132 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

unfortunately this idea requires too much effort on PGI's behalf.

however a very easy way of doing mostly the same thing would just be to halve the sensor range on heavies and assaults.

lights and mediums = 800m sensor range
heavies and assaults = 400m sensor range

heavies and assaults would then be forced to rely on lights and mediums for scouting/spotting giving those lighter weight classes a more important role in the game.

Additionally there could be sensor quirks for mechs like the raven and atlas. Those mechs should have better than average detection for their weight class.

Edited by Khobai, 02 March 2015 - 05:30 PM.

[Macksheen]

I would love to see sensor range and other buffs instead of just weapon based quirks.

[Lynx7725]

I don't agree to using tonnage as a measure. In theory it works well, in practice a stepped approached based on tonnage means lights would get into your rear lines very quickly. 500~600m can be covered by a light exceedingly fast, and light rushes would be hard to address.

Nonetheless, I feel that there is merit to this idea, but we can change it to be more along weight class, as suggested by some others. 800/ 775/ 750/ 725, perhaps, but the specifics can be tweaked. We can also take a page out of Heavy Gear's rules by having each mech have a signature stat, with quirks to adjust that up and down as fit; this quirk will then further modify the detection radius.

This can also help to address the ECM "Jesus Box" problem, by turning ECM into a "signature reduction" system within its effective radius, rather than a blanket "NOTHING HERE, MOVE ALONG".

So for example, if a Raven would normally be detected at 725m, a quirk can reduce this by 50m to 675m, then ECM further enhance the quirk by reducing detection by say 150m, which result to targetable only at 425m... which is VERY close, but still reasonably workable. Meanwhile, the accompanying King Crab, being an Assault, is targetable at 800m, and with ECM support, reduces to 650m. ECM can then be "stackable", which means two Ravens covering each other and the King Crab will mean the Crab is detectable at 500m, while the Ravens will only be targetable at 275m.

[FupDup]

Lynx7725, on 02 March 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

I don't agree to using tonnage as a measure. In theory it works well, in practice a stepped approached based on tonnage means lights would get into your rear lines very quickly. 500~600m can be covered by a light exceedingly fast, and light rushes would be hard to address.

Nonetheless, I feel that there is merit to this idea, but we can change it to be more along weight class, as suggested by some others. 800/ 775/ 750/ 725, perhaps, but the specifics can be tweaked. We can also take a page out of Heavy Gear's rules by having each mech have a signature stat, with quirks to adjust that up and down as fit; this quirk will then further modify the detection radius.

This can also help to address the ECM "Jesus Box" problem, by turning ECM into a "signature reduction" system within its effective radius, rather than a blanket "NOTHING HERE, MOVE ALONG".

So for example, if a Raven would normally be detected at 725m, a quirk can reduce this by 50m to 675m, then ECM further enhance the quirk by reducing detection by say 150m, which result to targetable only at 425m... which is VERY close, but still reasonably workable. Meanwhile, the accompanying King Crab, being an Assault, is targetable at 800m, and with ECM support, reduces to 650m. ECM can then be "stackable", which means two Ravens covering each other and the King Crab will mean the Crab is detectable at 500m, while the Ravens will only be targetable at 275m.

The problem with being based on weight class is that it assumes all mechs within one class are roughly equal. In the current game, they are not. Usually (but not always), the heavier ones are the better ones within their class. That's why it was tonnage based, so that the mechs on the low-end of their class had at least some tradeoff.

[Lynx7725]

FupDup, on 02 March 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

The problem with being based on weight class is that it assumes all mechs within one class are roughly equal. In the current game, they are not. Usually (but not always), the heavier ones are the better ones within their class. That's why it was tonnage based, so that the mechs on the low-end of their class had at least some tradeoff.

Perhaps. Personally, I prefer to go with weight class, then quirk it further. You'll need to use quirks anyway, in order to differentiate the chassis, so why not use it more extensively? It may be better to use quirk rather than a tonnage or weight class method to achieve this.

[Strum Wealh]

KraftySOT, on 02 March 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

See in battletech. A hill blocks everything. Buildings block some things. Woods block some things. Constructions (walls, concrete or metal, or some other such construction) blocks nothing.

.....

Hills block seismic for instance (doesnt happen in MWO) but buildings wont. Magscan should see through buildings, thats a mode we dont even have. Then you have night vision.

We have seismic as a module, even though its available to infantry units...

Dimento Graven, on 02 March 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

... Why would hills block seismic?

That seems... spurious...

Hills (and structures) do NOT block seismic sensors in BattleTech.

TacOps states clearly, on page 222, "Unless specifically noted otherwise on the Sensor Range Table, no objects (hills, building, trees and so on) block sensors."
The mentioned Sensor Range Table (also on page 222 of TacOps) lists the effects for "Castles Brian or Hill Hex" under the heading "Additional Effects (All Sensors except Seismic)" as "If along LOS, all sensors completely blocked".
Moreover, the same effect ("If along LOS, all sensors completely blocked") is given for "Building Hex" under the heading "Additional Effects (Radar Only)" & for "Castles Brian Hex" under the heading "Additional Effects (IR/Heat Sensor/Radar only)".
Additionally, page 223 of TacOps states, "If magscan sensors are being used, any unit (except conventional foot and jump infantry) within range is spotted regardless of LOS, unless a hill or building blocks LOS, in which case the sensor cannot detect the target unit."

So, we know that (in BattleTech) buildings (including both normal buildings & Castles Brian) and hills will block a 'Mech's radar, IR sensors, and magscan sensors, but that these things will NOT affect a 'Mech's seismic sensors.
(Seismic sensors, however, cannot detect - or be used by - airborne units (e.g. aircraft in flight) or submerged units not touching the floor of the body of water (e.g. submerged submarines).)

[Lynx7725]

Y'know, while we are on the subject of sensors, why is it that in an advanced HUD, we have to switch modes to see different sensors? Why not have overlays or callouts for out-of-ordinary sensor inputs? MAD can flag high metal concentration up for attention, IR can flag overly warm bodies, etc., Seismic can put markers up, all on one HUD.

[Gladewolf]

blech, reread, going to bed. looks fine.

Edited by Gladewolf, 03 March 2015 - 12:19 AM.

[Xetelian]

I'd flip the chart and give lights the best sensor range and enhance their role.

[Dino Might]

Lynx7725, on 02 March 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

I don't agree to using tonnage as a measure. In theory it works well, in practice a stepped approached based on tonnage means lights would get into your rear lines very quickly. 500~600m can be covered by a light exceedingly fast, and light rushes would be hard to address.

Nonetheless, I feel that there is merit to this idea, but we can change it to be more along weight class, as suggested by some others. 800/ 775/ 750/ 725, perhaps, but the specifics can be tweaked. We can also take a page out of Heavy Gear's rules by having each mech have a signature stat, with quirks to adjust that up and down as fit; this quirk will then further modify the detection radius.

This can also help to address the ECM "Jesus Box" problem, by turning ECM into a "signature reduction" system within its effective radius, rather than a blanket "NOTHING HERE, MOVE ALONG".

So for example, if a Raven would normally be detected at 725m, a quirk can reduce this by 50m to 675m, then ECM further enhance the quirk by reducing detection by say 150m, which result to targetable only at 425m... which is VERY close, but still reasonably workable. Meanwhile, the accompanying King Crab, being an Assault, is targetable at 800m, and with ECM support, reduces to 650m. ECM can then be "stackable", which means two Ravens covering each other and the King Crab will mean the Crab is detectable at 500m, while the Ravens will only be targetable at 275m.

The numbers need to be tweaked, but the idea is fine. 425m for a light is not close, unless you have ER LL, which most lights don't. At 425m, most lights can't even do damage to enemy mechs. I'm getting the sense there will be lots of arguing over numbers (assaults wanting lights to be detectable well outside effective range for anything they pack, lights wanting lights to be detectable well inside their effective range (i.e., not at all)). I think there's a happy medium here. Personally, I wouldn't balk at any reduction, but consider how often you see lights outside of 425m. It's fairly rare, so this number wouldn't really change very much in the game, and I guess that's what you're getting at. I agree it would certainly add to the scouting possibilities for lights while not improving their combat efficiency at all. So, I might be coming around on this number when I think of it that way...

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 02 March 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Lets see...Falcon 4.0. Arma 3. Any Vietnam or Modern Era flight or tank sim. Thats how it works.

The whole idea of the little paper doll, red squares, 'hitting t' is an invention of Activision developers in the 90s. It has nothing to do with the table top or how its abstracting its "reality".

In BattleTech I check off damage from a paper doll (the Mech Sheet) Activision only carried it into the video game from TT.

[Egomane]

Mercules, on 02 March 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

Light mechs could actually scout... that would be a bad thing for the game? I don't understand why.

I'd like to be able fight a light mech like any other mech on the map, independent of the weapons I have loaded. Reducing the range at which a light can be detected will reduce the effectiveness of LRMs and is therfore a nerf to that already weak weapon system. A light mech has it's speed and maneuvarability to avoid my fire. They don't need a crutch!

The notion that light mechs are used to scout, or that they are the ones that need to scout, is as false as the notion that they are weak.

By the way, I am best in lights and assaults and I am bad in mediums and heavies. So I know what I am talking about, when I say they don't need that.

Edited by Egomane, 03 March 2015 - 03:11 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Lynx7725, on 03 March 2015 - 12:02 AM, said:

Y'know, while we are on the subject of sensors, why is it that in an advanced HUD, we have to switch modes to see different sensors? Why not have overlays or callouts for out-of-ordinary sensor inputs? MAD can flag high metal concentration up for attention, IR can flag overly warm bodies, etc., Seismic can put markers up, all on one HUD.

As far as the lore is concerned, they could do just that (and some 'Mechs are set up to do just that) but most 'Mechs don't in order to avoid overwhelming the MechWarrior with data.
So, instead, they use either MFDs to switch between dedicated sensor views or dedicated single-mode displays in the cockpit together with a generic HUD in the neurohelmet.

"Despite this broad range of sensor types, MechWarriors are not deluged with raw data. Sophisticated computers streamline, interpret and prioritize this information, so that by the time the warrior gets the info, it appears as simple visual cues on the usual cockpit displays or the warrior's own neurohelmet heads-up display (HUD)." - TechManual, pg. 39

"In the Inner Sphere, there has been a cycle of cockpit layouts that alternate between sets of multi-function displays and programmable controls, and fixed displays with single-function switches. Each of these approaches has its proponents. Fixed cockpits have minor advantages in damage tolerance, since one blown control won't take out a suite of functions, and - supposedly - reflex speed for the MechWarriors. There's no hesitation in finding the switch to activate punching mode if you (and your father before you, and your grandfather before him) have been using the same switch for years." - TechManual, pg. 39

"As for audio cues, during the Succession Wars, BattleMechs generally just had a set of simple alarms, like missile alerts, hostile radars, and so on. Modern neurohelmets incorporate speakers that generate 3-D alarms to help a MechWarrior quickly locate an external threat." - TechManual, pg. 41

[Mercules]

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

I'd like to be able fight a light mech like any other mech on the map, independent of the weapons I have loaded. Reducing the range at which a light can be detected will reduce the effectiveness of LRMs and is therfore a nerf to that already weak weapon system. A light mech has it's speed and maneuvarability to avoid my fire. They don't need a crutch!

1. It will not Nerf LRMs. Do you always fire upon targets you specifically pick out with LoS? If not then you understand that LRMs let you hit targets you are not personally in LoS or targeting range of which means LRMs will still be able to hit lights right out to their maximum range assuming there is someone else a bit closer to them than you who targets them.

2. <10% of the mechs represented waiting in the queue shows that they need something. Most likely they need a purpose because most of what I can do in a Light I can also do in a fairly fast medium/heavy. Exceptions would be the Firestarter... which everyone complains is a bit too good for a light. I can't typically mount that amount of light energy weapons, move that fast with JJs, and have that good of hitboxes in a medium... or any other light.

3. You are correct LRMs are not a huge threat to Lights even as is. They don't get THAT much worse against them without target lock. Nor do direct fire weapons. What does happen is that fewer people will NOTICE the light so they won't instantly draw 3 PPC, 2 Gauss, and a dozen laser strikes with laughable LRMs trailing in after the fact.

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

The notion that light mechs are used to scout, or that they are the ones that need to scout, is as false as the notion that they are weak.

"In 2463 Coventry Metal Works (then known as Coventry Defense Conglomerate) introduced their second BattleMech, the COM-1A Commando. Created for the Lyran Commonwealth Armed Forces and one of the first 'Mechs ever designed for reconnaissance..."

"The Raven's job is first and foremost to provide electronic warfare and countermeasure support to other units; any mission in which the 'Mech is forced into a combat role is seen as a failure."

"The Spider was the first BattleMech produced by Newhart Industries and designed as a light reconnaissance and attack 'Mech to be used by Star League Defense Force Special Operations forces such as the Blackhearts."

No, not all of them were "scouts" but about half of the IS ones were considered reconnaissance mechs and half strikers/guerrilla.

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

By the way, I am best in lights and assaults and I am bad in mediums and heavies. So I know what I am talking about, when I say they don't need that.

BTW, I am best in Lights and Mediums, do okay in Heavies, and "Eh" in most Assaults. We both know what we are talking about so please don't pull the card implying others might know less. Lights in general are forced into a combat role. I know most of it is the maps, but the other part is that any light off on their own that ends up detected is -ineffective-. In return lights can't know where the enemy is because if they peek to look the enemy can instantly see them if they are paying the least bit of attention because "beep! (hey look for a red triangle)"

[Strum Wealh]

Jman5, on 02 March 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

Does it make sense to you that a 20 ton locust should be detected at the same range as a 100 ton direwolf? Do you think it is easier or harder to play the role of a scout if you can be detected at the same range as most other mechs on the battlefield?

I think tonnage should play into radar detection range to give smaller mechs the ability to get in closer without lighting up on everyone's radar. Here is an example



Thoughts?

Edit: To clear up a little confusion, these are values for initial targeting only. Currently it's set at 800 meters for everything. Transmitting targeting data to all your teammates regardless of how far away they are still works the same as before. This is designed to let you get a little closer before that initial targeting of an untargeted mech can happen.

If we're talking "just radar" (rather than, as indicated by the lore, the simultaneous use of multiple active and passive sensors), then the mass of the 'Mech has little to do with detectability.
Far more important than mass (which is actually only a factor insofar as it relates to physical dimensions) in determining radar cross section ("RCS") is geometry/shape and materials used.

As we already know that standard & Ferro-Fiberous 'Mech armors are not radar-absorbent to any significant degree (since we already know what it's made of, and because radar-absorbancy is the purview of Stealth Armor), the materials aspect is a non-issue.

That leaves the geometry aspect... and in that aspect, most BattleMechs would not fare all that well.
Consider, for example, the humble Commando:


Notice the large number of broad, (generally) flat, (generally) vertical, (mostly) ferrous surfaces - all of those would be excellent reflectors of radio energy (e.g. "radar waves"), which would give the the Commando a very large RCS.

By contrast, a 'Mech that featured far more angular surfaces (see the F-117 and its predecessor, the "Hopeless Diamond") or far more rounded surfaces (see the B-2) would have a smaller RCS, even if it were substantially larger than the Commando.
To illustrate the point, here are the RCSs of several different aircraft:

Notice how, for example, the B-1 has a smaller RCS than all of the (much smaller) fighter aircraft above it, and how the MIG-29 has a slightly smaller RCS than the significantly-physically-smaller MIG-21 & only half the RCS than the only-slightly-larger F-4.

And, remember, all of that is "just radar".
We know from the lore that 'Mechs make use of a host of different sensor types; TechManual states, on page 39, "Thermal imaging, light amplification, radar and magnetic anomaly sensors are all among the primary sensors used by BattleMechs, supplemented by seismic sensors, motion detectors, chemical analyzers and a multitude of others."
So, we know that 'Mechs use a variety of sensor types beyond radar... and, for most of those named, the 'Mech's mass is a non-issue & its physical size would have a limited (if any) effect with regard to detectability.

In fact, the only sensor type affected by mass in BattleTech is magscan - and that effect only occurs in Assault 'Mechs and larger vehicles, while anything between 20 tons and 75 tons is unaffected.

• "When using magscan sensors, the larger a unit is, the more easily it can be detected. For any unit from 80 to 100 tons, the range of the sensor is expanded for that unit(s) alone by 1 hex (as described above for infrared sensors). For any unit from 101 to 1,000 tons, the range of the sensor is expanded for that unit(s) alone by 2 hexes. For any Large Craft or Large Naval Vessel, the range of the sensor is expanded for that unit(s) alone by 3 hexes."
  
• "Units that weigh less than 20 tons cannot be detected by a magscan sensor, including all infantry."

So, even then, an Assault 'Mech might be detected at 930 meters (31 hexes) instead of 900 meters (30 hexes) for Light, Medium, and Heavy 'Mechs.

So, having all of the 'Mechs have an identical "overall sensor profile" (and corresponding identical overall detection range) makes some sense, and there is no need to change the detection mechanic for MWO to something that wouldn't even be a factor for most of the sensor types anyway.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 03 March 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mercules, on 02 March 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

...

Then you haven't really played BT, not the way it should be played. Double Blind took forever back in the day with a 3rd party helping out, but it was the most fun way to play.

MegaMek is completely based off TT rules. Some of the rules it has are "optional" TT rules but they all come from the TT originally.

Um... I play BT how it was originally released.

The people I play with tend not to want to use a lot of the later rules.

Though I grant you at some point WhizKids or whomever else held the IR for BattleTech did some work to add additional rule sets. Additional rule sets, and the books used to distribute them, are great sources of income for paper based games like this (as D&D figured out a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago).

Quote

This isn't true. If part of a mech's should pokes out from cover the red triangle can appear over it's head. To do ANYTHING, fire or scout more of the mech needs to poke out. Now if the pilot is careful and under ECM they can poke enough out that a casual scan will miss them, maybe even an unzoomed look, but with the red triangle popping up all the time there is no "scouting" going on without ECM... but ECM is a waste when scouting as it could be used to protect your whole team. So... why scout?

Not always necessarily true. The most skilled light pilots I've played with have been able to be unseen for most of a match, simply utilizing the "F4" key at appropriate times...

If your aim is to take a majority of the 'skill' required in piloting a light "well" out of the game, this certainly seems like a way to do it.

Quote

Light mechs could actually scout... that would be a bad thing for the game? I don't understand why.

They can now, it just requires more skill and patience than most people are willing learn/practice.

[badaa]

an umbrella doesn't change size if u hand it to a bigger person

[Mercules]

Dimento Graven, on 03 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Um... I play BT how it was originally released.

The people I play with tend not to want to use a lot of the later rules.

Shame, as I stated it improves the game. Without Double Blind rules you can't set up "ambushes" or really flanking maneuvers. It's basically "Pray for initiative and calculate how to get a better to hit number on your target than your opponent will have trying to hit you." With Double Blind I spend a lot of time thinking, planning, and maneuvering. Without it I spend a lot of time doing math and calculating odds.

Dimento Graven, on 03 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Though I grant you at some point WhizKids or whomever else held the IR for BattleTech did some work to add additional rule sets. Additional rule sets, and the books used to distribute them, are great sources of income for paper based games like this (as D&D figured out a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago).

It wasn't WhizKids... they about ruined the game and made a "clickbase" farce of it.

Dimento Graven, on 03 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Not always necessarily true. The most skilled light pilots I've played with have been able to be unseen for most of a match, simply utilizing the "F4" key at appropriate times...

3rd Person Perspective is not a skill... it should not exist in Mechwarrior. Nor does it allow for target locks that gather actual information such as condition of mechs. You can do 3PP one better by target locking and dodging and actually getting readouts and holding locks but you have to alert the enemy you are there and that is not really "scouting". Notice in the lore most reconnaissance and "scout" mechs have sensor systems said to be enhanced, excellent, improved, advanced, and such terms. That means they actually find mechs with sensors, aka lock on.

Dimento Graven, on 03 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

If your aim is to take a majority of the 'skill' required in piloting a light "well" out of the game, this certainly seems like a way to do it.

Again, 3PP is not a "skill" it is a legal wall hack put in because IGP insisted the game appeal to the "masses".

Dimento Graven, on 03 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

They can now, it just requires more skill and patience than most people are willing learn/practice.

Voice Coms have helped out, but all you can do with the scouting you described is give people a rough idea of troop movement, not what weaponry they have. It's important to know that the Jagger is carrying 2 AC20s so that your team takes it out at range and doesn't get ambushed close in. It's good to know if that Hunchback is a 4G or 4P which you can't always make out from the side or behind without a lock.


In order to gather information from the enemy I have to expose myself enough to get locks and thus be locked in turn, or use ECM which is much better served covering the team so that some OTHER scout can't gather info on them and will be vulnerable in return as we can lock them.


With the size of the maps, someone in the center of the smaller ones can basically lock a light on the outer edges and that alerts the whole team quickly and easily. With this a light might be able to break off from the team without lowering his team's effectiveness. As it is he is better adding to the deathball and possibly providing ECM escort. Why play a fast and maneuverable mech that can be one shot if you are tied to some plodding monster that is going 64kph? Why not just play something that goes 70-80 KPH but has more firepower?

The speed of the lights is for flanking, maneuvering, and scouting. When the enemy can spot you instantly from any reasonable range because of a sensor contact a lot of that becomes a lot less viable.

[Tuefel Hunden]

What you really have to ask yourself is why such an advanced fighting machine only has forward looking radar?

[EGG]

I totally support this, it gets us another step towards bringing "information warfare" into the game, and gives lights a leg-up that they currently need.

Currently if you're playing a non-ECM light, you have to plan your game around keeping that red dorito off your head until such time as a big brawl breaks out.