132 replies to this topic

[HlynkaCG]

dario03, on 02 March 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

I'm not really seeing the issue. increase the TTK a Jenner to a better than CT on legs level while letting it kill other mechs faster seems like a good thing for TTK.

Not if you're trying to keep TTK from dipping too low, which the devs have stated that they are. Remember that higher DPS = lower TTK.

[Cyborne Elemental]

XL-240/245 is a reasonable cap

Leaves the FS at 122.2-124.7 kph top speed, which is still more than enough for a light with that much firepower.

And while 8 SPL is a ridiculous build for what it does up close, its still not the biggest problem.

Problem is hitreg, and guys who know how to exploit the pumpjets.

Also... just because 6 guys at the very top apparently have no issues hitting lights (since they never miss), doesn't mean that the thousands of other players who do have issues landing their shots even when their aim is dead on are somehow null and void from the discussion.

[dario03]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Not if you're trying to keep TTK from dipping too low, which the devs have stated that they are. Remember that higher DPS = lower TTK.

Exactly, raise the TTK of mechs that die quick (CT on legs), and raise the damage of mechs that don't kill as fast. The FS9-H replaced the JR7-F as the 6ml light because it isn't a CT on legs and got much better quirks. Before quirks the high mount points was enough to risk the CT on legs over the Firestarter. But since quirks the FS9 got a bunch of other advantages. Giving the Jenner some small CT buffs and medium laser buffs would put them closer to balance while still not having any where near the fire power and armor of some bigger mechs. Give the Jenner enough CT buffs and you wouldn't even need to give it as much medium laser buffs as the FS9-H.

Edited by dario03, 02 March 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[HlynkaCG]

dario03, on 02 March 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

...

Right but we can't raise the Jenner's firepower that much without getting back to the place where we were in closed beta where a Jenner with 4 ML and 2 SRM 4 could effectively one or two-shot anything in the game smaller than an atlas. In short, if you buff the Jenner's firepower to the point where it's massive CT stops being an issue, you introduce a new set of problems.

ETA:
A better solution would be to give the Jenner a moderate armor upgrade and make it fast enough to escape from anything that out-guns it unfortunately that's not an option because we can't make the Jenner much faster without breaking hit-reg and the Firestarter is already fast enough to keep up.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 02 March 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[dario03]

By how much? I never gave exact numbers and said small buffs, actually for medium lasers I even said less than the H which doesn't have that big of quirks as it is. This game has changed a lot since closed beta, a Jenner's alpha of 4ml,2srm4 or 6ml is nothing compared to other mechs in the game.

[Deathlike]

Let's break this down... because apparently it has to be done so you don't sound more foolish than you do now.

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Before you guys all reach for your flamers and pitch forks please hear me out...

Too late.

Quote

I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that the Firestarter is the best IS light mech by a wide margin. In fact, it is one of the the best mechs in the game period really second only to the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow in all-around combat effectiveness. It has excellent hit-boxes, excellent hard-points, generous quirks, and can keep up with (if not flat out-run) every mech in the game excluding the spider.

It's not as wide as you would think. The only reason why the Jenner isn't as appealing these days are STRICTLY QUIRKS.

Let's just look at the quirks as currently constituted (since you didn't even bother to reach my comparisons in the first place.

Jenner-K vs Firestarter-H

For the sake of argument... let's ignore the missile hardpoint... since it's just not as useful as the Jenner-D. (Using 1 missile hardpoint is a wasted cause more often than not.)

Jenner-K's quirks:
MPL Cooldown - 7.5%
Energy Cooldown - 7.5%
Heat Generation - 10%

Firestarter-S's quirks:
Heat Generation - 15%
MPL Heat Genertation - 15%


Now remember, you ONLY have 4E hardpoints total on the Jenner-K... where the S has up to 7 (though, noone in their right mind would use that many... generally most people would run 5 or even 6 for sustainability).

The heat generation reduction is NOT TRIVIAL.

For the Jenner-K, you are running only 4 MPL if you make the most of the quirks... which generates 14.4 heat instead of the full 16.

For the Firestarter-S running 5MPL, you are generating 14 heat instead of 20 heat... which is pretty significant. Not only that you are doing MORE damage (30 damage vs 24), you are dishing more damage within the same period.

Sure, the Jenner-K has cooldown, allowing it to fire more... but when you are generating less damage AND more heat in the bursts (lower cooldown means your heat generation increases a little bit more since your normal time to fire again is quicker - the heat isn't dissipated any faster), the math is all sorts of wrong. Yes, you could spent the rest of the extra weight on DHS, but that's not even the point...

Then we'll get to the other part.... the arms. The arms of a Jenner don't get shot off very often... and it's not even necessary. However, for a mech that has no real "arms" to speak of, you can't trade it for protection. The Firestarter uses its arms for protection vs potentially fatal hits to the side torsos... often times making them "appear" more durable than they should be. The thing with the Jenner is that it must STARE AT THE TARGET to deal the damage. Firestarters don't have to do that UNLESS they lose their arms. For something like the Firestarter-A or in the Firestarter-S example, you can stuff weapons into the torsos... doing the same thing the the Jenner does at this point while armless. The only "negative" is that it won't have quite the motion the Jenner does when shooting things above and below it... the Firestarter has the WORST torso pitch of ALL MECHS in this game (worse than the Atlas).

With that said...

Let's go to the Jenner-F vs Firestater-H comparison

Jenner-F's Quirks:
Energy Range - 7.5%

Firestarter-H's Quirks:
Energy Range - 10%
Med Laser Heat Gen - 7.5%
Heat Generation - 7.5%

Just looking over it on paper (both 6E, though the H has ballistic torsos), it's not even fair.

This is before even factoring where the energy hardpoints are... and all the previous references to the Firestater.

Does an argument need to be made further here? More range and more heat reductions for the Firestarter-H. Wow. What more needs to be said?

Quote

I expect to catch a fair amount of flak for this opinion, but I see this as a problem.

As it stands there is no real game-play reason for a player to choose a Jenner, (or any other light for that matter) over a Firestarter. Ideally the choice between running a Fire-starter and running a Jenner would be a trade off between fire power and speed. Unfortunately with Hit-Reg and HSR being what they are there is no way to make other lights faster without introducing additional problems, and barring speed there is no real way to buff other lights up to the Firestarter's level without continuing to drive TTK through the floor or making the IS zerg rush even cheesier than it already is.

The Firestarter in some ways have hitreg issues, but then again I see people struggle to shoot Jenners and if you have problems shooting a Jenner's CT, you're not that good... full stop.

The reason why the Firestarters are picked over the Jenner is simply outright... it's a ****ing no brainer that the Firestarter quirks are better than the Jenner. Everything else muddles the conversation, but ultimately I stopped running Jenners in general BECAUSE of said quirks. Why hamper myself needlessly? It's not even a debate, moreso of the question "What the EFF is PGI thinking?"

Quote

As such I would propose that the Firestarter receive a minor reduction in engine cap, I'm thinking somewhere in the 260 - 280 range, to create a greater differentiation in speeds between the Firestarter and mechs like the Jenner, Spider, or Locust.

...and Go!

Edit:
The new meta?

Just no. FIX HITREG FIRST AND FOREMOST. In the meantime, just OUTRIGHT SWAPPING some of the stupidly crazy Firestarter quirks with the Jenners would at least shift the problem to different chassis that don't actually suffer from said problems and are stupidly corable with Streaks (BOTH IS and Clans no less).

However, I do think that the Jenner-F's current quirks would most likely make the Firestarter-H's use die overnight.

In any case... PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH and just state things and not explain yourself. You look bad by overgeneralizing why w/o specific examples, comparisons, and usage.

The thing about nerfing things is HOW YOU GO ABOUT NERFING instead of nerfing everything to the ground like JJs-Hoverjets™ and then suddenly call it "acceptable". The engine cap has ZERO to do as to why the Firestarter is mostly used. There's just a lot of beneficial traits and the fact that people fail to use it to their potential PRIOR to the quirks is primarily the issue at hand. No level of complaining can escape that.

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Could it really be worse than you playing acting like a querulous tumblr troll? By all means, point out the line in the OP where I personally insulted you.

The problem is that your statements don't express ANY opinion on your experience as a Light pilot. You grossly overgeneralize the problems and then say "here's the solution" and not explain yourself.

You didn't insult me, but the tone of the entire post, based on mere speculation, guesswork, and a whole lot of no-facts is part of the main problem. THAT is what I have a problem with.

I gave you chapter and verse on details on what the issues are and WHY that is a problem. I'd like to see your work.

Edit: Obvious erroneous typo fixed.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 March 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 02 March 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

-snip-
It's not as wide as you would think. The only reason why the Jenner isn't as appealing these days are STRICTLY QUIRKS.
-snip-

IMO, I think that the huge laser vomit and other alphas being thrown around these days might also be a factor here. The Jenner's gigantic "USS Enterprise" CT is a magnet for vomit strikes while the Fuegostarter's flat humanoid chest and big arms allow it to spread damage better.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

IMO, I think that the huge laser vomit and other alphas being thrown around these days might also be a factor here. The Jenner's gigantic "USS Enterprise" CT is a magnet for vomit strikes while the Fuegostarter's flat humanoid chest and big arms allow it to spread damage better.

Yes, but you know debating issues with facts is Lostech. The thread is evidence of that.

Jenner pilots had to be a LOT more cunning back in the day. Now, it's Firestarters shielding themselves with arms prancing because PGI can't get their hitreg BS together. Streaks on Jenner-CTs was ALWAYS a great balancing point and yet apparently people don't use their brain (I've killed enough Jenners WHILE in a Jenner with Streaks is like pure hilarity for me).

[Fuggles]

since the quirk system has come out there have been mechs that you just scratch your head at with the quirks they got. the spl A from the last quirk and the S with the current quirks. the arent in line with where they should be relative to other mechs.

[5LeafClover]

Deathlike, on 02 March 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

Let's just look at the quirks as currently constituted (since you didn't even bother to reach my comparisons in the first place.

Jenner-K vs Firestarter-H

For the sake of argument... let's ignore the missile hardpoint... since it's just not as useful as the Jenner-D. (Using 1 missile hardpoint is a wasted cause more often than not.)

Jenner-K's quirks:
MPL Cooldown - 7.5%
Energy Cooldown - 7.5%
Heat Generation - 10%

Firestarter-S's quirks:
Heat Generation - 15%
MPL Heat Genertation - 15%

................

For the Firestarter-K running 5MPL, you are generating 14 heat instead of 20 heat... which is pretty significant. Not only that you are doing MORE damage (30 damage vs 24), you are dishing more damage within the same period.

So remind me again: in the first quirk example, are we comparing the FS9-H, FS9-S or FS9-K?

Flame-trolling works best when you combine it with accuracy.

[Christof Romulus]

SolCrusher, on 02 March 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

I run standards in my Firestarters. It's priceless when the guy i just opened up blows off my shoulder expecting me to fall like a sack of potatoes but I stand there and finish him off while he's over heated.

So that was you...

[HlynkaCG]

Deathlike, on 02 March 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

It's not as wide as you would think. The only reason why the Jenner isn't as appealing these days are STRICTLY QUIRKS.

You're deluding yourself. Even without quirks the Firestarter was threatening to make the Jenner obsolete. It has better hit-boxes, more hard-points, and superior traverse ranges, while running running only 2.5 kph slower.

The only real advantage that the Jenner has to offer is it's missile hardpoints and XL300 engine with two internal HS slots. Points that you ignored in your comparisons. Sounds to me like you are trying making my point for me, the Firestarter's quirks are not the problem, It's just a flatly superior chassis.

Quote

...FIX HITREG FIRST AND FOREMOST.

You realize that the hit-reg issues result from percent vector errors don't you? It isn't exactly something that you "just fix". In the mean time we gave a problem, we can't buff the Jenner's damage output without further tanking TTK, and we cant buff it's speed or maneuverability without further breaking hit-reg, as such it is doomed to be out-classed by the Firestarter unless something is done to the Firestarter.

Quote

The problem is that your statements don't express ANY opinion on your experience as a Light pilot. You grossly overgeneralize the problems and then say "here's the solution" and not explain yourself.

I can only conclude at this point that you haven't actually been paying attention.

[Deathlike]

5LeafClover, on 02 March 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

So remind me again: in the first quirk example, are we comparing the FS9-H, FS9-S or FS9-K?

Flame-trolling works best when you combine it with accuracy.

I like how not reading what I was comparing the closest "quirk competitors" between a Firestarter and JENNER were actively being compared quirkwise.

Although, I make enough typos as it is, so I'll fix that and be on my way.

[Kiiyor]

Lights are already a marginal presence on the battlefield. I think the other lights should be brought up to the level of the FireStarter, rather than tossing an anchor onto that one mech. The Jenner, despite criticism, is already close, it just needs some love. Either a CT buff, or some heftier MLAS or SRM quirks.

I know if you took any speed of my lights, i'd shelve them forever.

[omessiaho]

Mister D, on 02 March 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Also... just because 6 guys at the very top apparently have no issues hitting lights (since they never miss), doesn't mean that the thousands of other players who do have issues landing their shots even when their aim is dead on are somehow null and void from the discussion.

This doesn't add up. If these guys can kill with good aim and everyone else can't then they don't have good aim. I've been killed enough to know that a decent player can easily take out a Firestarter. If the Firestarter really was the god mech people claim you'd see light queues higher than 10%. People feel their huge expensive mech should be able to just walk over the little guys and grossly overestimate their skill. The problem isn't the Firestarter, its people not being able to hit it. Nerfing the engine because people can't aim is going to take the one thing that makes lights actually competitive.

[Deathlike]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

You're deluding yourself. Even without quirks the Firestarter was threatening to make the Jenner obsolete. It has better hit-boxes, more hard-points, and superior traverse ranges, while running running only 2.5 kph slower.

No. There was a CHOICE between the Firestarter and Jenner.

While Jenners had the terrible CT, they had better weapons convergence than the Firestarter. While one could argue that the Firestarter-K would be the "closest" comparison (3E arms), it's usually a terrible risk to put so many weapons on arms that are meant to SHIELD oneself.

Firestarters have poor convergence with ALL of its weapons (torsos+arms) unless arm lock is in use.

Quote

The only real advantage that the Jenner has to offer is it's missile hardpoints and XL300 engine with two internal HS slots. Points that you ignored in your comparisons. Sounds to me like you are trying making my point for me, the Firestarter's quirks are not the problem, It's just a flatly superior chassis.

I'm only specifically talking about the Jenner as an energy platform, as the use of a Jenner these days have been more limited to an Oxide and the occasional Jenner-D. That's it.

You don't even really go why it is a superior chassis. All you did was say it is, not PROVE why it is. It's very different.

Quote

You realize that the hit-reg issues result from percent vector errors don't you? It isn't exactly something that you "just fix". In the mean time we gave a problem, we can't buff the Jenner's damage output without further tanking TTK, and we cant buff it's speed or maneuverability without further breaking hit-reg, as such it is doomed to be out-classed by the Firestarter unless something is done to the Firestarter.

That logic was applied to Ravens back when it was the dominant Light. Right now, people are STILL ASKING for the Raven's legs to REVERT their hitboxes to back in the Open Beta days. Right now they are OVERSIZED for what they are. They are still paying for that today (although they probably needed an armor buff quirk, but not as high because of that reason alone).

I regret actually supporting the increase of the Raven leg hitboxes, because the issue was more or less addressed once hitreg got better.

If you support balance decisions that breaks things "for now", the likelihood of PGI going back and reversing said decisions/changes are far less unlikely.

Remember, this logic was also used by the man who shall not be named about raising SRM damage back to 2.0 from whatever garbage value they were AFTER the massive splash change fix/change. His claim at that point at the time that they would like going back to the Splatcat days (which never happened at all). It took PGI like virtually A YEAR before they addressed SRM hitreg. Now IS SRMS deal 2.15 damage per missile (the .15 is a joke really but not the point). Yes... those fear of the Splatcats... just dandy.

Quote

I can only conclude at this point that you haven't actually been paying attention.

No.. the irony is that I've paid TOO much attention and you obviously haven't referenced things from PGI past that actually have been well documented... to the detriment of the game no less.

So, good luck with that.

[Adiuvo]

Mister D, on 02 March 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Also... just because 6 guys at the very top apparently have no issues hitting lights (since they never miss), doesn't mean that the thousands of other players who do have issues landing their shots even when their aim is dead on are somehow null and void from the discussion.

No, that's exactly what it means. It shows that, when aim is good, lights don't magically shrug off damage. The pilots I all listed still miss. They aren't aimbots. The differences lies in that they can tell when their shot is a miss or when it doesn't reg.

The game in general has hit reg issues on occasion. This applies to all mechs, including lights. Sometimes damage just doesn't transfer. However, it is nowhere near the degree that these forums likes to complain about, and instead the majority of these 'hit reg errors' are missed shots and spread damage.

This is incredibly obvious when I spectate. Even if spectator is a bit desynced from the client, the movements the client makes are still communicated. It's also obvious on Twitch, which has no lag. A lot of people just aren't the best at aiming here.

[norus]

5LeafClover, on 02 March 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

In principle, I find the OP's cap acceptable, but mostly because it's a negligible nerf. XL265 and XL280 are the best engines for FS9 IMO. But heck, I'd even entertain some of Mercules crazy low caps.

There's just one problem; It's not acceptable to expect people to grind for a new engine, just to accommodate a nerf (Pretty sure one of my FS9s came with an XL295).

So in practice, I'm a "No".

PGI doesn't care. Look what they did to the wolverine changing it from LPL to LLAS. Mah modules.

Anyways lowering light speed is a slippery slope as speed is absolutely required by them due to their armor. They need the speed to do damage and avoid damage. Their armor is just far too low to rely on it. If a timberwolf or SCR has its lasers on you for even half of their full duration that's enough damage to strip all the armor off a ST on a firestarter. If panther speed was lowered to 81 like lordred suggested I can't imagine anyone using it. A timberwolf moves the same speed and a SCR moves faster. Speed can be adjusted a bit (I run a 129kph huginn and it can do just fine) but anything drastic will kill the majority of lights. Quirks can't help an ultra slow light unless they reach obscene levels.

Also using a huginn i've been having to fight enemy firestarters using SRMs and can usually chase them off like that (but can't keep up). Clearly their speed isn't so op if I can hit them with the slowest projectile speed weapon in the game when they move horizontally to me. Lore realistic speeds are all well and good but don't translate to a game where an average joe can hold lasers on target at 500m with pinpoint accuracy.

[ApolloKaras]

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

You can see my entire list here.

Everyone is welcome to disagree with me, that is fine, just do not make personal attacks on me.

This is what I would want to see, and I am weird.

Spoiler

Engine Limitations

Mechs 80tons and lower may equip an engine one rating higher then the stock engine for that variant.

Mechs 85Tons and higher may equip an engine one half rating higher then the stock engine for that variant.

Exception:
Mechs which may equip ECM are limited to a max engine size equal to the default for that variant.

Lights

Spoiler

Locusts
LCT-1E: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-1M: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-1V: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-3M: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-3S: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-PB: 40-160 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h) (ECM)

Commandos
COM-1B: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-1D: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-2D: 50-150 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h) (ECM)
COM-3A: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-DK: 50-200 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)

Spiders
SDR-5D: 60-240 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h) (ECM)
SDR-5K: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
SDR-5V: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
SDR-AN: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)

Urbanmechs
UM-R60: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)
UM-R60L: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)
UM-R63: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)

Firestarters
FS9-A: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-E: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-H: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-K: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-S: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)

Jenners
JR7-D: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-F: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-K: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-O: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)

Panthers
PNT-8Z: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
PNT-9R: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
PNT-10K: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Ravens
RVN-2X: 70-210 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
RVN-3L: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h) (ECM)
RVN-4X: 70-210 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
RVN-HG: 70-315 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)

Mediums

Spoiler

Cicadas
CDA-2A: 80-360 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
CDA-2B: 80-360 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
CDA-3C: 80-320 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
CDA-3M: 80-320 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h) (ECM)
CDA-X5: 80-360 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)

Blackjacks
BJ-1: 90-225 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
BJ-1DC: 90-225 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
BJ-1X: 90-270 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
BJ-3: 90-225 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
BJ-A: 90-270 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)

Vindicators
VND-1AA: 90-270 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
VND-1R: 90-225 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
VND-1X: 90-225 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
VND-SI: 90-225 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Centurions
CN9-A: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
CN9-AH: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
CN9-AL: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
CN9-D: 100-350 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
CN9-YL: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Enforcers
ENF-4R: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
ENF-5D: 100-300 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
ENF-5P: 100-300 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)

Hunchbacks
HBK-4G: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
HBK-4H: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
HBK-4J: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
HBK-4P: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
HBK-4SP: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
HBK-GI: 100-250 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Trebuchets
TBT-3C: 100-350 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
TBT-5J: 100-300 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
TBT-5N: 100-300 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
TBT-7K: 100-300 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
TBT-7M: 100-300 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
TBT-LM: 100-350 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)

Griffins
GRF-1N: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
GRF-1S: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
GRF-3M: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
GRF-SP: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)

Kintaros
KTO-18: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
KTO-19: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
KTO-20: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
KTO-GB: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)

Shadowhawks
SHD-2D: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
SHD-2D2: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
SHD-2H: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
SHD-2K: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
SHD-5M: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
SHD-GD: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)

Wolverines
WVR-6K: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
WVR-6R: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
WVR-7K: 110-330 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)

Heavies

Spoiler

Dragons
DRG-1C: 120-360 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
DRG-1N: 120-360 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
DRG-5N: 120-360 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
DRG-FF: 120-360 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)

Quickdraws
QKD-4G: 120-360 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
QKD-4H: 120-360 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
QKD-5K: 120-360 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
QKD-IV: 120-300 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Catapults
CPLT-A1: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
CPLT-C1: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
CPLT-C4: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
CPLT-K2: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
CPLT-JS: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Jagermechs
JM6-A: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
JM6-DD: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
JM6-S: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
JM6-FB: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Thunderbolts
TDR-5S: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
TDR-5SS: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
TDR-9S: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
TDR-9SE: 130-325 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Cataphracts
CTF-1X: 150-350 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
CTF-2X: 150-350 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
CTF-3D: 150-350 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
CTF-4X: 150-280 (32.4kmh - 64.8km/h)
CTF-IM: 150-350 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Grasshoppers
GHR-5H: 150-350 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
GHR-5J: 150-350 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
GHR-5N: 150-350 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Orions
ON1-K: 150-375 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
ON1-M: 150-375 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
ON1-V: 150-375 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
ON1-VA: 150-375 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
ON1-P: 150-375 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Assaults

Spoiler

Awesomes
AWS-8Q: 160-320 (32.4kmh - 64.8km/h)
AWS-8R: 160-320 (32.4kmh - 64.8km/h)
AWS-8T: 160-320 (32.4kmh - 64.8km/h)
AWS-8V: 160-320 (32.4kmh - 64.8km/h)
AWS-9M: 160-400 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
AWS-PB: 160-400 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Victors
VTR-9B: 160-400 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
VTR-9K: 160-400 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
VTR-9S: 160-400 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
VTR-DS: 160-400 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Zeus
ZEU-6S: 160-400 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
ZEU-6T: 160-400 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
ZEU-9S: 160-400 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Battlemasters
BLR-1D: 170-385 (32.4kmh - 72.9km/h)
BLR-1G: 170-385 (32.4kmh - 72.9km/h)
BLR-1S: 170-385 (32.4kmh - 72.9km/h)
BLR-3M: 170-385 (32.4kmh - 72.9km/h)
BLR-3S: 170-385 (32.4kmh - 72.9km/h)
BLR-HB: 170-385 (32.4kmh - 72.9km/h)

Stalkers
STK-3F: 170-300 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
STK-3H: 170-300 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
STK-4N: 170-300 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
STK-5M: 170-300 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
STK-5S: 170-300 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
STK-MS: 170-300 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)

Highlanders
HNG-732: 180-315 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
HNG-733: 180-315 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
HNG-733C: 180-315 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
HNG-733P: 180-315 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
HNG-HM: 180-315 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)

Banshees
BNC-3E: 190-400 (32.4kmh - 68.2km/h)
BNC-3M: 190-400 (32.4kmh - 68.2km/h)
BNC-3S: 190-335 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
BNC-LM: 190-400 (32.4kmh - 68.2km/h)

Atlas
AS7-D: 200-350 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
AS7-D-DC: 200-300 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h) (ECM)
AS7-K: 200-350 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
AS7-RS: 200-350 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
AS7-S: 200-350 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
AS7-BH: 200-400 (32.4kmh - 64.8km/h)

King Crabs
KGC-000: 200-350 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
KGC-0000: 200-350 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)
KGC-000B: 200-350 (32.4kmh - 56.7km/h)

I'm not sure where to start with this. I would think that this list is incomplete as there are no clan mechs involved. However I would need to know the premise of slowing down every mech in the game. Currently the only thing that I see is because lights have a 'hit reg' problem. Currently where is the light queue at? The lights aren't taking the game over by any stretch. The highest I've seen it is when the Panther came out and it jumped to 24% lol. Since then its been a paltry 5-9%, why do we believe that is? If the hit reg problem is as rampant as people make it out to be we'd all be in TDK's running 171 kph. The only ones who are piloting lights anymore are the ones who are actually decent at it. When HSR came out that nuked the light queue because they WERE NOT hittable.

I consider myself to be an average at best pilot. I don't think Adi is 'cherry picking', you and I could drop in a 1v1 right now with you in a light, and if I shoot @ you and don't deal damage its because I missed. I rarely have hit reg problems on a shot that actually connects, my average ping is 62. Be it gauss/ppc/lasers I will routinely hit these shots. To say there are hit reg problems meaning that on your screen you hit the guy but no damage resulted. I may have that issue once a night in my *insert light here*, I don't think the problem is as wide spread as people make it out to be.

lsp, on 02 March 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

I'm all for any nerf to the Firestarters, they are ridiculous. Light mechs shouldn't be able to brawl, period. Let alone do 600 damage and 6 kills.

Sigh... Lights are hardly the primary target - ever. Even in a comp drop you aren't going to call that firestarter before the boom jager right behind him. Lights normally have 'free' uncontested damage because there are higher threats out there on the field. This is why you see high numbers from lights. Also a good light pilot can get great positioning to drop strikes etc that will inflate the damage numbers considerably.


EDIT:

Mister D, on 02 March 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Also... just because 6 guys at the very top apparently have no issues hitting lights (since they never miss), doesn't mean that the thousands of other players who do have issues landing their shots even when their aim is dead on are somehow null and void from the discussion.

There is a difference between hit reg and missing. If its a hit reg issue its one thing, however missing entirely and slowing down the chassis because people have an issue hitting it is something ENTIRELY different.

Edited by Saxie, 02 March 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[HlynkaCG]

Deathlike, on 02 March 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

No. There was a CHOICE between the Firestarter and Jenner.

Not really no, what you had were the grognards who were comfortable in thier founders mechs who didn't want to start fresh an a new chassis and the people who simply preferred the Jenner for more esoteric reasons than raw performance. Hell I love my Locusts and Commandos but I harbor no illusions about their place on the food-chain,

Quote

I'm only specifically talking about the Jenner as an energy platform, as the use of a Jenner these days have been more limited to an Oxide and the occasional Jenner-D. That's it.


You don't even really go why it is a superior chassis. All you did was say it is, not PROVE why it is. It's very different.

And that's kind of dishonest don't you think? Did you stop to consider why Jenner use these days has been more limited to an Oxide? It's because they are the only 2 variants that can do something that the Firestarters do not already do better, namely carry missile weapons.

I told you why I see the Firestarter as the superior chassis (3D model, Hard points, Traverse range, etc...) and you have yet to offer a rebuttal.