132 replies to this topic

[dario03]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

Not really no, what you had were the grognards who were comfortable in thier founders mechs who didn't want to start fresh an a new chassis and the people who simply preferred the Jenner for more esoteric reasons than raw performance. Hell I love my Locusts and Commandos but I harbor no illusions about their place on the food-chain,

There were tons of players that used JR7-F in comp drops. It made perfectly good sense to use a mix of Jenner Fs and Embers back in the day because the Jenner was better at poking and 6ml worked better than 4ml,4mg on fresh mechs.

[R A V 3 N]

I got owned by a Firestarter... please 'Nerf them down to my level' ...

[Deathlike]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

Not really no, what you had were the grognards who were comfortable in thier founders mechs who didn't want to start fresh an a new chassis and the people who simply preferred the Jenner for more esoteric reasons than raw performance. Hell I love my Locusts and Commandos but I harbor no illusions about their place on the food-chain,

No... I don't quite have that kind of affinity that you suggest I have. I like using the best mechs but I also like using bad mechs too. Painting me things that are untrue is hilarious though.

Quote

And that's kind of dishonest don't you think? Did you stop to consider why Jenner use these days has been more limited to an Oxide? It's because they are the only 2 variants that can do something that the Firestarters do not already do better, namely carry missile weapons.

I already considered it and GAVE THE REASONS. PGI doesn't know how to quirk things properly. Full stop.

It has less to do with the Firestarter and a Jenner as a whole.. it's more to WHAT WAS ACTUALLY GIVEN. Again, you're not even reading what I'm writing at all.

Quote

I told you why I see the Firestarter as the superior chassis (3D model, Hard points, Traverse range, etc...) and you have yet to offer a rebuttal.

I actually told you why both the Firestarter and Jenner was still usable IN DIFFERENT WAYS BEFORE THE QUIRKS, but you didn't read it. That's not on me at this point.

If you want to keep arguing the content of my messages point by point (from the beginning) when I had countered ANY/ALL of your points, please do so. Otherwise, you aren't actually doing a rebuttal. I did it and then some and right now your argument boils down to "Firestarters at the best Light mech, and I don't know why, but they need an arbitrary nerf that makes absolutely no sense".

So... please continue.

dario03, on 02 March 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

There were tons of players that used JR7-F in comp drops. It made perfectly good sense to use a mix of Jenner Fs and Embers back in the day because the Jenner was better at poking and 6ml worked better than 4ml,4mg on fresh mechs.

Dude, he's not here for a conversation. He just wants the nerf "because reasons".

There were legit reasons before and now there's every reason to run the particular Firestarters because PGI overquirked some and screwed the Jenners in the process.

Somehow that "logic" suggests "lower the engine cap". Seriously, I don't even know where that even comes from outside of the "dartboard of balance".

Edit:
It's just easier to label the thread title "Firestarters are OP" and be done with the convo.

At least "Firestarters got stupidly good quirks vs other Lights" is a conversation starter. This is definitely not one of those threads.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 March 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Deathlike, on 02 March 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

I'm personally insulted that this suggestion is being floated.

Please answer the following questions... be honest or don't bother:

1) Do you regularly see the Light queue end up @ < 10%? Occasionally. No higher than 12%

2) Are Lights generally making up "the 3" in 3/3/3/3? In my ELO Bracket? Normally.

3) Of all the Light mechs, is the Firestater the most common? Yes, along with Panthers and Ravens these days. Locusts and Spiders barely, But more than Commandos, and Jenners surprisingly.

Without needing to give away the answers (because they are genuinely rhetorical), the reason why people see Firestarters IS because of the really terribad/lopsided quirks that the Firestarter gets vs the other 35-tonners... let alone the non-35 ton Lights. Agreed

Compare the Jenner-K vs the Firestarter-S.

Compare the Jenner-F vs the Firestarter-H

Unless PGI gets its head out of its arse when it comes to analyzing quirks and balancing it between the mechs (let alone balancing within the same class of mechs), then you wouldn't need to be coming up with really dumb and completely arbitrary nerfs that makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for the class of mechs that honestly DO NOT GET ENOUGH PLAY in the first place. Indeed.

It's completely insulting to me as a Light pilot knowing full well that making excuses for things that people either don't pilot well or don't even understand just freaking BLOWS MY MIND. I bought firestarters after my own impotent rage at them. I still don't like them, but my reasons now have nothing to do with "broken hitboxes" or HSR issues.

So, before you even try to justify "any nerf", please actually be objective and constructive when it comes to Light. Any sort of anti-Light nerf that reduces/removes skill from the equation is just not something any of you can possibly justify. It's insulting and unless you've mastered them and even get a reasonable 1+ K/D ratio (bonus if you get 1+ W/L ratio), I honestly don't want to hear or see such garbage being spewed.

People play the class in all the wrong ways, and somehow they need a nerf? Play it for a freaking week (100 drops min) and see how the other side feels before you even come to such a terrible idea.

Answers in bold.

I normally don't agree with anything you post, you normally come off as just too negative (as a lot of people on here are)

But I whole heatedly agree with everything you just said.

[TB Freelancer]

Wow....so this is where you guys are hiding when you aren't crying that LRMs and Streaks are OP.

[Deathlike]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 02 March 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Answers in bold.

I normally don't agree with anything you post, you normally come off as just too negative (as a lot of people on here are)

But I whole heatedly agree with everything you just said.

I don't try to sound negative all the time (it depends on the content and/or tone of the message). I can't please everyone on that.

The thing is I'm not saying I'm trying to be well liked (it's not the most important thing to me), but moreso to try as best as I can to articulate my POV and I don't expect to be right all the time. I just want reasonable discourse as much as I possibly can.

Balancing is sensitive... but I don't believe in honestly bad ideas or "quick fixes" when the issue is a lot more complicated than just "tweaking numbers". If it were simple all the time.... good luck with that.

[The Mech behind you]

Now that I own some Firestarters too, I... I don't get it...

Why all that crying about the Firestarter? Ok, I'm in basics with my FS9s right now and running 130 kph, but that thing is far from invulnerable. I died more often than in any other of my lights (and I own all Locusts and Commandos). Instakilling a 130kph Firestarter doesn't seem to be a problem for most of the players I ran into the last few days. It just has more firepower than the other lights and is the uber squirrel because of it's reputation.

- It's a 3 blues vs. 6 reds brawl. Suddenly a FS9 comes over that hill. Let's ignore the Dires, Stalkers, Timbers and all focus on that FS9 before it kills all of us. We lost and the FS9 is still up? Nerf Firestarters!

- Oh look there's a FS9. Let us 3 chase him. Oh look he's running back to his buddies. Let's just run through their whole team focusing on the FS9. What? We got killed and that squirrel is still alive? Nerf Firestarters!

- I'm a lurm boat. Let's just move over there, far away from my team or let's just hang way back. Rear cored by FS9. This one is clear. Nerf Firestarters!

- I'm an energy assault or energy Sniper. Singled out (ofc). Suddenly a wild FS9 appears. I'm instantly starting with hectic mouse movements, only firing alphas as soon as the FS9 is on the screen. Shutdown! Effing Firestarter hitboxes. Start up! Instantly firing the next alpha as soon as the FS9 is on the screen. Shutdown! Rear cored by the Firestarter. Clearly the HSR is broken. Oh and nerf Firestarters!

- I'm a Gauss assault, slow streaker or boating pulse weapons in a slow mech. Firestarter sighted, hehe. Wait... he turns and runs. But, but, but my easy kill! I can't chase him in my 50 kph mech. Nerf Firestarters!

- Every other game has taught me the bigger the better. That 35t mech MUST instantly die when my 65t-100t mech is looking upon him.

Meanwhile all mediums, skilled Gauss / AC20 pilots, fast streakers or pulse boats just kill the Firestarter. Lol gg.

That's my observations over the last 3 days while playing Firestarters. You can exchange any light with the FS9 here ofc.

A question to anyone who's crying about Firestarters. Have you ever played one?

Edited by Norman Kosh, 02 March 2015 - 04:23 PM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Before you guys all reach for your flamers and pitch forks please hear me out...

I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that the Firestarter is the best IS light mech by a wide margin. In fact, it is one of the the best mechs in the game period really second only to the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow in all-around combat effectiveness. It has excellent hit-boxes, excellent hard-points, generous quirks, and can keep up with (if not flat out-run) every mech in the game excluding the spider.

I expect to catch a fair amount of flak for this opinion, but I see this as a problem.

As it stands there is no real game-play reason for a player to choose a Jenner, (or any other light for that matter) over a Firestarter. Ideally the choice between running a Fire-starter and running a Jenner would be a trade off between fire power and speed. Unfortunately with Hit-Reg and HSR being what they are there is no way to make other lights faster without introducing additional problems, and barring speed there is no real way to buff other lights up to the Firestarter's level without continuing to drive TTK through the floor or making the IS zerg rush even cheesier than it already is.


As such I would propose that the Firestarter receive a minor reduction in engine cap, I'm thinking somewhere in the 260 - 280 range, to create a greater differentiation in speeds between the Firestarter and mechs like the Jenner, Spider, or Locust.

...and Go!

Edit:
The new meta?

first off op i do feel your pain but lets be rational about this there are certain things that are the reason why the FS seems so much better then other lights. reason #1 for w/e reason HSR/lag or whatever your choice is FS do not seem to take full damage sometimes. like when you let a dual gauss loose and you know they both hit and more then that you KNOW they both hit the same torso (from your POV, got red indication and everything) but for whatever reason the FS torso is neither cracked nor blown out.

IDK why but there is something besides modeling, arms, lag w/e that causes the firestarter to appear to have some kind of "damage reduction". if anything we should ask PGI to do testing with custom games using pc's that are physically far apart so they can analyze the effect of the lag on aiming and actually hitting a firestarter.

you know might go something like this "wow, on the firestarters screen he obviously only got hit with a grazing shot, but on the phracts screen it looked like a dead on clean hit to the leg" and bam they can try to figure out how to remedy the problem. but nerfs to the FS are not the answer,

fixing some net code is the likely problem and it is probably compounded by players pings. my ping is always under 30 (spitting distance to PGI's servers) and often below 20 and i have witnessed this magic firestarter "damage reduction" and it varies greatly from completely non-existent to "holy #$# batman that thing is like a spider before HSR".

#2 FS do have better hit boxes overall compared to most lights. (a generalization, but still mostly true)

#3 firestarters have amazing quirks in general, they synergize better in general with the weapons selection that FS are good with acting as a force multiplier of sorts.

4# lights in general suck #$#$# hard, general player queue confirms this (almost always under 10%) thus players gravitate to the "best mech in class" naturally when the class in general sucks #$#$ . this is normal human behavior in a online pvp game.

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Be ready for people to hate you, just as they hate me.

I would totally be down for a change to engine rating caps for all of the mechs. (Most would go down, some would go up)

But, people dislike the idea in general.


Edit:


I would like to see this personally.


Locusts
LCT-1E: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-1M: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-1V: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-3M: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-3S: 40-180 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
LCT-PB: 40-160 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h) (ECM)

Commandos
COM-1B: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-1D: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-2D: 50-150 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h) (ECM)
COM-3A: 50-175 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
COM-DK: 50-200 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)

Spiders
SDR-5D: 60-240 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h) (ECM)
SDR-5K: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
SDR-5V: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)
SDR-AN: 60-270 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)

Urbanmechs
UM-R60: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)
UM-R60L: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)
UM-R63: 60-90 (32.4kmh - 48.6km/h)

Firestarters
FS9-A: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-E: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-H: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-K: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)
FS9-S: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h)

Jenners
JR7-D: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-F: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-K: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)
JR7-O: 70-280 (32.4kmh - 129.6km/h)

Panthers
PNT-8Z: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
PNT-9R: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)
PNT-10K: 70-175 (32.4kmh - 81.0km/h)

Ravens
RVN-2X: 70-210 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
RVN-3L: 70-245 (32.4kmh - 113.4km/h) (ECM)
RVN-4X: 70-210 (32.4kmh - 97.2km/h)
RVN-HG: 70-315 (32.4kmh - 145.8km/h)

in all honesty lordred. I advise you to go right now and buy every single non hero light (cept TDK, definitely get TDK its just so sexy...... ) play all of them till mastered then come back and tell me why your idea is bad.

but really your idea is bad, really bad, badly thought out and worse appears to just hate on lights in general. i mean universally reducing all lights engine caps? common you can come up with a better idea then that for making lights as a class relevant again.

light mechs are meant to go fast that literally is their entire purpose in TT and MWO as scouts speed IS their advantage that allows them to MOVE to that unwatched flank and pop a uav or sneak up on lrm boats clustered tightly to let off that air strike. There is NO good reason any of the lights should be made slower and EVERY reason for lights to have their engine caps raised.

and what about MASC? i cant wait to push my TDK to 200+ i mean hot #$#$# im salivating at the mouth at the thought. I don't care if all i got is 4 small lasers mother #$%$#%$ers i can sprint over 200 catch me if you can .

and there is the squirrel argument as well. even IF one light is a really good back-stabber (FS, Jenners, some locusts est) others are excellent distractions being able to weave in battle like its nobodies business (cough TDK, spiders, locusts when done right cough) so there are different ways to play lights beyond looking at them as simply fast, agile, hard to hit brawlers. i cant tell you how many games ive laughed my ass off as 3-4 enemies are trying to catch me in my TDK only to be led right into a trap and cut off from their team.

some would argue the very essence of lights is to be a distraction and to sew chaos among the battle lines. so honestly lordred why the hate on lights? don't like having to watch your back? get cored by a sneaky locust? its ok man you can tell us.

Edited by Mellifluer, 02 March 2015 - 07:18 PM.

[Fate 6]

This would change nothing. The FS9-S already runs engines in that range. I personally run an XL255.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Yep, 255 is the best fit for almost all loadouts.

Only time I go less or more, is if I want to run Dual AMS on my FS9-S, or smalls and MG on my -H

[Aiden Skye]

Firestarters are rediculous. That hit reg / hitboxes ugh.

Would be nice to see varying quirks for light mechs that help reinforce the scouting roll.....like - radar detection range, + Sensor range...I mean by lore some of these mechs are supposed to have advanced sensor suites. Quirks that increase sensor radius / scan type could also be interesting...instead of everything going to straight damage.

I think another part of the problem is MWO is getting way too centered on Brawling. Why bring a scouting focused mech or a spotter? Why not just bring the mech that does the most damage?

[Dino Might]

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

If you are staying in the fight that long in a light. You are doing it wrong.

My locusts regularly overheat. I can tell you that I play them fairly well (most of the time), and usually run in the 80-90% heat range, having to selectively fire my weapons to prevent shutdown. I'm not sure your idea of light tactics is in line with the current builds and state of play if you don't consider lights to have challenges with managing heat.

Heat management is the biggest challenge for lights. That and not velcroing yourself to a wall/building while dodging around the more than ample rocks, stumps, trees, buildings, etc.

[Dino Might]

W A R K H A N, on 02 March 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

Firestarters are rediculous. That hit reg / hitboxes ugh.

Would be nice to see varying quirks for light mechs that help reinforce the scouting roll.....like - radar detection range, + Sensor range...I mean by lore some of these mechs are supposed to have advanced sensor suites. Quirks that increase sensor radius / scan type could also be interesting...instead of everything going to straight damage.

I think another part of the problem is MWO is getting way too centered on Brawling. Why bring a scouting focused mech or a spotter? Why not just bring the mech that does the most damage?

Why not just bring the biggest mech that can take the most damage and do the most damage at any range? Enter the Timby, Tbolt, Dire, Hellby, Crab, and (now) Stalker. You've hit the nail on the head. The only reason to bring the smaller stuff is for the fun of it. Fortunately, some do like that style of play and will take the high risk / high reward mechs and make a fight of it. Trying to lower overall speed of everything will only serve to further stifle the people that choose to run Commandos, Locusts, Jenners, etc. because you will take a lot of fun out of them when they have to slog around near the same speed as the mediums.

I'd rather we look for an alternative solution to selectively balance the mechs that need balancing, though I wouldn't say the Firestarter is one of them. Seriously, sweep the leg, Johnny, and it's over for them. I still can't figure out what everyone is complaining about.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Clanbabies crying for more IS nerfs. None of the people complaining have probably ever broken a 1000 damage in a light (Or any mech for that matter).

They need something to blame because they cannot see its their own noob skill level that causes them to be ***** repeatedly by mechs that are supposed to be IS garbage compared to their OP clan "Lore".

The crybabies succeeded in killing the TDR9S. I will never pilot mine again preferring the easy mode of my Tiberwolves, Stormcrows and Direwolves to overheating after each 20pt alpha...

Edited by MechWarrior5152251, 02 March 2015 - 07:56 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I have no problem placing sensible engine limits on all mechs, including Lights. If players are concerned for Lights then lets lower Heat Capacity and activate that code that desyncs Gauss from stacking with PPCs. Then modify Heat Scale as necessary.

With our current doubled weapon values, I can see 28 be the first override-able shutdown. Then we keep the current internal damage the longer we run around above that 28 heat threshold up to an automatic shutdown at 44 heat until, heat drops below 28 to start back up and we could leave the system at that without worrying about any other P&P stuff.

If that is too low for Capacity, then I can see 44 heat be the override-able value, with 60 being the Automatic Shutdown.

And remember, such a change will coincide with raising dissipation so that our heat capacity is more dissipation over time, with the main goal being the prevention of current abuses that allow us to hammer each other with such high alphas and only a minor overheat inconvenience if we are riding the current threshold hard.

[NKAc Street]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that the Firestarter is the best IS light mech by a wide margin.

No pitchforks here, the problem is that it is not the best mech, it is one of the more broken mechs that people run. It needs fixed not a bandaid.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Most light mechs are pretty anemic, so therefore the Firestarter needs to be nerfed to make it less useful?

GG, forums, gg.

Don't misunderstand the Space Pope, he would love to see some other viable light mechs (at a higher ELO bracket or comp) but trying to limit light mech engines isn't going to do that.

One thing the Space Pope always wonders however is, why is that when people talk about lowering light mech speeds, they never talk about lowering all speeds across the board?

If the argument is that we must stay below 145 KPH for hitreg, then lower everything proportionally, sure it will be a game of slow snail mechs, but then at least the HSR excuse will be gone.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 02 March 2015 - 08:09 PM.

[ilKhan_OrHan]

You don't want to go slower in Inner Sphere lights. IS light speed is almost your only asset against Arctic Cheetah. It will be ACH r@pe train as it is. Only superior pilot skill can save you in IS light vs ACH. You won't have that advantage against me in my ACH come July 21st. Assaults will get ninja-ed in record time.

Firestarter 28 point overall armor advantage vs ACH is negated by ACH sneaking up undetected per ECM and getting one or two alphas off before FS9 knows what hit hm. FS9 has no firepower, jj, or ECM advantage over ACH. That leaves one category left for lights. Better be ready to haul ass back to the group.

FS9 is nerfed simply by being rendered obsolete by ACH being released July 21st. No further nerfing is required.

Can't wait for those Clan ACH light rushes in Community Warfare. Clans will march straight to Terra EVERY map reset even faster than now. IS CW win percentage will drop even lower below 60/40 Clans way as it is now. Since you have no Streak-6's, I hope you have good aim. Won't be targeting boxes on the ACH rush per ECM. Joystick users may as well not enter the queue on IS side since you won't be hitting the ACH much.

Edited by ilKhan_OrHan, 03 March 2015 - 04:39 AM.

[Impossible Wasabi]

ilKhan_OrHan, on 02 March 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

FS is nerfed simply by being made obsolete by AC being released July 21st. No further nerfing is required.

Can't wait for those Clan AC light rushes in Community Warfare. Clans will march straight to Terra EVERY map reset even faster than now. IS CW win percentage will drop even lower below 60/40 Clans way as it is now.

Indeed, the Space Pope is looking forward to being able to cull his collection of mechs down to only Clan mechs for pure Tier 1 goodness all across the board.

Light: Arctic Cheetah (Clan lasers, ECM, JJs and good speed? GG close IS light mechs.)
Medium: Stormcrow (maybe Shadow Cat if it proves useful with ECM)
Heavy: Mad Cat (maybe Ebon Jaguar if proves to be competitive)
Assault: Daishi (Gladiator might be good, but probably won't straight up replace the Daishi)

The only real downside is that there won't be much reason to use IS mechs, apart from occasional outliers like the Dragon-1N and the surprisingly still decent Thunderbolts(5SS and 9S).

Still, whatevs, we can all play glorious clan mechs and enjoy that wonderful clan tech until IS tech/mechs catch up at some point in the far future.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 02 March 2015 - 08:56 PM.

[ilKhan_OrHan]

The True Space Pope, on 02 March 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

Indeed, the Space Pope is looking forward to being able to cull his collection of mechs down to only Clan mechs for pure Tier 1 goodness all across the board.

Light: Arctic Cheetah (Clan lasers, ECM, JJs and good speed? GG close IS light mechs.)
Medium: Stormcrow (maybe Shadow Cat if it proves useful with ECM)
Heavy: Mad Cat (maybe Ebon Jaguar if proves to be competitive)
Assault: Daishi (Gladiator might be good, but probably won't straight up replace the Daishi)

ACH/SCR/TBR/DWF are tier 0, GOD tier, not 1, as they have no class equivalent equal in the game right now. Potentially for years to come.

I'd say SHC/EBJ will be tier 0.5. That is, without equal from anything IS, but not at the top of the Clan hierarchy. Expect ACH/SHC/SCR/EBJ/TBR to be about all you will see from the serious Clan CW premades.

1/1/1/1 in CW is not an issue for Clans come July 21st.

Edited by ilKhan_OrHan, 03 March 2015 - 01:20 AM.