Jump to content

So 4 Clan Getting Quirked Are!


160 replies to this topic

#141 Felio

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 1,721 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 01:25 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 04 March 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

But, the Gargoyle and Ice Ferret,
they arnt too good, but i would think the WarHawk and Nova are worse,
(this statement is that i feel Wave1 should get looked at before Wave2)


I'd agree with this, for sure.

I have to wonder if the Nova and Warhawk are played more simply because more people own them by virtue of Clan Wave 1 selling much better than Wave 2. Obviously no sale numbers have been released, but I certainly get the impression it's true.

#142 Ovion

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Vicious
  • The Vicious
  • 3,182 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 01:26 PM

Here's the thing, at the end of the day, it's quirked first.

Which means there's more to come.
Had to pick the first ones somehow, and least played is as good as any.

#143 Brody319

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ominous
  • The Ominous
  • 6,273 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 01:26 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 05 March 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:


And yet if the Gargoyle had JJs, I'd probably play it over the Victor right now.


I wouldn't even less space for weapons.

#144 Asyres

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 433 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 01:48 PM

View PostFelio, on 05 March 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:


I'd agree with this, for sure.

I have to wonder if the Nova and Warhawk are played more simply because more people own them by virtue of Clan Wave 1 selling much better than Wave 2. Obviously no sale numbers have been released, but I certainly get the impression it's true.


It depends entirely on what the metrics of 'use' are. If it's frequency of drops with X mech vs. total drops, you might be right. If it's frequency of drops with X mech vs. total drops from owners of that mech (which is a more sensible metric), you'd be wrong.

Anyway, the Warhawk is actually usable as an assault - if you math out the firepower, it's comparable to other 85t assaults such as the Stalker, but suffers from worse hitboxes and lower hardpoints. It needs some work, sure, but what it needs is some minor energy weapon quirks and some ST structure.

The Gargoyle... don't get me wrong, I love it's stupid, bee-stung face, but it's really, really bad. It really has nothing going for it - it's enormous (with okay to poor hitboxes), it has appallingly small amounts of pod space, and despite being 'fast,' it moves like an asthmatic hippopotamus. The only reason it works at all is access to large numbers of energy slots, which lets you spam the highly effective Clan small energy weapons. When you being a Gargoyle to a match, you've used 80t or an assault slot on a mech that can do the work of a 50-55t medium. Heck, if I could bring a Gargle to a match as a 50t Clan medium, I would still take a Stormcrow over it.

#145 Keeshu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • 470 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 02:28 PM

Holy carp 8 pages. I want to read it all but I don't have the time. So i'll just say my opinion.

Adder - Kit Fox and adder are very similar, Kit Fox has a ton of utility, but Adder is just a little better with it's damage/armor. So I'm okay for there to be a little more distinction between the two.

Gargoyle - Yeah it needs quirks. Speed of a heavy, Fire power of a medium.

Summoner - Speed quirks not enough? I wouldn't know anything about the summoner, haven't gotten around to it. Seems fine to me with the right builds.

Ice Ferret - I'm underwhelmed by it's firepower, and I've never really feared these guys so I agree here too.



As for other things people have suggested:
Nova - I've been dominating with this thing lately. It's just so fun to alpha the 12 er Medium lasers to assassinate people (but waiting half a second before firing the other 6 lasers of course to avoid ghost heat), and use 4 machineguns when waiting to cooldown.

Mist Lynx - Same deal as Ice ferret from what I've seen.However I fear this thing more because it has jumpjets, and jumpjets + speed = cannot run away from. However, it doesn't really have very good weapons, so it'll probably need some quirks.

Kit Fox - It kinda has quirks with it's jumpjets, ecm, triple ams and such. but a tiny buff wouldn't hurt it. But if it's untouched you won't hear me complain.


Everything else doesn't need more quirks. (though I always constantly worry about Mad Dog getting a nerfed even though the Timby will probably always be superior to it..... I love my missiles!).

#146 Mcgral18

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 17,987 posts
  • LocationSnow

Posted 05 March 2015 - 02:52 PM

View PostSoy, on 05 March 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:


Absolutely.

When I realized that it's not tart heyday and that everyone sits around stroking harbl behind a rock for 10 mins before the actual engagement opens up, hell yes 300m is enough.

Gotta get over the fear of range. Even I had trouble/insecurity with it for about 2 weeks in my build. Hell, fights turn into facehumping all the time. It's about going unchecked and using the mobility of the mech to position correctly.

The more I play the mech the more I stare at Seismic/map only and never the actual game screen unless it's to pull a Dorito, or place a shot. I crutch Seismic like never before, if you saw me you'd think I was narcoleptic for how many bunny hops to dead stops I do just to check it every few secs/meters.

Remember I played poptart sniper so I used to play from a zillion meters out. If I can return after 18 months and sit down and wreck in a mech that shoots only to 380m, then you know it's fine. Really.

PS - it's 10 cuz 10xSPL = same dmg as 12xERSL btw, less duration, faster cycle, range isn't important, it's recycle time and exposure time (specifically tarting exp)... double alpha is just below shutdown too at 10.

PPS - you said "at 400m?" Lets make one thing clear - if anyone has trouble closing ~100meters of range, they need to stop playin like the Nova, learn to soak in something tankier, get comfy, come back, and try again...


I know how to use the Nova; after 430 drops, it's sitting at a K/d of 3.95. Perhaps not up to your Lordly standards, but perfectly acceptable.

Should I shame myself by using this? Yes, I might as well:
http://mwomercs.com/...t=201410chassis


I'm no stranger to the chassis. I also have no illusions of it being great. 120% heat ERMLs, 150% heat SPLs, ERSLs and MPLs. The 10% heat quirks offset those slightly, and they did receive some buffs for the heat nerfs. MPLs would be better off with the 4 heat and less damage, on top of losing some range. Smalls were adequately buffed in range or damage.

Dealing 11.35 damage per arm with the 5 SPLs at 300M, or dealing 20 damage with 6 ERSLs is significant enough. Where the SPLs deal nothing at 370M, the 6 ERSLs still deal 10 damage per arm.
That's not insignificant.

It allows you to stay near the ever important cover.


There's also the matter of heatsinks. My preferred ERSL build mounts 13 ERSLs (I don't like stripping armour, or leaving a half ton free) 21 DHS, AP and a TC1.
NVA-13 ERSL 21DHS

I could drop the LAA and AP for another DHS on one arm, but the actuation is nice.


I'll assume your build is something similar to this:
NVA-10SPL 18 DHS
Though, stripping a half ton somewhere for 19 DHS?

Now, ghost heat is much better on SPLs; since there's both fewer lasers and also less of a multiplier. 55% heat for a 60 damage alpha. Not bad, on par with most LOLpha's at that damage, although at a third of the range.

~15% heat per arm VS 20% heat per arm, more for range, almost worth it.


I guess that is acceptable. Still, the range isn't insignificant. PUGs don't push.

Anyhow, do you remember that picture I posted earlier, the 21% Nova? Here's how that ended:
Posted Image

That's with being red in nearly all components, using those 80 meters bonus on the ERSLs has it's benefits.

Of course, simply using 6 ERMLs also has it's benefits. Greater alpha, twice the effective range, 40% heat per alpha. A bit worse up close of course, but that one mounts MGs without any sacrifice. Much more easily neutered, though.



The Hunch got 40% more IS+A, a full 30, so if we get no additional weapon quirks, 15-20 structure per arm should suffice. An additional LOLpha to remove it.

#147 Soy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,689 posts
  • Locationtrue Lord system

Posted 05 March 2015 - 02:59 PM

Nice K:D, much better than mine, still shakin rust off (isolated solo pub play to discipline myself before grouping again). I don't have that many rounds yet. So you probably even have a better comfort level with it than me. Awesome tourny score, but I imagine it wasn't the most competitive bracket., eh...

I run a 12 SL build - it's good, but it requires more burn time and exposure time. Add the cycle time, you can't do 2 full alphas in one tart (which is rare but still, nice benchmark for 'wtf' moves).

I don't like that caP and TC1 on yours, I'd just pump it into straight DHS or even a CT AMS w/ half a ton of ammo on the 'S' CT variant, but I definitely know where you're coming from with that, conceptually and in practice. Preference, I'm sure. ;)

Comparing it to Hunchback is definitely the correct way to go about it, not comparing it to Trinity or Ferret, good job there as well. That's exactly what it is. A Clan Hunchback, cept not a shoulder boat, symmetrical arm sworder.

I just run straight max armor max DHS and 10. Basically my logic is 10CPL is same dmg as 12 SL, less heat... it's just about the cooldown that things hinge on... Another one I've been working on is just quad MLs in each hand for 8 total, rest DHS.

I'm not the greatest aimer, I never was (thanks old PPC projectile speed), but in terms of movement and soaking, fairly certain I'm close to peerless... that's what carries me through Nova. Maybe for you it's other way around, or maybe for other players, I dunno. Of course I still have rounds where I lose an arm at 12:00, but I've been ironing that out (mostly has to do with patience for such a short ranger).

In my opinion, if anything should be done to Nova it's just scale it down like, ~10%..? Otherwise I don't see a problem with it. I'm sure quirks will take it to some other place perhaps a bit more specialized, or perhaps not and just overall tweaks.

Great post Mc. If you want lets pair up sometime and run trains on an enemy team, I'd like to record something like that. :)

Edited by Soy, 05 March 2015 - 03:36 PM.


#148 Fate 6

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,466 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 03:11 PM

View PostFupDup, on 04 March 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

The MLX is worse than the ADR, but I think they chose the ADR because of the recent challenge giving them away to people...

Adder is MUCH worse than the MLX. At least the MLX can run around being a useful harasser

#149 Brody319

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ominous
  • The Ominous
  • 6,273 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 03:23 PM

View PostFate 6, on 05 March 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

Adder is MUCH worse than the MLX. At least the MLX can run around being a useful harasser


least the Adder can go a full game without losing every weapon and basically just smashing itself into enemies hoping that they kill someone.

#150 MauttyKoray

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,831 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 03:29 PM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 05 March 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:


The Warhawk is my most played clan mech, and the Banshee is my most played mech.. the Warhawk doesnt even come close to comparing to the Banshee, (or Battlemasters or stalkers tbh)

However the Warhawk is still decent, id say it comes in 5th best at the moment, id put them in this order personally (taking their tonnage into account):

1) Stormcrow
2) Timberwolf
3) Dire Wolf
4) Hellbringer
5) Warhawk
6) Mad Dog
7) Kit Fox
8) Summoner
9) Nova
10) Adder
11) Ice Ferret
12) Mist Lynx
13) Gargoyle

Note that based on what we know now, I think Wave III will bump the Warhawk down 3 spots at least, with only the Gladiator being below it. And even that will be close i think.

Its funny cause I'd rank the adder above the kit fox and the nova. Summoner isn't in a 'great' place but as said, its cause of the jumpjets being absolutely horrid. Its supposed to jump like a medium, but then again even mediums are screwed when it comes to JJs.

#151 Ultimax

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 6,979 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 03:39 PM

View PostBrody319, on 05 March 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

I wouldn't even less space for weapons.


You only need 1 ton.

Clan tech also has "bonus" tonnage already built in.

The Gargoyle also has 20+6 tons of effective load with it's pre-loaded DH that it's going to need anyway because it is primarily an energy mech.

It's an energy based mech with a crapton of hardpoints & access to the best lasers in the game (clan tech) in a meta that is very, very laser slanted.

Most people playing XL brawling Victors go for large engines anyway, 365xl is a good target.



At some point people need to stop pretending that things like a big Engine and Locked DHS are completely meaningless.

Is 400 too big? Probably.

I wouldn't have gone lower than 350 anyway, and more likely a 375.

#152 Escef

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 8,530 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationNew England

Posted 05 March 2015 - 05:20 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 05 March 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

I'd personally want to do a Gargles vs Warhawk showdown.

I'm sure it's the crazy in me talking, but personally I'd like to make that attempt of hilarity.


Given my experiences running fast Battlemasters, that'd be rough. With both mechs fresh, 1v1, it comes down to loadouts, pilot skill, and who sees who first and at what range. Assuming equal pilots and builds that aren't gimped for the fight conditions, I'd say the Warhawk has the edge, the speed difference isn't large enough to let the Gargoyle triumph over the Warhawk's greater firepower.

#153 Mcgral18

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 17,987 posts
  • LocationSnow

Posted 05 March 2015 - 06:42 PM

View PostSoy, on 05 March 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:


Great post Mc. If you want lets pair up sometime and run trains on an enemy team, I'd like to record something like that. :)


Quote

Awesome tourny score, but I imagine it wasn't the most competitive bracket., eh...

There was exactly one mech it beat: the Vindicator. Beaten by the Lolcust and Commando both.
It didn't take too long to get, the Banshee was what I was really trying for. Less successful.



Quote

I run a 12 SL build - it's good, but it requires more burn time and exposure time. Add the cycle time, you can't do 2 full alphas in one tart (which is rare but still, nice benchmark for 'wtf' moves).


Well, you can, but it's alot riskier(higher). Also impossible to alpha strike, unlike the 10 SPLs.



Quote

I don't like that caP and TC1 on yours, I'd just pump it into straight DHS or even a CT AMS w/ half a ton of ammo on the 'S' CT variant, but I definitely know where you're coming from with that, conceptually and in practice. Preference, I'm sure. ;)


cAP is absolutely just tonnage filler; not a first choice but all that I felt like taking. TC1 I consider mandatory. A few extra meters and the extra crit chance, which translates to a bit more damage to the Internal Structure.
I avoid AMS for the most part.



Quote

I just run straight max armor max DHS and 10. Basically my logic is 10CPL is same dmg as 12 SL, less heat... it's just about the cooldown that things hinge on... Another one I've been working on is just quad MLs in each hand for 8 total, rest DHS.


While 6 is risky, I think it would be more efficient. 42 alpha to 455M with that TC1. 20ish DHS keep it around a 40% alpha. Sword and board as well.
I used the 10 SPL+ERSL one, pretty good.



Quote

In my opinion, if anything should be done to Nova it's just scale it down like, ~10%..? Otherwise I don't see a problem with it. I'm sure quirks will take it to some other place perhaps a bit more specialized, or perhaps not and just overall tweaks.


Scale is likely never going to be touched. It's a lot of work; almost like making the mech all over again.
Armour and structure is the best you could hope for, really.





Quote


Great post Mc. If you want lets pair up sometime and run trains on an enemy team, I'd like to record something like that. :)


I guess we could. Add me in game if you want to. I do still enjoy using the Nova, but it can be infuriating.

#154 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,870 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 05 March 2015 - 06:54 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 05 March 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

Scale is likely never going to be touched. It's a lot of work; almost like making the mech all over again.
Armour and structure is the best you could hope for, really.

It shouldn't, I could scale both the rig and the mech in a few seconds with 3ds Max (groups make this a simple task). Textures wouldn't be touched since they are the same size regardless of the mech's size (Locust and Atlas both have 1024x1024 to work with on the diffuse texture). If anything the only thing that should need to be redone is animations which is probably where the problem is.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 05 March 2015 - 07:01 PM.


#155 Mcgral18

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 17,987 posts
  • LocationSnow

Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:08 PM

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 05 March 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

It shouldn't, I could scale both the rig and the mech in a few seconds with 3ds Max (groups make this a simple task). Textures wouldn't be touched since they are the same size regardless of the mech's size (Locust and Atlas both have 1024x1024 to work with on the diffuse texture). If anything the only thing that should need to be redone is animations which is probably where the problem is.


When it was mentioned last, it was the details like ladders and hatches which would have to be applied manually.

Paraphrased. Maybe falsely.

#156 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,870 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:17 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 05 March 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:


When it was mentioned last, it was the details like ladders and hatches which would have to be applied manually.

Paraphrased. Maybe falsely.

If so, they are making it way more difficult than it should be. It has been a while but I'm pretty sure groups maintain the object's original pivot points (local origins) once you break them, as the pivot points are what causes things to not align properly with scaling and rotation.

#157 Wintersdark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,375 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationCalgary, AB

Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:32 PM

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 05 March 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

It shouldn't, I could scale both the rig and the mech in a few seconds with 3ds Max (groups make this a simple task). Textures wouldn't be touched since they are the same size regardless of the mech's size (Locust and Atlas both have 1024x1024 to work with on the diffuse texture). If anything the only thing that should need to be redone is animations which is probably where the problem is.

I understand how scaling normally works for 3D models, but MWO's situation isn't normal.

If I remember correctly - and this was a discussion we had with Those In Power maybe two years ago, it's been a while - scaling the model itself is trivial. However, the "doo dads" are not attached in a normal way and don't scale properly with them, and more importantly the hitboxes don't. Not the collision mesh, but the individual hitboxes which determine where you hit the mech.

Regardless, for whatever reason they did things the way they did (and I'll assume they had a reason why, because basic modelling isn't rocket science), it's NOT just a matter of grouping things and rolling the old mouse wheel.

#158 FupDup

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 26,888 posts
  • LocationThe Keeper of Memes

Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:35 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 05 March 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

I understand how scaling normally works for 3D models, but MWO's situation isn't normal.

If I remember correctly - and this was a discussion we had with Those In Power maybe two years ago, it's been a while - scaling the model itself is trivial. However, the "doo dads" are not attached in a normal way and don't scale properly with them, and more importantly the hitboxes don't. Not the collision mesh, but the individual hitboxes which determine where you hit the mech.

Regardless, for whatever reason they did things the way they did (and I'll assume they had a reason why, because basic modelling isn't rocket science), it's NOT just a matter of grouping things and rolling the old mouse wheel.

I'd argue that very few people would care about the little "doodads" like ladders and handles and stuff...only super-ultra-mega OCD people would even notice. Like, maybe three or four people total? That one aspect is a non-issue.

#159 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,870 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:39 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 05 March 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

I understand how scaling normally works for 3D models, but MWO's situation isn't normal.

If I remember correctly - and this was a discussion we had with Those In Power maybe two years ago, it's been a while - scaling the model itself is trivial. However, the "doo dads" are not attached in a normal way and don't scale properly with them, and more importantly the hitboxes don't. Not the collision mesh, but the individual hitboxes which determine where you hit the mech.

Regardless, for whatever reason they did things the way they did (and I'll assume they had a reason why, because basic modelling isn't rocket science), it's NOT just a matter of grouping things and rolling the old mouse wheel.

That's because the "doo dads" have local pivots that aren't the same as the main meshes. When you group them up, they have 'share' one pivot rather than several, which means all those rotate around the single pivot point rather than their own local pivots. Hitboxes are the same way, since hitboxes are always more primitive than the Mech itself, it is a low poly of the low poly.

All that ends up mattering is your point of origin that you are scaling or rotating from, because matrices and stuff.

#160 Ace Selin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,534 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:02 PM

The Warhawk is actually a pretty good fire support mech and the Nova is actually a really good medium playing to its hit run strength. My Nova gets me more kills than most other IS medium i play (other than Shawk)





3 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 3 guests, 0 anonymous users