tell you the force required is simply not feasible. Even for a game its ridiculous.



how so? I didnt refute anything I said.

Jump jet equipped mechs should be much much more mobile than non jump jet equipped mechs... It's kinda supposed to be the point to bringing them..

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Utilizing vertical option in addition to left and right raises the potential for piloting skill.

Poptarts may have had the option to corner peak, but I don't remember seeing very many make use of it...just saying. Considering poptarts also had the advantage of gravity helping them out to decelerate behind cover, poptarting is and probably always will be easier than corner peaking.

[Soy]

WM Quicksilver, on 01 March 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

Poptarts may have had the option to corner peak, but I don't remember seeing very many make use of it...just saying. Considering poptarts also had the advantage of gravity helping them out to decelerate behind cover, poptarting is and probably always will be easier than corner peaking.

I fail to see how utilizing more options is easier. It's more complex thus the potential for piloting skill is higher. A lot? I dunno, kinda subjective. In my opinion it's a bit more skillful than boulder rocking. But again I think the boulder rocker has to be making wiser choices, so they might have to be a smarter player. But certainly not a better pilot, since they're.. well.. piloting on an inherently less-interactive level.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

I fail to see how utilizing more options is easier. It's more complex thus the potential for piloting skill is higher. A lot? I dunno, kinda subjective. In my opinion it's a bit more skillful than boulder rocking. But again I think the boulder rocker has to be making wiser choices, so they might have to be a smarter player. But certainly not a better pilot, since they're.. well.. piloting on an inherently less-interactive level.

Utilizing it is different from having it, and I don't remember seeing most poptarts utilizing it. Poptarting wasn't and still isn't the only method of weeding out skilled players from non-skilled players. It was just another dimension of the battle that was way too powerful considering all the problems associated with it. Why would you corner peak and take with it all the risk associated with it when you could poptart effectively and not have a care in the world? That was the problem with JJs as they existed, the risk was not on equal terms considering the advantages that come with it.

Good players minimize mistakes and to make smart decisions (risk minimizing) and poptarting was easily the best way to minimize mistakes because it is much harder to corner/hill peak than jump snipe effectively. Skilled players don't try and make use of convoluted systems, they abuse ones that are easy and maximize their ability to use them. The Large Laser days of MW4 are a perfect example of that.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 01 March 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[Soy]

Why exactly is corner peaking so risky and ineffective? It's always been a strong and viable tactic, but requires better tactical decisions since less options.

It doesn't require as much piloting skill, since you're only going forward and backwards essentially.

Positionally, a turret rocker has to play their movements a bit more precise, but overall they're moving a whole lot less and thus interacting less with actual piloting.

Thus, they shouldn't be on equal terms. They still aren't, but it's fairly close.

The prevelency of tarting is gone, and that's the only legitimate thing that people wanted regarding it. The rest was cry.

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bloodweaver, on 01 March 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

Removing butt rockets entirely, is also just removing options. It shouldn't be difficult to make it so that one to two tons' worth of jumpjets gives you controllable flight, whereas four to ten tons' worth becomes progressively more propulsive and harder to control. Let the player choose how he wants his jets to work.


Agreed 100%. Jump jets in MWO have at no point ever been anything close to OP. They've always been underwhelming - they just happen to be even more underwhelming than before, now...

so paying a heavier tax to get MORE JJs actually punishes the pilot? Not sure I see the appeal. Especially since the concept of throttle control is about as old as powered flight itself.

[Naduk]

I agree with OP 99%
Jump jet heat needs to stay
Its a great decision maker
Do you jump and snipe that 3rd time and risk a shutdown
Better hope you land the killing blow

Really all that needs to happen at this point is the jump thrust ramp need to scale up more for the larger mechs
1-2 jets should do almost nothing like now, but max load should be like days past jj power

We have the systems in place
Just need to tune them

[MikeBend]

Fixing HowerJets will inevitably brake CW even more, as even Assaults will be able to jump the gates. So there are consequences, imo. But i agree, that something has to be done about those HowerJets.

[Bloodweaver]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

so paying a heavier tax to get MORE JJs actually punishes the pilot? Not sure I see the appeal. Especially since the concept of throttle control is about as old as powered flight itself.

It doesn't punish the pilot. It rockets you. You gain thrust, speed, lift, mobility, while losing some of that floaty, easy, gliding-mode naptime effect. You may not see the appeal, but I and a lot of other players do. And the point is that you'd be able to choose what you wanted out of your jets, instead of being forced into one version or the other.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Why exactly is corner peaking so risky and ineffective? It's always been a strong and viable tactic, but requires better tactical decisions since less options.

It doesn't require as much piloting skill, since you're only going forward and backwards essentially.

Positionally, a turret rocker has to play their movements a bit more precise, but overall they're moving a whole lot less and thus interacting less with actual piloting.

Thus, they shouldn't be on equal terms. They still aren't, but it's fairly close.

The prevelency of tarting is gone, and that's the only legitimate thing that people wanted regarding it. The rest was cry.

Deceleration of mech < Gravity meaning twisting is more important because exposure time is longer.
Heavily dictated by terrain as opposed to jump sniping just requiring rocks that are mech high.

As far as jump sniping taking more skill because it isn't back and forth, you do realize that's all jumptarts needed right? Find a lane that is covered, jump one way, turn around and jump the other way so you can maximize both vertical and horizontal movement. Of course throw in some "randomness" with timing and direction occasionally and always be on the look out for better positioning in response to enemy movement, but that goes with corner peaking as well.

[C E Dwyer]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Why exactly is corner peaking so risky and ineffective? It's always been a strong and viable tactic, but requires better tactical decisions since less options.

It doesn't require as much piloting skill, since you're only going forward and backwards essentially.

Positionally, a turret rocker has to play their movements a bit more precise, but overall they're moving a whole lot less and thus interacting less with actual piloting.

Thus, they shouldn't be on equal terms. They still aren't, but it's fairly close.

The prevelency of tarting is gone, and that's the only legitimate thing that people wanted regarding it. The rest was cry.

its more risky because your a target before your in a position to fire as your arm and side torso are visible before your cockpit rounds the corner to see your target, then you have to brake reverse,your exposed for far longer than old style poptarting, as the jj's launched you faster than you could move, this isn't WoT where the enemy sights have to converge.

this is why poptarting was so powerful, you could 'pop' reposition and pop again from behind the same ridge, corner popping your all ways going to be at the same corner at the same level, corner popping is just a good way of getting shot to pieces by any half awake pilot with some brains.

[Bishop Steiner]

MikeBend, on 01 March 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Fixing HowerJets will inevitably brake CW even more, as even Assaults will be able to jump the gates. So there are consequences, imo. But i agree, that something has to be done about those HowerJets.

That may be so. Just means CW bases need better design. Also "better JJs" does not mean your average Highlander is going to rocket over massive walls. I don't believe pre Nerf even the Heavy MEtal would. But one should see a lot more return for investment than they currently do.

Cathy, on 01 March 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

this is why poptarting was so powerful, you could 'pop' reposition and pop again from behind the same ridge, corner popping your all ways going to be at the same corner at the same level, corner popping is just a good way of getting shot to pieces by any half awake pilot with some brains.

In fairness most poptarters who did not change positions a lot got shot by good players, too. As a medium, I find it advantageous to constantly shift position and corner peak from different corners. Get predictable you deserve to get face melted.

Naduk, on 01 March 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

I agree with OP 99%
Jump jet heat needs to stay
Its a great decision maker
Do you jump and snipe that 3rd time and risk a shutdown
Better hope you land the killing blow

Really all that needs to happen at this point is the jump thrust ramp need to scale up more for the larger mechs
1-2 jets should do almost nothing like now, but max load should be like days past jj power

We have the systems in place
Just need to tune them

I did forget the heat part, which I agree, should stay. Thanks, will add that to OP.

[Bagheera]

Artgathan, on 01 March 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Jump jets are clearly still too strong, that's why one of the new Panthers traded out a weapon hardpoint for the ability to mount four extra jump jets! Don't even get me started about the Spider-5V. It's basically a god amongst light mechs, ascending to its heavenly throne through atop a dozen jump jets.

VTR-9S really wants to enjoy your sarcasm, but it just cannot.

Before you nerds get started: no, you cannot "pop-tart" with an AC20, MLs, and SRMs. That build was for dancing until The Russinator broke its knee-caps as if it owed him money.

Edited by Bagheera, 01 March 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[Soy]

I got quoted at twice about some vapid ****... no offense, just, we're in circles now.

People have been turret rocking to crest for shots since the dawn of time in this game, same as poptarting. They're both effective. Poptarting requires more piloting skill and less tactical decisions. There was a time in meta where it had crystallized enough that it reached critical mass in terms of prevalence. That was the only legit complaint about it, in retrospect.

That's about the jest of it.

Both are still viable currently, tarting is a tad more difficult than it used to be, and rightly so... tarting prevalence is down... I don't see why buffing JJs to accomodate bigs doing DFAs should require arbitrarily nerfing reticle... if anything, just get the silly collision detection working tighter, then DFAs and facehumping derplights would shift a bit.

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 03:38 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

I got quoted at twice about some vapid ****... no offense, just, we're in circles now.

People have been turret rocking to crest for shots since the dawn of time in this game, same as poptarting. They're both effective. Poptarting requires more piloting skill and less tactical decisions. There was a time in meta where it had crystallized enough that it reached critical mass in terms of prevalence. That was the only legit complaint about it, in retrospect.

That's about the jest of it.

Both are still viable currently, tarting is a tad more difficult than it used to be, and rightly so... tarting prevalence is down... I don't see why buffing JJs to accomodate bigs doing DFAs should require arbitrarily nerfing reticle... if anything, just get the silly collision detection working tighter, then DFAs and facehumping derplights would shift a bit.

because if Assaults mechs got their Jump Mojo back without a counter to super accurate and easy jump sniping, the Rise of the Dragon Slayer would happen again?

And again, aside from one single offhand comment, where is the OP commenting about DFAs? Oh yeah, it ain't.
Any other context you want to ignore?

[Soy]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

jumping of all sorts was essentially ruined.

This is truly a stupid comment.

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

This is truly a stupid comment.

That's nice. Do I look like I actually care about your opinion?

I think far more people on these forums are displeased with the state of Hover Jets than agree with you, so , oops, oh well.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 March 2015 - 03:48 PM.

[Soy]

Yeah agreed... and many more than that amount on this forum are complete idiots with very little understanding of the game... but oh well. =/

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 03:50 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yup. Sadly, having good reflexes and playing follow the leader doesn't make most of the "pros" any better at actually balancing a game, either.... but whatever.

[Soy]

No doubt!