132 replies to this topic

[Lordred]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Depends on what it got replaced with...

This is beyond the scope of the thread either way. The point is that a global engine nerf to IS lights would just make an unpopular class even more unpopular, unless an equally big buff got put in place at the same time.

I have a lot of ideas, but I am not the one in control of game the development/balancing.

Most of the ideas I've had involve very easy changes to make just to try them, and I would kill for a chance to simply just try them. But Alas, I do not get to make those decisions.

I still stand by a universal engine cap change, but I am not the one who will get to make that decision, and us talking about it on the forums will likely not change it.

Adiuvo, on 02 March 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

I'll just like to nip this in the bud early in the thread.

Ask any of these players if they have problems hitting lights.

http://twitch.tv/heimdelight
http://twitch.tv/celyth
http://twitch.tv/prtn_spz
http://twitch.tv/twinkyoverlord
http://twitch.tv/jagerxii

Cherry picking does not help you.

Adiuvo, I do not see eye to eye with you on this subject, but I will not fight with you about this.

Edited by Lordred, 02 March 2015 - 09:48 AM.

[Haipyng]

The worst thing you can do for player morale and happiness is nerf what they already have in hand. Anyone with JJ mechs that had these before the nerf can tell you that.

Edited by Haipyng, 02 March 2015 - 10:29 AM.

[Mystere]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Before you guys all reach for your flamers and pitch forks please hear me out...

Flamers and pitchforks? Nah! I have something more special for you:

focuspark, on 02 March 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Negative quirks on their turn and twist rate would put Firestarters where they belong.

In the dustbin?
Lights were going under 5% in the solo queue last night.

[Ultimax]

It's not hard to be the best light mech, when so many other light mechs have bad hardpoints, bad quirks, bad hitboxes.


The Firestarter doesn't need any nerfs, people need to play better when facing them or other light mechs need to be brought up a notch or two.

[TygerLily]

I think they should mess with the quirks.

Reserve range buffs for Jenners, heat reduction buffs for Firestarters.

Something like :
(Weapon Specific and General are separete, stack for big bonuses)

Jenner F
ML Range 7.5% (Energy Weapon Range 7.5%)
Medium Laser Duration 10%

Range quirks for poking, duration quirks to lower exposure.

Jenner D
SRM/4 Cooldown 15% (Missile Weapon Cooldown7.5%)
SRM/4 Heat Generation -7.5% (Missile Weapon Heat Generation -7.5%)
Energy Weapon Range 7.5%

Little bit of range, strong SRM quirks akin to the Oxide (but the Oxide would still have more range and better heat reduction). Makes this a goodish at poking, strong in striking with SRMs.

Jenner K
Energy Weapon Cooldown 15%
Medium Pulse Laser Range 50% (Energy Weapon Range 25%)
Missile Weapon Range 20%

Weakest Jenner given the Thundy 5SS treatment...but remember, this mech only has 4 energy points, 1 missile.

Jenner Oxide
SRM/4 Cooldown15% (Missile Weapon Cooldown7.5%)
SRM/4 Heat Generation -15% (Missile Weapon Heat Generation -7.5% )
SRM/4 Range15% (Missile Weapon Range -7.5% )

No change.
_______________________________________________________________________

Firestarter S

Medium Pulse Laser Heat Generation-30% (Energy Weapon Heat Generation -15%)

No change.

Firestarter A

Energy Weapon Heat Generation -10%
Small Pulse Laser Range 15% (Energy Weapon Range 7.5%)

No change.

Firestarter H
Large Laser Heat Generation -20% (Energy Weapon Heat Generation -10%)
Large Laser Range 20% (Energy Weapon Range 10%)
Ballistic Weapon Range 25%


Role swapped with -K to make this the Firestarter poker of choice because it has the lowest number of enery hardpoints (aside from Ember). IE, why have lots of enery points but quirks for heavy, singular weapons? Quirks for range for poking, heat gen to allow the Mech some freedom from spending tonnage on DHS.

Firestarter K

Medium Laser Heat Generation -15% (Energy Weapon Heat Generation -7.5%)
Energy Weapon Duration 7.5%

Role swapped with -H as the ML brawler because more energy hardpoints. Energy Range changed to Duration buff. So compard to Jenner F, better heat efficiency ...but the -F has significantly better range and a little more beam duration buff.

Firestater Ember
Ballistic Weapon Range 25%
Medium Laser Heat Generation -7.5%

Edited by TygerLily, 02 March 2015 - 10:12 AM.

[Deathlike]

I'm personally insulted that this suggestion is being floated.

Please answer the following questions... be honest or don't bother:

1) Do you regularly see the Light queue end up @ < 10%?

2) Are Lights generally making up "the 3" in 3/3/3/3?

3) Of all the Light mechs, is the Firestater the most common?

Without needing to give away the answers (because they are genuinely rhetorical), the reason why people see Firestarters IS because of the really terribad/lopsided quirks that the Firestarter gets vs the other 35-tonners... let alone the non-35 ton Lights.

Compare the Jenner-K vs the Firestarter-S.

Compare the Jenner-F vs the Firestarter-H

Unless PGI gets its head out of its arse when it comes to analyzing quirks and balancing it between the mechs (let alone balancing within the same class of mechs), then you wouldn't need to be coming up with really dumb and completely arbitrary nerfs that makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE for the class of mechs that honestly DO NOT GET ENOUGH PLAY in the first place.

It's completely insulting to me as a Light pilot knowing full well that making excuses for things that people either don't pilot well or don't even understand just freaking BLOWS MY MIND.

So, before you even try to justify "any nerf", please actually be objective and constructive when it comes to Light. Any sort of anti-Light nerf that reduces/removes skill from the equation is just not something any of you can possibly justify. It's insulting and unless you've mastered them and even get a reasonable 1+ K/D ratio (bonus if you get 1+ W/L ratio), I honestly don't want to hear or see such garbage being spewed.

People play the class in all the wrong ways, and somehow they need a nerf? Play it for a freaking week (100 drops min) and see how the other side feels before you even come to such a terrible idea.

[HlynkaCG]

Koniving, on 02 March 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

I only use up to 230 engines in my Firestarter anyway, standards to XLs, and pack on some interesting firepower while still solo'ing anything except the Stormcrow or Mad Dog (streak boats, yeah, scary). Used to kick metal with just the Firestarter, but after quirks it became easy street and I'm not taking pride in mass kills/damage anymore.

In a similar boat, but I still feel obligated to bring the cheese-starter in group queue because as much as I despise those "If you aren't piloting a _____, You're hurting your team!" arguments there is some truth to them

Tahribator, on 02 March 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

I don't agree with the lower engine cap. The FS9-S makes up for the bulk of the FS horde out here, why not just get rid of the S' ridiculous 30% MPL heat generation bonus? The quirks of the A and H can be trimmed a bit in the meantime to bring them in-line with the Jenner and to keep people from flocking to them.

These overpowered quirks are the only reason these 'Mechs are so popular, the non-Ember Firestarters were as rare as unicorns on the battlefield before.

I disagree,

The FS-9A and Ember are both far more common than the FS-9S, you only see a lot of Ss in the PUG queue because it is one of the better trial mechs. Likewise even without the quirks the Firestarter would still be a straight upgrade to the Jenner, It gives up 2.5 kph for more hard-points, more JJs, better hit-boxes, and articulated arms. You'd be an idiot not to take that trade.

As an additional aside, according to my printed copy of TRO 3050, the FS-9S should also have a Guardian ECM in it's stock config.

[Ultimax]

TygerLily, on 02 March 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

Firestarter H
Large Laser Heat Generation -20% (Energy Weapon Heat Generation -10%)
Large Laser Range 20% (Energy Weapon Range 10%)
Ballistic Weapon Range 25%


Role swapped with -K to make this the Firestarter poker of choice because it has the lowest number of enery hardpoints (aside from Ember). IE, why have lots of enery points but quirks for heavy, singular weapons? Quirks for range for poking, heat gen to allow the Mech some freedom from spending tonnage on DHS.

Firestarter K

Medium Laser Heat Generation -15% (Energy Weapon Heat Generation -7.5%)
Medium Laser Duration 7.5%

Role swapped with -H as the ML brawler because more energy hardpoints. Energy Range changed to Duration buff. So compard to Jenner F, better heat efficiency ...but the -F has significantly better range and a little more beam duration buff.

You would basically kill the H to improve the K. That's not a good direction.


LLAS quirks for light mechs are generally BAD. They weigh FIVE TONS each, these are a questionable investment on many heavy mechs, much less light mechs.


Not to mention 6 is more than enough hardpoints for MLAS, you don't really want more than 6 of them.


The K, with it's 8 energy hardpoints should have gotten good small laser quirks. It would be the only Firestarter with Small Laser quirks, and Small Lasers do not have any Ghost Heat penalty. You could put 8 of them on a FS9-K for a mere 4 tons.

[TygerLily]

Ultimatum X, on 02 March 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

LLAS quirks for light mechs are generally BAD. They weigh FIVE TONS each, these are a questionable investment on many heavy mechs, much less light mechs.

H with 2 LL, 3 JJ, max engine, and .65 tons or amor shaved from empty arm. 59% heat efficiency. Put on top of that 30% range and 20% heat reduction and you'd be a monster.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1bc5ac6ecda033d

I realize they weigh 5 tons each but the ERLL Spiders/Ravens are effective for a reason!! Hardly a questionable decision...

Ultimatum X, on 02 March 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Not to mention 6 is more than enough hardpoints for MLAS, you don't really want more than 6 of them.

The K, with it's 8 energy hardpoints should have gotten good small laser quirks. It would be the only Firestarter with Small Laser quirks, and Small Lasers do not have any Ghost Heat penalty. You could put 8 of them on a FS9-K for a mere 4 tons.

Actually between my posting and your response, I went back and make the K's duration buff into a generic energy to address the small laser thing.

Edited by TygerLily, 02 March 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[Styxx42]

I disagree vehemently.
We have to stop NEFFING unless they are literally game balance\changing issues.
A firestarters speed is not.
I have been hit with the Nerf hammer too many times.
Firestart nerfed once already.  Slowing it down.  WOW would that suck
Work with what we have and move forward is what I say.
I can only think that OP and the rest of the NERF  this or that posters get owned by what ever thing they want to nerf most of the time..
Yes Firestarters are dangerous.  Totally.  And scary when they run in packs.
Bring a mech that is equipped to deal with them.
NOT heavies or assaults.
A good Medium.  Like a Wolverine is my pick.
I play Firestarters and I play Woverines.  I LOVE when a firestarter runs up on my TAG enabled Wolverine that also has 3 LPL.  Chain fire with Tagging makes them run the other way really quick and that is when I get their leg or good team LRM fire will also take them out.
Now a raven comes my way with Dual ERLL and it is a whole different ball game I loose more often then naught.
But I like the raven as well.
I say, STOP NERFFING and start fixing all the CRABTASTIC mechs still out there.
And the well crafted post of  slowing down all lights.
They would become pins for the Assaults to bowl over.
Bad idea in my opinion

Edited by Styxx42, 02 March 2015 - 10:27 AM.

[Ultimax]

TygerLily, on 02 March 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

H with 2 LL, 3 JJ, max engine, and .65 tons or amor shaved from empty arm. 59% heat efficiency. Put on top of that 30% range and 20% heat reduction and you'd be a monster.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1bc5ac6ecda033d

That's a bad build though.

You have 18 firepower, you have mid-range ability.

You can't really snipe, and you absolutely can not brawl.

The FS9-S had LLAS quirks from the first pass, no one played it because LLAS quirks on light mechs like Firestarters are bad.


They changed it to MPLs and now it is arguably the best of all Firestarters outside of pure short range brawling (FS9-A).

TygerLily, on 02 March 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

I realize they weigh 5 tons each but the ERLL Spiders/Ravens are effective for a reason!!

2x ERLLAS Ravens are effective because

1) They have HIGH energy mounts. Not Waist level mounts like a Firestarter.
2) They have ECM, so they can snipe unmolested.
3) ERLLAS are not LLAS, they have actual sniping range.



A Jenner would be massively better with ERLLAS/LLAS quirks than a Firestarter, because at least they are capable of superior ridge humping with their high energy mounts.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 March 2015 - 10:26 AM.

[HlynkaCG]

Deathlike, on 02 March 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

Hyperbole...

Yes across the board.

I'm not sure what queue or ELO bracket you're playing in where Firestarters are not the most common light mech by a wide margin. In my experience the light queue in both Solo and Group play is comprised of roughly 30% Firestarters, 30% ECM Mechs, and 40% everything else.

As it stands the Firestarter A, H, S and Ember are flatly superior to any given Jenner variant with the possible exemption of the Oxide and JRF-D who are debatable only due to the greater FLD allowed by their multiple missile hard-points.

[Tahribator]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

I disagree,

The FS-9A and Ember are both far more common than the FS-9S, you only see a lot of Ss in the PUG queue because it is one of the better trial mechs. Likewise even without the quirks the Firestarter would still be a straight upgrade to the Jenner, It gives up 2.5 kph for more hard-points, more JJs, better hit-boxes, and articulated arms. You'd be an idiot not to take that trade.

As an additional aside, according to my printed copy of TRO 3050, the FS-9S should also have a Guardian ECM in it's stock config.

Yet, before the IS quirks came and made the FS9-A (first) and FS9-S (second) the top dogs of the IS lights, the universal answer to the "What is the best IS light?" was a constant and solid "JR-7F" followed by the Ember. Firestarter A, H, S and K were completely absent from the solo/group queues despite the advantages you counted above. It's exactly the opposite now. Jenners are very rare, but Firestarters are everywhere. So, what happened?

The quirks happened. Pulse 'Mechs were double boosted by the quirks and afterwards with the pulse changes (pulse heat = regular laser heat). PGI trimmed most of the pulse quirks with the second pass (even the LCT-3M) to compensate, but they left the Firestarter quirks untouched. The result is the FS profileration we see now.

About FS populations, my experience is exactly the opposite. Most of the good light pilots prefer the S, followed by the A. The Ember is very rare as it's grossly left behind in the quirk department.

[Deathlike]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

Yes across the board.

You didn't even read it based on your answer.

Quote

I'm not sure what queue or ELO bracket you're playing in where Firestarters are not the most common light mech by a wide margin. In my experience the light queue in both Solo and Group play is comprised of roughly 30% Firestarters, 30% ECM Mechs, and 40% everything else.

You must be in some special level of Elo, certainly nowhere in the same region as mine.

I see team compositions that tend to have me as the only Light mech (with the occasional/frequent 2nd and rare 3rd, with a unicorn level where I saw a 4th) in any given drop.

Quote

As it stands the Firestarter A, H, S and Ember are flatly superior to any given Jenner variant with the possible exemption of the Oxide and JRF-D who are debatable only due to the greater FLD allowed by their multiple missile hard-points.

Do you know WHY I mentioned some of those mechs listed? It sounds like you skimmed my points and not actually reading WHY that is.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 March 2015 - 10:37 AM.

[Zolaz]

Its ok ... the clans are getting their own version of the Firestarter, just with ECM. Go ahead and buy the package, it is what PGI wants you to do.

[HlynkaCG]

As I recall the FS was starting to supplant the JRF as "best light" long before the quirks, the quirkening just turned what had been a fighting retreat into a rout.

[Catra Lanis]

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

Try a slower light, you might be supprised, I practice what I preach, at speeds below 145kph, HSR starts to work a lot better. You will become a better pilot.

My 2X tops out at 124 km/h. I've never felt it lacked for speed. I just come from back to back matches with 4 and 6 kills and around 600 damage each. No mech really needs to be faster than say 140 km/h. It isn't exactly slow.

[Adiuvo]

Lordred, on 02 March 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

Cherry picking does not help you.

Adiuvo, I do not see eye to eye with you on this subject, but I will not fight with you about this.

That's not cherry picking. Those pilots all have something in common and its not magically having better hit reg against light mechs.

That thing in common is basically at the center of light hit reg complaints.

[TygerLily]

Ultimatum X, on 02 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

That's a bad build though.

CURRENTLY...yes.

Ultimatum X, on 02 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

You have 18 firepower, you have mid-range ability.

You can't really snipe, and you absolutely can not brawl.

The FS9-S had LLAS quirks from the first pass, no one played it because LLAS quirks on light mechs like Firestarters are bad.

Firstly, alphastike power isn't always a good measure of effectiveness. So what if it's 18 damage. 18 damage repeatedly from 600 meters adds up quick.

Secondly, I think you're missing the quirks.
LL with my suggested quirks and Level 5 module: 900 + 30% + 10% - 1260 meters.
Unquirked ERLL: 1,350 meters

The difference is that of a small laser (90m) but the FS9 would be firing with the heat of a LL minus another -30%...4.9 heat vs the ERLL's 8 heat. So yea...the Spider or Raven may have ECM but they run 61% hotter. TRADE OFF! Always good!

And, IMO, low mounts are less important if you increase the range at which you are engaging (especially in a small frame like the Firestarter). I don't think they are much lower than the Spider:



I also think you make a good point about Jenners having the monopoly on range quirks but I think by going to the very large end of the scale (LL vs ML) then it gives the Firestarter a different sort of poking and playstyle than the Jenner. Plus one of the canon variants had a LL so it's not totally out there as far as the feel of the game.

Edited by TygerLily, 02 March 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[Chadamir Fitzkrieg]

TBH... I think all mechs should be slower. Closer to the stock engines.