434 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Personally i do not want to go trough the jumpsniping hell anymore.. The JJ nerfs were reasonable, but made in the wrong way. They should be entirely redone. They should be actual "jump" jets like in MW:LL, which i think got the best interpretation of JJs in any MW game togheter with MW4.

Anyway, i never understood why they gave the HUGE moviment profile to the Gargoyle, that should ABSOLUTELY change. I think Russ said it was because of the size, but i think the Gargoyle would have an easier time, with its humanoid legs, climbing a steep hill than a King Crab...

[Brody319]

Here are my Gargoyle Stats if anyone is curious.




Is it good? no probably not.
but it works with me. just have the personality and style that works with it I guess.

[Bishop Steiner]

Brody319, on 02 March 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Here are my Gargoyle Stats if anyone is curious.




Is it good? no probably not.
but it works with me. just have the personality and style that works with it I guess.

Well, not to sound like a dbag (or anymore than usual, lol) but.... at sub 50 matches, to have that low a KDr in them? That's not a sign of "good". Most of my decent mechs are 5 to 1 or better that early on, before the numbers start skewing down. I don't consider a mech "good" per se, unless it's in the 2to1 KDr or above brackett. Mind you, there are lots of mechs like the PNT, I am lower in. Because I flat suck at lights, so a positive KDr is perfectly acceptable... but I don't consider it good.

Your avg damage on the Prime is respectable. Any mech you can maintain near 400 dmg ain't all bad. Curious where your numbers will sit at 50 matches, 100, etc.

[Brody319]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

Well, not to sound like a dbag (or anymore than usual, lol) but.... at sub 50 matches, to have that low a KDr in them? That's not a sign of "good". Most of my decent mechs are 5 to 1 or better that early on, before the numbers start skewing down. I don't consider a mech "good" per se, unless it's in the 2to1 KDr or above brackett. Mind you, there are lots of mechs like the PNT, I am lower in. Because I flat suck at lights, so a positive KDr is perfectly acceptable... but I don't consider it good.

Your avg damage on the Prime is respectable. Any mech you can maintain near 400 dmg ain't all bad. Curious where your numbers will sit at 50 matches, 100, etc.

a lot of my mechs don't have a lot of matches. I think the only one that breaks 100 matches is my Timberwolf Prime.

I got College and other games to play too, can't be mechwarrioring all the time. Often times I play a chassis to Mastery and thats about it.


though I will still be playing my Gargoyles when I do get a chance to play.

Edited by Brody319, 02 March 2015 - 11:24 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 02 March 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

I haven't built up enough rage to say what I really think about the OP's terrible idea.

ah...please!

[Brody319]

My Gargoyle Prime build has always and probably will always be this unless quirks are so extreme I can't help but switch.

1 LPL, 6 SPLs

Its the build I always suggest to people when they ask about the Gargoyle.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ens, on 02 March 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

While i mostly agree with your points of view ( no matter the topic ), Bishop.....
This time i can´t, though i see your point.

But:

Despite the "Huge" Movement-Archetype of the Gargoyle, and all the Clan-Player-Whineyness ( is that even a word? ) i am here to assure you:

The Gargoyle is quite nice


Sorry for the small amount of "evidence", but games like this are quite often...
And to be perfectly honest......those screens were made, when i started out on the Gargoyle a few days ago on my clan account. It was all basic....

It just not the one-click death machine that the regular clan players are so used to


Since you´re quite known now, for being a successful "underdog-mech" lover/player, maybe this is just that one time experience, that the Gargoyle is just not you´re thing and that´s all?

I actually do OK, in it, usually running a modified Prime (dual LB5X, 2x SRM4). But the point is not bout me, or you. It's that the mech is roundly inferior to one 5 tons lighter, (which it will remain, mind you) and that it has subpar firepower and mediocre hardpoints.... and much like my Summoner, thrives on it's mobility. I do feel that the role should matter more than the model. And the Gargoyle IMO, and by it's generally lackluster performance in most hands, I feel NEEDS that mobility. It makes my Fat Face Garg cry when I see Stalkers and King Crabs racing past me on the handicap ramp.......

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

ah...please!

Unfortunately it's not you or your thread...

You know, this pent up rage from the weekend event is exceptional.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 02 March 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Unfortunately it's not you or your thread...

You know, this pent up rage from the weekend event is exceptional.

I know..and seein gyou lose it on the Slow Firestarter Thread would be....entertaining? I has popcorn.... caramel covered?

[stjobe]

Apnu, on 02 March 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. I ran the PNT-8Z last night with 4JJs. I jumped all over the place, I had falls from heights and goosing the JJs was enough to reduce my falling damage to 0. I tend to leave abut 20% of the JJ meter in the tank for the return trip to the ground. I run off cliffs on Tourmaline, Canyon, and Crimson Straits (well the garage that is) all the time to get away from fire.

How are you falling w/out being able to use your 4 JJs?

What I'm saying is that once you start falling (negative vertical speed) it is all but impossible to gain altitude again. Whereas with the 8 JJs on the 10K, you can easily do so.

Why is this important? It's to show that the thrust delivered by the JJs is too weak - or perhaps as some pointed out it's because gravity in MWO is too strong (about 3x Earth gravity).

It feels wrong to have JJs that are capable of lifting your 'mech to 30 meters or so, and to propel you about 180 meters (from a 117 kph running start, mind you) not being able to reverse a fall off a ledge.

Apnu, on 02 March 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

Oh, well then I guess I use my JJ's differently. I use them to scoot over small terrain in the way, change direction fast, power up to higher levels, and escape fire by running off cliffs and breaking the fall.

I guess he's talking about jump sniping then?

I'm not talking about jump sniping, I'm talking about how JJs to me feel anaemic and powerless - less "jump" and more "oh my gosh we'll never get this thing off the ground!".

I can't count the number of times (it's several times per match, probably) I run towards an unclimbable cliff, house, or other terrain feature and hit my jump jets to sail over it - only to smack into it halfway up and scrape my front along it for the rest of the way up. If I make it up at all, now that my forward velocity is zero or close to it.

I just keep thinking the jets are more powerful than they are, and I get a bit disappointed every time it happens.

In my dream world, jump jets would PUNCH you up and away at a roughly 45 degree angle - even from a standstill. A tap would give you a 6m by 30m jump, and holding the space bar would burn the jets for longer, extending both height and distance.

Remember, if we're going by TT rules (and we are "a BattleTech game" after all), each JJ should give you the ability to jump 6 meters high and 30 meters far, so 4 JJs should give you the ability to jump 24 meters high and 120 meters - AND land safely without taking damage.

No matter which class of 'mech, be it assault or light, that mounts 4 JJs should have that ability.

As for pop-tarting, a jumping 'mech gets an automatic +3 penalty to hit, so having reticule shake for the whole jump (not just the going up part) would be perfectly reasonable.

And that's how I'd do it. Give JJs a lot more kick, make them propel you a LOT more distance horizontally, and keep reticule shake on until both your feet are on the ground again. That would make them extremely usable for maneuvering and jump-brawling while not enabling excessive pop-tarting.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 02 March 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

As for pop-tarting, a jumping 'mech gets an automatic +3 penalty to hit, so having reticule shake for the whole jump (not just the going up part) would be perfectly reasonable.

Yeah, that or had another poster mention the dread "mild" CoF. Either way, removes the ridiculous pinpoint accuracy from 20-100 tons of titan rocket boosted brick.

[5LeafClover]

How about:

I won't be buying because..... its $120.

I don't see that more justification is needed. The default response here is NOT to buy. The vast majority of players will be grinding for these later in the year (or buying at pocket money prices). $120 is simply not a normal level of money for computer games.

It IS an "I'm a crazy obsessed mechwarrior fanboy" level.

[Bishop Steiner]

5LeafClover, on 02 March 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

How about:

I won't be buying because..... its $120.

I don't see that more justification is needed. The default response here is NOT to buy. The vast majority of players will be grinding for these later in the year (or buying at pocket money prices). $120 is simply not a normal level of money for computer games.

It IS an "I'm a crazy obsessed mechwarrior fanboy" level.

Perhaps true...sadly we ar in an era where people pay that for Ios and Android games on their bloody phones.....

[Kain Demos]

As far as JJs go am I alone in wanting them to be able to propel us horizontally as much as canon or is that considered "too much" by most of the playerbase?

Edited by Kain Thul, 02 March 2015 - 12:15 PM.

[stjobe]

Kain Thul, on 02 March 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

As far as JJs go am I alone in wanting them to be able to propel us horizontally as much as canon or is that considered "too much" by most?

I don't know about "most", but I at least agree:

stjobe, on 02 March 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

In my dream world, jump jets would PUNCH you up and away at a roughly 45 degree angle - even from a standstill. A tap would give you a 6m by 30m jump, and holding the space bar would burn the jets for longer, extending both height and distance.
...
And that's how I'd do it. Give JJs a lot more kick, make them propel you a LOT more distance horizontally, and keep reticule shake on until both your feet are on the ground again. That would make them extremely usable for maneuvering and jump-brawling while not enabling excessive pop-tarting.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 02 March 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Yes and it's clear Russ intends to change it and just keeps forgetting.


Send him tweets on twitter, he's never going to see it buried in threads like these.



EDIT: I just sent him another tweet on it.

as did I.. "It's in discussion, not sure yet". Aka, haven't even acknowledged it sucks.

[Brody319]

Russ and PGI are hesitant to do anything really with the Clans yet.

I mean a large part of the Community cries every time a Clan mech is brought up.

So if they just decide to buff the Clans without putting in a lot of thought they risk ******* up hard.

Could send balance spiraling out of control if its too extreme, or just nothing if its not enough.

I mean even some bad clan mechs have that potential to change the meta and game if they are buffed correctly.

[Apnu]

stjobe, on 02 March 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

(lots of interesting stuff)

OK I get you now. Thanks for clearing that up. Yes they feel anemic to me as well. Many times I've tried to jump up something (say from the bottom to the top level of Canyons) only to get half way there and stall out.

I think that's because MWO is half using TT rules and half doing something else. On the TT, you could jump up to your maximum walking speed. One JJ = One movement point (that is moving from one hex to another, less obstructions). So a Highlander with a 3/5 movement could jump a maximum of 3 hexes up and over, in any direction, choosing their facing when they land. Depending on the number of JJs equipped. So you could have a 3/5/1 Highlander with one JJ, weird in TT but possible. We kinda have that, but there's no way the canyons on Canyon are 4 levels high, I should be able to jump up from the lower level to the upper level in one go with 4 JJs. Doesn't happen most of the time.

The worst is when I jump and the low thrust of the JJ causes me to hit something and go straight up, scraping on the terrain as you say, and killing my momentum. That sucks, I get it.

Anyway, I think the thrust is weak because PGI wants to cut down on jump snipers, which pretty much everybody hates but the most cheesy of cheese players. I don't think they went about it right. I think they should have simply locked weapons out while jumping, claim its got something to do with keeping delicate weapon parts from being damaged (kinda like the drop protection some laptops have with old style HDDs) and been done with it. Then JJ's can have the thrust we expect, they get to be used for movement (and attack if we could do DFAs, oh how I wish we could DFA) instead of jump sniping.

So, I think, PGI needs to decide if JJs are for movement or attack (jump sniping) and engineer them for that purpose. I, personally, say JJs should be for movement alone.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

as did I.. "It's in discussion, not sure yet". Aka, haven't even acknowledged it sucks.

Gotta keep up the Twitter chatter. He stated in the last Town Hall that he prefers twitter for player communication than any other service.

[VtTimber]

My Solution:

Hardwire the max number of JJ's to any chassis that can take them. Then buff JJ's to be much more reasonable. Bam, instant balance to bringing a mech with JJ's. You have the much improved mobility (still with a reticle shake a la Bishop) but are hampered by the tonnage devoted to full heat sinks...

Do I want to be able to move around and position and maneuver (and even shoot from air sometimes) much better? Thats great, it means I'll be bringing less of something, engine,weapons,armor... whatever.

Instant balance.

[Augustus Martelus II]

Highlander Jumping....

Saturn V have a lot more fuel.

Edited by Augustus Martelus II, 02 March 2015 - 12:33 PM.