434 replies to this topic

[FearNotDeath]

I caved because the concept art looked sexy. Hopefully it's face doesn't get messed up like the Gargoyles.

[Hades Trooper]

Alexandrix, on 01 March 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

You can thank the poptarts.
Well,that and pgi's asinine way of "balancing" things.
reticle shake should persist thru out the jump.jj'ing in a mech is supposed to be a sudden and violent affair.not this lightly hovering thru the air on a summer breeze garbage.

Make reticle shake persist thru the jump,and make jump jets actual jump jets,not hover jets.make them slam you back in your seat and quickly propel your mech up/forward.

There,no poptarting AND useful jj's.

love the idea but then u got the people who will whinge that they get motion sickness,

i know i had someone complain when the screen shake was 1st introduced

[Mechteric]

The only way to make Jump Jets good and fun is to make them similar to how they are in Mechwarrior Living Legends. The jet fast and jet high, but build up quite a bit of heat and because they jet you so fast it means to jump snipe you have to expose yourself in the air for a long time. On the plus side they are amazing for brawling and getting around, they are just so much fun!

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 02 March 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

As an alternative idea, shooting while in the air could have a subtle cone of fire, so it's not that it is inaccurate in terms of hitting targets, but you won't get pinpoint convergence when jumpsniping.

So in essence, the shake while thrusting would be the same as now, and the stabilisation of the reticule when letting go would be almost the same, but with a very subtle shake remaining to represent a slight CoF that would be there whenever airborne. Jumpsniping at close ranges would still be reasonably pinpoint, but at 300+ meters you might start hitting different components with your AC and PPC shots.

Combine that with significantly increased JJ thrust and slightly prolonged midair inertia so that a jumpsnipe would give reasonable exposure for return fire, and I believe we might have a good balance.

I'd be all for that, if the mere mention of CoF didn't give the Acolytes of the Church of Skill such fits. Or actually, maybe even a better reason TO be for it. Sadly Rss treats that term like it carries Ebola, too. Despite the fact pretty much every FPS uses one, and that it actually takes MORE skill to compensate than to mash apixel, currently.

CapperDeluxe, on 02 March 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

The only way to make Jump Jets good and fun is to make them similar to how they are in Mechwarrior Living Legends. The jet fast and jet high, but build up quite a bit of heat and because they jet you so fast it means to jump snipe you have to expose yourself in the air for a long time. On the plus side they are amazing for brawling and getting around, they are just so much fun!

I think "the only way" might be a little hyperbolistic.... which means it fits right in on this thread!

[Mechteric]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

I think "the only way" might be a little hyperbolistic.... which means it fits right in on this thread!

I did say "similar to" not "exactly like". So I stand by "the only way" because jets are terrible now and they were also terrible before when they were more poptarter friendly like Mechwarrior 4.

[mekabuser]

CapperDeluxe, on 02 March 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

The only way to make Jump Jets good and fun is to make them similar to how they are in Mechwarrior Living Legends. The jet fast and jet high, but build up quite a bit of heat and because they jet you so fast it means to jump snipe you have to expose yourself in the air for a long time. On the plus side they are amazing for brawling and getting around, they are just so much fun!

its shocking how much better mwll still is compared to this.....supposedly cryengine. "mech" game. It was depressing realizing that there isnt even audio for arm movement in mwo still. Mwll mech death animations are still light years ahead of mwo . sigh. its an endless list.
mwo is a perfect example of the fact that human advancement is not a given. we are all smack dab in the middle of the dark ages with this minimally viable product.
now how do i crouch again?

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 01 March 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

On the bright side, it will almost certainly still beat Mr Gargles in terms of effectiveness...for what that's worth.

I'm not even sure how that is a question.

95 ton mech armor
25 tons of clan firepower is easily worth 28 to 30 tons of IS firepower (or more, depending).
It has 6 DHS already built in.
71kph before MASC with speed tweak.
It has a lot of jump jets, which even weak will still be useful for a 95T assault mech.
It has some solid hardpoint options available, including torso mounted weapons and potential for asymmetric builds.


Barring some hitbox disaster, or deliberately nerfed torso twist speed/yaw - I think this mech will be at the very worst T2.

DaZur, on 02 March 2015 - 04:33 AM, said:

The problem as I see it is the nerf contrasts against lore and cannon for certain mechs (Highlander) and that in and of itself should be enough to give pause.

IMHO... I see no reason PGI cannot add jump-jets into the quirk system and adjust individual mechs without affecting the full stable.

I think the Highlander was way over-nerfed but it would be a truly bizarre turn of events if the devs specifically turned around and gave JJ quirks to one of the primary mechs that caused the devs to nerf JJs in the first place.

JJs overall need to be reviewed and revamped.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 March 2015 - 06:59 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Summon3r, on 01 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

great post Bishop. I couldnt agree more on ever point u have made, and would like to highlight the fact of just how overnerfed JJ's are especially on mechs that are supposed to be uber mobile (summoner) and the absolutely asinine fact that the 100ton KGC has a smaller movement type then the GAR which is supposed to be an uber mobile lightly armed assault... atleast u got the lightly armed part right.

all these facts and pgi's history does not bode well for the EXC which traditionally should be an exceptionally mobile killing machine

The same holds true for the jump jets. Just look at the Victor and you will know what your Executioner will be like. The JJs are supposed to give a mech outstanding maneuverability - that's why they are so costly. In MWO: you can hover a bit over pebble and cushion some falls. That's it.The saving grace could be MASC and melee attacks...to bad that the latter isn't even implemented.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 02 March 2015 - 07:15 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 02 March 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

I'm not even sure how that is a question.

95 ton mech armor
25 tons of clan firepower is easily worth 28 to 30 tons of IS firepower (or more, depending).
It has 6 DHS already built in.
71kph before MASC with speed tweak.
It has a lot of jump jets, which even weak will still be useful for a 95T assault mech.
It has some solid hardpoint options available, including torso mounted weapons and potential for asymmetric builds.


Barring some hitbox disaster, or deliberately nerfed torso twist speed/yaw - I think this mech will be at the very worst T2.






I think the Highlander was way over-nerfed but it would be a truly bizarre turn of events if the devs specifically turned around and gave JJ quirks to one of the primary mechs that caused the devs to nerf JJs in the first place.

JJs overall need to be reviewed and revamped.

Tier 2? Unless the JJs are near Summoner grade, instead of the more likely Highlander grade?

Heavy Metal is 5 tons Lighter, has 10 tons of JJs and can't jump out of it's own shadow. 71 kph sounds good, until it hits an incline.... then tell me how well the 15 ton lighter, 18 kph faster Gargoyle does again?

BTW, if they give the Gladiator a Large profile instead of huge (good for the Glad), I'm gonna be doubly pissed at how intentionally screwed the Gargle is.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 March 2015 - 07:37 AM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

Tier 2

Yes, T2.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

Heavy Metal is 5 tons Lighter, has 10 tons of JJs and can't jump out of it's own shadow. 71 kph sounds good, until it hits an incline.... then tell me how well the 15 ton lighter, 13 kph faster Gargoyle does again?

The Gargoyle doesn't have JJs to assist over bad terrain.

I can get around right now in a Banshee with a 350 engine, and another with a 325 engine.

Adding JJs is just going to make that easier.


I think you are basing on your opinion of what you want the mech to be as opposed to what the mech will actually capable of.


You are also cherry picking singular aspects of these mechs, and not looking at all of the options (which I already laid out, feel free to read it).


What makes a mech good is a combination of factors, and the overall combination of factors for the Executioner looks good. The fact that it can't fly around with JJs will be minimal - those JJs will add ability to spread damage and clear bad terrain.



You personally want JJs to be something else, that's fine. You are letting that cloud your analysis though.



The DWF-S has granted the DWF JJs, they might not be the JJs you want them to be - but I assure you that once the DWF-S pods are more easily accessible we will see most DWFs take at least 1 JJ - because it's extremely useful.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

BTW, if they give the Gladiator a Large profile instead of huge (good for the Glad), I'm gonna be doubly pissed at how intentionally screwed the Gargle is.

I would be shocked if they did this.

I think we need to pester Russ again about the Gargoyle, I've sent 3 PMs and started 3 twitter conversations and that hasn't gotten it done yet.

He's acknowledged it and said he would get it fixed, but I think he keeps forgetting.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 02 March 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

Yes, T2.





The Gargoyle doesn't have JJs to assist over bad terrain.

I can get around right now in a Banshee with a 350 engine, and another with a 325 engine.

Adding JJs is just going to make that easier.


I think you are basing on your opinion of what you want the mech to be as opposed to what the mech will actually capable of.


You are also cherry picking singular aspects of these mechs, and not looking at all of the options (which I already laid out, feel free to read it).


What makes a mech good is a combination of factors, and the overall combination of factors for the Executioner looks good. The fact that it can't fly around with JJs will be minimal - those JJs will add ability to spread damage and clear bad terrain.



You personally want JJs to be something else, that's fine. You are letting that cloud your analysis though.



The DWF-S has granted the DWF JJs, they might not be the JJs you want them to be - but I assure you that once the DWF-S pods are more easily accessible we will see most DWFs take at least 1 JJ - because it's extremely useful.







I would be shocked if they did this.

I think we need to pester Russ again about the Gargoyle, I've sent 3 PMs and started 3 twitter conversations and that hasn't gotten it done yet.

He's acknowledged it and said he would get it fixed, but I think he keeps forgetting.

Huh funny...I could say the same thing...as I laid out the combinations of factors that will in all likelihood keep the Glad mediocre.

Because to be bluntly honest, we are BOTH cherry picking details. We are simply drawing different conclusions.

As for Russ forgetting..... I would like to think that is it. But I'm not holding my breath at this point. And yes, I am looking at what I want it to be. A mech with 8 tons sacrificed to locked JJs should dang well get more use out of them than skipping pebbles to compensate for its inability to walk up a grade. And the HGN can't even do that. With 10 tons of JJs. Speed will help, but one of the best tactics for beating BNC is catching them (or any fatty) midway up an incline. HGN level JJs aren't that big a help. And yes I keep coming back to that because that is the number one concern/criticism I have. It will simply be exacerbated by the fact it should be a HUGE mech. And looking at the art, I'm not seeing the Glad having near the favorable hitboxes the BNC has.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 02 March 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

I would be shocked if they did this.

I think we need to pester Russ again about the Gargoyle, I've sent 3 PMs and started 3 twitter conversations and that hasn't gotten it done yet.

He's acknowledged it and said he would get it fixed, but I think he keeps forgetting.

The tinfoil hat in me thinks it's because of normalizing all the things.

Basically, with each of movement classes, you have an invisible collision "capsule" around the mech. The higher the movement class, the bigger the capsule. Because of capsules having different sizes, this led to movement types being assigned by the basis of a mech's physical model size.

As a sad example, mechs like the Cataphract and Jagermech were once considered Medium, the Catapult was once Huge (I think), and the Stalker was Large. This is also why the King Crab is Large (because it's a small assault). I think that one of the medium mechs was classified as Large, I can't remember. The Gargles is about the same physical size as an Atlas, so they made it have the same climbing ability as one (Huge).

They don't assign movement archetypes based on mech roles or specifications, which I think is wrong. Using model size is arbitrary and tends to screw over mechs that are horribly scaled (see above) and some few mechs scaled "too well" actually benefit. For example, the Jenner is classified as Tiny even though all of the other 35 tonners and the Cute Fox are Small, and it gets to be Tiny because it's so short.

In the Gargles' case, carrying the biggest possible engine in the construction system and being relatively undergunned indicates that its role is supposed to be an abnormally maneuverable assault. Being the same model size as an Atlas should NOT be used to make it climb slopes the same as an Atlas, it should be better at climbing than the Fatlas due to not having the guns or armor of one.

Edited by FupDup, 02 March 2015 - 08:10 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop, totally agree...I'm just happy they didn't make the Cauldron Born the $120 pack instead. Saved myself $30.

[Ridir Semii]

MoonUnitBeta, on 01 March 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

They took away the super glowy effect!

you can still get that glow, just apply polygon and all the Jade falcon lime (or insert eye gouging ugly color of your choice instead)

on topic, OP, when your first post starts out with things like, "I spend lots of money" I doubt you will get overly much support for your cause, as most will see it as you trying to use money to change how things are done... That is how biased and corrupted governments operate...

Now, to explain something, I have Gargoyles and I have the ENTIRE line of highlanders mastered; I have not encountered any movement issues with either that doesn't occur (in the right place and time) with ANY given mech. Not to say it needs or doesn't need fixing, nor that I agree or disagree with any of you... just that my experience has obviously not been the same as yours, which means......

Everyone has a differing opinion on what may or may not be broken, the Mist Lynx was a prime example of that, it was written off before release but soon after people found that they are a viable and quite productive mech... now it will be tossed away because of the cheetah, solely based on words on a forum before the mech has even been released...

I spend enough money on this game myself to have anyone who basically calls themselves out as a wallet warrior just has a need to overly glorify themselves treating the community like inferiors.... Bishop, perhaps next time, leaving your immense cash flow out of the discussion and maybe you won't take the heat from other players for it

Edited by Uminix, 02 March 2015 - 08:15 AM.

[Shalune]

Agreed. We need changes so that assault mechs properly benefit from big engines and JJ.

I am looking forward to the Executioner though. The Dire Wolf is only able to make use of its absurd weapon loadout because it can boat ballistics. Any clan mech that can't or doesn't boat ballistics hits a plateau where having additional tonnage for weapons makes no difference because you hit a heat or crit slot wall.

[Lostdragon]

I support you, OP. JJ currently are not fun and the locked JJ on many clan mechs hurt them badly. The JJ system needs to be completely reworked, IMO. I want to see JJ like Mechwarrior LL had with thrust vectoring and, you know, actual jumping.

[HARDKOR]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

They don't assign movement archetypes based on mech roles or specifications, which I think is wrong. Using model size is arbitrary and tends to screw over mechs that are horribly scaled (see above) and some few mechs scaled "too well" actually benefit. For example, the Jenner is classified as Tiny even though all of the other 35 tonners and the Cute Fox are Small, and it gets to be Tiny because it's so short.

Makes sense to me. High center of gravity would make climbing hills difficult. Crabs are short and flat and gargs are tall and top heavy. Executioner will be tall and top heavy.

It will be a fine mech, due to 13 energy hardpoints, but only for the early birds.

I'll only get the first three mechs due to not needing a 95 tonner for CW. If it was an 80 or 85 tonner, I'd probably get it.

[Mystere]

MERC Mournblade, on 02 March 2015 - 01:12 AM, said:

This was disastrously illustrated during the poptarting meta, which pertains to exploitation addiction common to videogames.

In my view, poptarts were an "exploit" only to those unable to deal with them, either via a counter or by accepting that some people are just better than they are.

[AlmightyAeng]

Mystere, on 02 March 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

In my view, poptarts were an "exploit" only to those unable to deal with them, either via a counter or by accepting that some people are just better than they are.

Mystere, c'mon man. We both know the defition of "exploit" is "anything that killed me last game." Psssht.

[Bishop Steiner]

Uminix, on 02 March 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

post flying totally over head

wow, some one totally missed the intentional irony of said post..........

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 March 2015 - 08:42 AM.