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Dear Pgi, Are We Ever Going To Get Our Jj Mobility Back?


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#1 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 09:11 AM

Just as the title says.

Many moons ago, Jumpjets were nerfed into Hover Jets. The Highlander was turned into a geriatric that can't skip rope, let alone actually jump. The Victor? While many of the wrongs inflicted on this once proud chassis have been righted, it still lacks, significantly.

All in a heavy handed, and misguided attempt to curb the former plague of Poptarting, that once gripped MWO like an iron fist. And the real sad part? Almost NONE of those changes were even necessary, nor terribly effective at breaking the Meta, until they finally laid so many layers of nerfs on top of one another, jumping of all sorts was essentially ruined.

Mind you, SOME good things were implemented. Things that need to stay.
-Scaling JJ thrust.
-Fall damage
*EDIT, thanks for pointing this out Naduk*
-JJ heat


Both are good mechanics, that minimize other abuses, like the 1x JJ poptart/assault mechs, and Light Mechs with no situational awareness throwing themselves off 150 meter high cliffs, with no JJs, and taking essentially, no damage. The only people upset by those changes were those abusing them, in the first place. (Though the fall damage did need adjustments). So, to those complaints? Sorry, L2P.

But some BAD things got implemented, and those need to be restored, or at least looked into, and partially restored:
- JJ thrust, power and distance. Some mechs, like the Highlander, are literally a joke. 6-10 tons of JJs achieve next to nothing, slow as a pig. Perhaps we don't need TT level of Jumping (180-210 meters, etc), but the current Hover Jets are pretty universally reviled. Yes, it might cause some issues with CW's wall heights. Make them taller, add more turrets, hide the gate generators better.
- The aerial agility, particularly on the Victor and Highlander. For some reason PGI is convinced the VTR is a Tier 1 mech still. It is not, and has not been for quite some time. All Jumpers are still paying for the sins of the Poptart Gang. It generally sucks as a Poptart now (fine by me), but also is quite subpar as a flanker/brawler/skirmisher. Instead of ridiculously overquirked mechs like the previous generation TDR-9S as the "savior of the IS", let's fix the underlying issues and let mechs shine again like they once did pre-nerf.

So, that, in a nutshell, IMO, is the Problem.

What is the Solution?

One I actually proposed BEFORE any of the nerfs were implemented. One that is stupendously simple in execution and function, but ultimately effective because of that very simplicity.

The simplest, and best IMO (yes a few "Pros" did not like it, yet when I asked them to explain WHY it was a bad idea, not one single one could or did.), is to utilize the already existent "Reticle Shake" mechanic.

On the up jump, the crosshair bounce all over the place. When you cut violent thrust, the vibrations don't stop instantaneously, nor would the targeting computer instantly have the weapons perfectly aligned again. Moving a 7 ton gun takes time.

Simply extend the JJ shake for a full second (can be reduced some if needed, .5 seconds may prove sufficient.) after thrust is cut (preferably having it scale down over the duration.), and the issue is solved. And yes, it really is that simple.

By doing this;

-one needs to equip more JJs if one want's to jump high enough to still have a target window when the shaking stops. So thanks to the thrust scaling and this, no more "1 JJ specials".
-because one has to jump higher, you risk more leg damage now, if you don't equip enough JJs and save enough thrust to cushion said landing.
-Because one now has to jump high enough to have weapons exposed when the reticle stops shaking, one is forced to expose more of the mech, for a longer period, thus reducing the ridiculous risk to reward ratio that Poptarting once enjoyed.

And why is it better than what we currently have, since Poptarting is so significantly reduced, now?

-Because one could restore the old level of jump jet thrust and mobility without it incurring the "Rise of the Poptart Overlords" again.
-There would be zero reason for the VTR nd HGN to jump so poorly and have such poor aerial agility, which still significantly restricts their brawling ability.
-No need for "all or nothing" or other violent/uncontrolled thrust mechanics.

And it literally would require what, adjusting a line of code in an HTML file?

so, TL;DR? Revert or reduce the JJ nerfs currently in effect, save for scaling thrust and fall damage. In place of the layers of poorly thought out bandaids, simply extend the "Reticle Shake" currently experience while under thrust, to continue for a short period after thrust is cut. (for reasons listed in the OP.)

Don't agree, don't like it? That's fine. Articulate WHY, and feel free to propose a better solution. I do think most of us would at least agree that Hover Jets as is, are less than desirable, and the the VTR and HGN still remain neutered.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 March 2015 - 03:27 PM.


#2 Vassago Rain

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 09:33 AM

But you've told me so many times that there are no bad mechs, only bad pilots.

Did you go through a position change? Why don't you adapt and overcome?

#3 FupDup

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 09:34 AM

Want mobility? This is what real mobility looks like:





#4 Artgathan

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 09:38 AM

Jump jets are clearly still too strong, that's why one of the new Panthers traded out a weapon hardpoint for the ability to mount four extra jump jets! Don't even get me started about the Spider-5V. It's basically a god amongst light mechs, ascending to its heavenly throne through atop a dozen jump jets.

#5 stjobe

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 09:39 AM

Make the jump jets powerful enough and they won't be much use for poptarting, but they will be hella fun for maneuvering.

Poptarting works best with slow, easily controllable jump jets, so let's make ours FAST and POWERFUL :)

#6 Jabilo

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 09:41 AM

Where mechs devote a lot of tonnage to full jump jets they deserve to have greater mobility than they do now.

I agree that jump jet scaling and fall damage was a good start and I am up for innovative solutions that give us back jump jet fun without bringing back pop tarting.

This seems like a pretty good idea, as long as shake is restricted to the reticle and cockpit shake is not brought back.

However care needs to be taken not to gimp lights who are running and gunning. They have already traded weapon tonnage for mobility by virtue of selecting a light mech. In addition they historically never contributed to the pop tart problem so should not be penalised now.

How about we take your suggestion and modify it by linking the penalty to weight class?

Jump jet shake is increased by the following (time subject to adjustment):

Light mechs: No adjustment.
Medium mechs: 0.25 seconds
Heavy mehcs: 0.5 seconds
Assault mechs: 0.75 seconds

However, exactly as you suggested mechs who commit high tonnage to packing jets get their mobility back...

If necessary jump jet scaling can be tweaked to be even more aggressive, so that sky soaring is restricted only to those prepared to spend high tonnage.

Also I have been off the forums for a while, I know that jump turning could not be linked to jump jet scaling due to some back end bug. Was this eve fixed and introduced? If not I think this would also be a good thing to throw into the mix...

#7 Monkey Lover

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 09:46 AM

yes yes!! let the jump jets return to the glory of old.


"**warming up his poptart builds thinking about killing the clans, yummy***"

#8 RedDevil

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 09:54 AM

I joined late to the game after the changes, and even I was fairly surprised at how underwhelming jump jets were. I didn't have the previous jump jets to compare to and the current ones still feel awful.

Jump jets should give great mobility, and horrible accuracy. Not poor mobility and normal accuracy.

Well that's just my opinion.

#9 Armorine

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:03 AM

I approve this idea. I want book levels of mobility.... Even though I don't have a single mech capable of mounting jjs

#10 Pjwned

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:03 AM

I would just like to say I found while piloting my Victor in River City that I could not manage to jump up the tiny lip to the airplane platform (when approaching from the water) with 2 tons of jumpjets equipped and a huge XL 370 engine on top of that; I would also like to mention that it can be a struggle to jump out of the water over the ~10m high lip even with smaller mechs that have 1 ton of jumpjets.

That is pathetic, I don't need to fly around like a spider (hence only equipping 1-2 tons of jumpjets) but the jumpjets do need to be actually functional for getting over small obstacles, and a frustrating number of times they don't even do that.

Edited by Pjwned, 01 March 2015 - 10:10 AM.


#11 Lostdragon

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:08 AM

LL JJ or bust!

#12 Gilgamesh Drakenor

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:08 AM

100% agreed with the proposed solution.

#13 Weeny Machine

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:10 AM

The targeting reticle should just bounce around madly so that poptarting wouldn't work or only in the hands of EXTREMELY skilled or lucky dudes

Edited by Bush Hopper, 01 March 2015 - 10:21 AM.


#14 C E Dwyer

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:14 AM

Agreed JJ's nerf has made the highlander and the Vic has beens.

Reticle shake ain't so sure of as it gimps all ranges, rather see a range vision reduction to kick on with jump jets, fluff reasons being moon dust, exhaust fumes flying pigs in the way. thats in the game now also in the form of night vision it does increase your vison at close ranges but makes you completely blind outside about 750 meters.

This is what I would like to see, and set it around 150 meters as it won't gimp jump brawling and it won't cause headaches, or motion sickness.

now it does carry some disadvantages such as jump scouting would be of zero use , but i'd rather take the cons it causes to have the benefits it would give

#15 stjobe

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:14 AM

View PostBush Hopper, on 01 March 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

The targeting reticule should just bounce around madly so that poptarting wouldn't work or only in the hands of EXTREMELY skilled or lucky dudes

The current shake is enough - IF it's on from lift-off to touchdown. None of this "just while the jets are firing" stuff, keep it on until you're back on the ground.

That would be all the counter pop-tarting needs, and won't really hurt non-poptarts much, since they usually are close enough to hit the target even with reticule shake (I'm thinking lights and JJ-equipped brawlers here).

#16 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:17 AM

View Poststjobe, on 01 March 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Make the jump jets powerful enough and they won't be much use for poptarting, but they will be hella fun for maneuvering.

Poptarting works best with slow, easily controllable jump jets, so let's make ours FAST and POWERFUL :)

as a Medium jock, I don't want titan rockets on my butt, I prefer more controllability for maneuvering (can just see overshooting a sniper perch instead of landing on it), thus my proposal. Which negates the "ease" of poptarting, without eliminating it, or the ability of Lighter mechs to still shoot while in the air (though classic 1000m PPC shots may still be difficult..too bad, they should be).

View PostBush Hopper, on 01 March 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

The targeting reticule should just bounce around madly so that poptarting wouldn't work or only in the hands of EXTREMELY skilled or lucky dudes

That's kinda the point of the OP. Nobody gets good shots off while the reticle is shaking, currently, either.

View Poststjobe, on 01 March 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

The current shake is enough - IF it's on from lift-off to touchdown. None of this "just while the jets are firing" stuff, keep it on until you're back on the ground.

That would be all the counter pop-tarting needs, and won't really hurt non-poptarts much, since they usually are close enough to hit the target even with reticule shake (I'm thinking lights and JJ-equipped brawlers here).

Disagree, doesn't need to be the full "let off" duration. Removing poptarting entirely, is just removing options. Simply increasing the risk/reward (much like it is now, overall) is IMO, more desirable. The shot window while jumping is not especially huge anyhow, unless you expose yourself to return fire for a long time.

#17 PappySmurf

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:17 AM

I hope they go back to pre JJ nerf times when the jumpjets were fun to use and a viable asset. The players whining about pop-snipers was like 1% of the community and there also were PGI,S closest crony's that they drop with sad pathetic excuse to nerf all the jump jets in the first place.

#18 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:19 AM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 01 March 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

yes yes!! let the jump jets return to the glory of old.


"**warming up his poptart builds thinking about killing the clans, yummy***"

Yeah, if you read the full proposal, your poptarts will be about 25% as effective as previously. Also don't forget the Clans can poptart, too.

View PostJabilo, on 01 March 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

Where mechs devote a lot of tonnage to full jump jets they deserve to have greater mobility than they do now.

I agree that jump jet scaling and fall damage was a good start and I am up for innovative solutions that give us back jump jet fun without bringing back pop tarting.

This seems like a pretty good idea, as long as shake is restricted to the reticle and cockpit shake is not brought back.

However care needs to be taken not to gimp lights who are running and gunning. They have already traded weapon tonnage for mobility by virtue of selecting a light mech. In addition they historically never contributed to the pop tart problem so should not be penalised now.

How about we take your suggestion and modify it by linking the penalty to weight class?

Jump jet shake is increased by the following (time subject to adjustment):

Light mechs: No adjustment.
Medium mechs: 0.25 seconds
Heavy mehcs: 0.5 seconds
Assault mechs: 0.75 seconds

However, exactly as you suggested mechs who commit high tonnage to packing jets get their mobility back...

If necessary jump jet scaling can be tweaked to be even more aggressive, so that sky soaring is restricted only to those prepared to spend high tonnage.

Also I have been off the forums for a while, I know that jump turning could not be linked to jump jet scaling due to some back end bug. Was this eve fixed and introduced? If not I think this would also be a good thing to throw into the mix...

Yup. Even though I think a fair number of people were full of crap about the cockpit shake/motion sickness, some likely were legit, and the reticle shake seems a nice compromise. HAven't really seen many posts about it since that change.

#19 FupDup

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:19 AM

View PostPappySmurf, on 01 March 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

I hope they go back to pre JJ nerf times when the jumpjets were fun to use and a viable asset. The players whining about pop-snipers was like 1% of the community and there also were PGI,S closest crony's that they drop with sad pathetic excuse to nerf all the jump jets in the first place.

I'm pretty sure more than 1% of the community complained about the original poptarts.

Of course, PGI did swing the pendulum too far in the opposite direction via sledgehammer nerfs, but that doesn't mean that the old toaster pastries were good for the game (they were kinda the "One True Path" until the sledgehammer nerfs).

#20 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:20 AM

View PostPappySmurf, on 01 March 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

I hope they go back to pre JJ nerf times when the jumpjets were fun to use and a viable asset. The players whining about pop-snipers was like 1% of the community and there also were PGI,S closest crony's that they drop with sad pathetic excuse to nerf all the jump jets in the first place.

Yup, because I work for PGI. And because 99% of the population enjoyed Static Poptart Battles every match for a year and a half.





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