434 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Fate 6, on 01 March 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

Not to mention we actually have a lot of info on the Executioner. It appears to have meh hitboxes, but we have the Atlas to compare to and the Atlas is decently survivable. In terms of heat we have a lot of Clan mechs like the Nova/Timber to compare various builds like LAZORs and Gaussvomit to, respectively. We know what current JJs are like, and while they suck, we do have the DWF-S for a general comparison (and they are still useful for getting around terrain). The ONLY info we don't have is how MASC will be implemented.

Bishop, if you don't like the mech don't get it, but we do have a large amount of information to make a decision on.

Indeed. And we have the archetypes of other assaults to further extrapolate movement and jumping on, the same way you just did hitboxes.

Thanks for confirming my point!
And don't worry, I don't think I will be getting it! My clan acct has enough dust collectors. When and if they make changes (heck maybe with the Clan quirk pass?), or if they pull a King Crab and make some totally headscratching buffs when it's released, then I'll just have to grind them.

[FupDup]

On the bright side, it will almost certainly still beat Mr Gargles in terms of effectiveness...for what that's worth.

[Bishop Steiner]

MavRCK, on 01 March 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

They had nerfed SRM dmg from 2.5 to 2.25 --- messed up the hitreg for 1.5 years of SRMs -- added ghost heat to SRM4-6s in groups of 6.. so when mechs like the ddc or splatcat did get up close to a poptart, they didn't do enough dmg...

Plus, charge mechanic to gauss meant it was iffy for brawling... so people had to use ac10s or ac20s... but then AC heat plus 2 LL heat and / or heat from pulse lasers - medium lasers plus SRMs (which didnt do anything) meant you over-heated too...

Series of terrible balancing and game mechanic decision.. cough paul... lead to a long time of 1.5 years of frustration and stagnation...

Now our beloved Victors and Highlanders, which have been known to jump jet, are hover craft... Joy balancing.. cough paul..

all good points which is why I think JJs and such need to be experimented with in the test server. But even with those issues, the other factor was simple risk vs reward. Before, for 1 jj, you could minimally expose a tiny fragment of your mech for a split second and fire, whereas those Atlases and such were usually also too slow to use cover to try to close and be good enough condition on the slim chance their weapons did hit hard.

I think you are right that a lot of things that have changed would skew the balance more toward equal, but anything that opened up the ease of poptarting again, I do worry will still lean toward that tactic dominating.... and that was a long boring year and half, ya know?

FupDup, on 01 March 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

On the bright side, it will almost certainly still beat Mr Gargles in terms of effectiveness...for what that's worth.

That is true.... though eating up 15 tons more of my dropdeck.

[Fate 6]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

Valid counterpoint. As has been stated numerous times, I believe extending the shake into the down drop, but not throughout the entirety of it, give a happy medium.... and one that would obviate a lot of the nerfs. Because it still gives a jump sniper a shot window, but it does require an investment, and has a higher risk to reward ratio than during the height of Poptart mania. That said, I can still poptart with "simulated" reticle shake extended, as it's pretty easy to time and see if you could do it with an extra .5 to 1 second of thrust added.

I do think your idea could work too, though I am worried it would be easier to exploit, and PGis usual reaction/overreaction speed makes me leery of opening up the old Meta again, potentially.

But I certainly do not agree with the folks who want to lock out all weapons fire while jumping. Poptarting IS a valid tactic, and important even for some chassis to really shine. Locking out weapons fire entirely directly nerfs the Summoner (more) and Vindicator, which are the only two really good Jump Snipe chassis, IMO, atm. (others can do it, but these two still do it rather well). It would make my VND-1R rather sad, lol.

Big thing is a number of mechs, particularly assaults are currently pre-nerfed, because of the current state of JJs. And seeing them more useful for in and out brawling, etc would be nice too. Anyone who claims the VTR, for instance is anywhere near as effective as it was before (not just talking potarting, but all roles) I think is delusional, ya know? And the HGN is just painful atm.

Sure would like to see that change.

Problem with your idea is twofold:
First, mechs that simply cannot jump high, like assaults, would not be able to accurately shoot while jumping ever (unless PGI, for some reason, makes a 90+ ton mech with 3JJs able to jump 30+ meters upwards which opens up a whole new can of worms). The window of time that you are exposed, at least with current JJ lift speeds, would also be enormous should you even be able to get high enough. Increasing JJ lift speed, while something I would like, also brings us back to terrifying poptart mechs because it once again reduces an enemy's window of opportunity to shoot them.

Second, shooters want to fire at the top of their arc. This is not just because of the way projectiles work and having minimum motion to line up a better shot. Hitting a target while falling is extremely hard because HSR sometimes simply does not correctly work. This is not just for projectile weapons either, as I've been noticing much to my dismay while using a laser-based Enforcer. Fixing HSR is a bit of a pipe dream in this case and something that should be fixed on its own rather in conjunction with JJ balances.

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

Yes, word. That's a respectable post from you, particularly your attitude.

Cept the part where you called the Summoner a "really good jump sniper", seriously what the **** are you smoking. I want some. Lots.

still jumps decently (though that is by current standards) and can high mount a Gauss in the torso, with an ER PPC in the same side arm for sword and board. It ain't up there with the old DS, but it's a solid option for what we have now, even if the tactic itself is much devalued. And that's one of it's only real uses.

I do personally prefer my VND-1R with dual ppc RA for the role, though.

[Fate 6]

Mcgral18, on 01 March 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

Pretty obvious he meant Mr Gargles.

He was too busy foaming at the mouth to realize he made that mistake though

[Soy]

1 Gauss isn't enough to tart with bro, hate to break it to you.

PS - Dragon Slayer was a piece of garbage in pastry heyday.

PPS - Not that I disagree about shoulder Gauss build on Sum, just sayin... it's not a legit "really good" tart. No.

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 07:38 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 01 March 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

Pretty obvious he meant Mr Gargles.

I love my Gargles. It's a sad relationship. Everyone is too cheeky about it (the Invasion variant). I am sad.

[Bishop Steiner]

Fate 6, on 01 March 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

Problem with your idea is twofold:
First, mechs that simply cannot jump high, like assaults, would not be able to accurately shoot while jumping ever (unless PGI, for some reason, makes a 90+ ton mech with 3JJs able to jump 30+ meters upwards which opens up a whole new can of worms). The window of time that you are exposed, at least with current JJ lift speeds, would also be enormous should you even be able to get high enough. Increasing JJ lift speed, while something I would like, also brings us back to terrifying poptart mechs because it once again reduces an enemy's window of opportunity to shoot them.

Second, shooters want to fire at the top of their arc. This is not just because of the way projectiles work and having minimum motion to line up a better shot. Hitting a target while falling is extremely hard because HSR sometimes simply does not correctly work. This is not just for projectile weapons either, as I've been noticing much to my dismay while using a laser-based Enforcer. Fixing HSR is a bit of a pipe dream in this case and something that should be fixed on its own rather in conjunction with JJ balances.

And that is where we disagree.

With previous jj speed, previously you had limited exposure because you only had to peek to shoot. With extended reticle shake, you have to wait until partially into your drop. Not when people want to shoot, but that is a matter of choice, not capability. Yes, with hover jets, you are over exposed. With old speed JJs? You are simply exposed. More risk that before, but not as much risk as with current speeds. (especially when some of the better jumpers have low mounted weapons).

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

1 Gauss isn't enough to tart with bro, hate to break it to you.

PS - Dragon Slayer was a piece of garbage in pastry heyday.

which is oddly why every comp team was running them.......I guess you missed that on your sabbatical? (Such as the LORDs vs SJR final with mostly DS and Embers?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 March 2015 - 07:40 PM.

[Fate 6]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

still jumps decently (though that is by current standards) and can high mount a Gauss in the torso, with an ER PPC in the same side arm for sword and board. It ain't up there with the old DS, but it's a solid option for what we have now, even if the tactic itself is much devalued. And that's one of it's only real uses.

I do personally prefer my VND-1R with dual ppc RA for the role, though.

Ehhh, unfortunately I think the difference in projectile speeds of the ERPPC and Gauss make jump sniping with them effectively pointless right now. ERPPC+AC5 for IS mechs can work, but that leads back to our poor Victor/Highlander issues as they are the mechs with the tonnage for those loadouts.

[Soy]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

which is oddly why every comp team was running them.......I guess you missed that on your sabbatical? (Such as the LORDs vs SJR final with mostly DS and Embers?

Duh, that occurred because of my sabbatical! You take your eye of people for one moment and that happens... xD

I'll whip newbs into shape soon when I'm done sculpting new meta off a fresh block.

ps - never fought a Dragon Slayer in my 3D back in the day that didn't get wrecked, so

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 07:47 PM.

[Fate 6]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

And that is where we disagree.

With previous jj speed, previously you had limited exposure because you only had to peek to shoot. With extended reticle shake, you have to wait until partially into your drop. Not when people want to shoot, but that is a matter of choice, not capability. Yes, with hover jets, you are over exposed. With old speed JJs? You are simply exposed. More risk that before, but not as much risk as with current speeds. (especially when some of the better jumpers have low mounted weapons).

I guess what I'm saying is, to have a system like the one you propose, we have to increase our momentum given by JJs. Basically, when you stop jump jetting you continue on your upward arc as opposed to what we've traditionally had which is instantly falling back to the ground. With this momentum-driven system I would envision something like a very tiny window at the top of your arc where you are not experiencing reticle shake (your mech is moving less) and having shake everywhere else, even during the fall. This way poptarting is a very conscious act, and JJ mobility is also obtained in the process.

EDIT: It also means something like feathering your JJs would have more than just a hitbox spam effect. Your mech would actually lift off the ground which would move your aim and slow your movespeed upon hitting the ground again (because right now we lose speed when we actually lift off and land). Sideways JJ movement is an entirely new topic.
EDIT2: Although, sideways movement with JJs could be a direct function of your throttle speed at the time of liftoff, so that a motionless mech with max throttle speed setting could move forward with JJs with the same sort of momentum system I described above.

Edited by Fate 6, 01 March 2015 - 07:50 PM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

That is true.... though eating up 15 tons more of my dropdeck.

I stick to the scrub tier ghetto for my robo-grinding sessions, so tonnage limits aren't an issue for me.

I'm trying to imagine it with something like 4-5 ERML + 2 UAC/5...like a fat non-ECM version of my Loki build.

Edited by FupDup, 01 March 2015 - 07:52 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Protip: PGI doesn't care about making bad mechs good. They just want you to buy them.

[FupDup]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

wave 3 looks like a relatively equal value to the previous waves, going by objectivity of the mech stats on paper... also relatively equal if you just take a stab in the dark based on current meta and how these mechs might function in MWO...

Arctic Cheetah: Best Clan light in the game, contender for best overall light

Shadow Cat: Decent medium, will beat Wave 2 and maybe the Nova but certainly not the Crow

Cauldron-Born: 65 tonner with Mad Cat firepower and a crapton of high-mounted hardpoints, it'll be a sexy beast of a robot, second best or maybe third best heavy in the game easily

Gladiator: Will beat the Gargles, but certainly not the Whale, dunno how it will compare to the Warhawk

Edited by FupDup, 01 March 2015 - 07:57 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Fate 6, on 01 March 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

I guess what I'm saying is, to have a system like the one you propose, we have to increase our momentum given by JJs. Basically, when you stop jump jetting you continue on your upward arc as opposed to what we've traditionally had which is instantly falling back to the ground. With this momentum-driven system I would envision something like a very tiny window at the top of your arc where you are not experiencing reticle shake (your mech is moving less) and having shake everywhere else, even during the fall. This way poptarting is a very conscious act, and JJ mobility is also obtained in the process.

EDIT: It also means something like feathering your JJs would have more than just a hitbox spam effect. Your mech would actually lift off the ground which would move your aim and slow your movespeed upon hitting the ground again (because right now we lose speed when we actually lift off and land). Sideways JJ movement is an entirely new topic.
EDIT2: Although, sideways movement with JJs could be a direct function of your throttle speed at the time of liftoff, so that a motionless mech with max throttle speed setting could move forward with JJs with the same sort of momentum system I described above.

That's actually would be a fine counter method. I'm not so set to having to be able to shoot at the top of the arc, but that's me. The momentum would be great, with either method, whether it's a small window at top followed by buffet shake on the way down, or a small window one gets on the way down.

I think it's more semantics and preference at that point to a degree, but would make for a more workable, less exploitable system either way, and one that really was more skill demanding, since the old way was not terribly difficult a tactic, hence it prevalence.

Or for a tl;dr: Yeah, I'd be down with that approach, also. Think it would be better than what we have now.

[Soy]

FupDup, on 01 March 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

Arctic Cheetah: Best Clan light in the game, contender for best overall light

Shadow Cat: Decent medium, will beat Wave 2 and maybe the Nova but certainly not the Crow

Cauldron-Born: 65 tonner with Mad Cat firepower and a crapton of high-mounted hardpoints, it'll be a sexy beast of a robot, second best or maybe third best heavy in the game easily

Gladiator: Will beat the Gargles, but certainly not the Whale, dunno how it will compare to the Warhawk

Yup, pretty much... I was being coy, easier on Bishop's psyche.

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 08:03 PM.

[Fate 6]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

That's actually would be a fine counter method. I'm not so set to having to be able to shoot at the top of the arc, but that's me. The momentum would be great, with either method, whether it's a small window at top followed by buffet shake on the way down, or a small window one gets on the way down.

I think it's more semantics and preference at that point to a degree, but would make for a more workable, less exploitable system either way, and one that really was more skill demanding, since the old way was not terribly difficult a tactic, hence it prevalence.

Or for a tl;dr: Yeah, I'd be down with that approach, also. Think it would be better than what we have now.

From a PGI coding standpoint, might be easier to make it so everything after the apex was non-shake while everything including the momentum upwards was shaking.

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

Duh, that occurred because of my sabbatical! You take your eye of people for one moment and that happens... xD

I'll whip newbs into shape soon when I'm done sculpting new meta off a fresh block.

ps - never fought a Dragon Slayer in my 3D back in the day that didn't get wrecked, so

Yeah, whilst you were gone, weapon nerfs happened (First the charge on gauss, which suddenly every comp declared it unusable.... yet oddly here they are using it, then ac20 and ac10 projectile speeds.... etc.), suddenly my old DS build went from being laughed at by the Comps to being run by all the comps. 2 AC5/2 PPC, sword and board DS....run so extensively that basicly it is what finally forced PGI to step up...and as usual....Paul may have been a tad...overzealous.

Basically it got to the point that 25-30 pt alpha was your standard poptart weaponry. Hence where quite a few Clanners are sword and boarding the Summoner. Not my choice, I prefer to brawl and flank. Just reporting the "news" not making it.

Fate 6, on 01 March 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

From a PGI coding standpoint, might be easier to make it so everything after the apex was non-shake while everything including the momentum upwards was shaking.

True, readily admit that a programmer I ain't. And as said, would be okay with that approach also. Because it keeps poptarting viable, but returns the old mobility back to a lot of jumpers, allowing them to be more effective as brawlers and flankers again. And the IS still needs that to balance against the Clan big 3. Plus they would be able to poptart again, but it would still be more difficult....and thus less "the" meta.

[Soy]

I know about Gauss change; I think that's cuz the bubble shock of the changes ****** mucked with a lot of player's style, so they went to DS to keep the 2 PPCs up in shoulder but gain a bit more armor and just gave up on the Gauss in the heat of the moment until they were able to adjust to it on their own time.

However, by the end of that bubble in meta subsided from shock to comfort, a lot of these guys playstyles had stratified, in terms of what players were specializing into, and thus the prevalence of headshotable tart alphas was pretty much gone with the wind by that point. But they still clinged to the tarting form of positioning and mobility (like me w/ Novas since returning, it's not same as snipe tarting, it's ninja tarting).

As far as Summoners, I have yet to see anyone even sniffing at a 'try' build of any sort since returning.

PS - i like how striking out asterisks makes them look underlined; nice.

PPS - underlined the asterisks now check out that sick double line. That's next level ascii ****.

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 08:19 PM.