93 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Blue Boutique, on 06 March 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but the the waist high energy hardpoint and one single missile means that the Quickdraw has the advantage with the chest high energy and missle hardpoints.

Since we don't know where the second ST hardpoints are on two of the Hopper variants, we don't know that. And a lot will come down to mobility and hitboxes.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Blue Boutique, on 06 March 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but the the waist high energy hardpoint and one single missile means that the Quickdraw has the advantage with the chest high energy and missle hardpoints.

The Hopper will have a variant with 8 Energy, at least two high up, and more tonnage to play with so no, the Quickdraw will be obsolete. No one cares about the missile hardpoints.

Bishop Steiner, on 06 March 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

except that Thunderbolts are still in actual practice, not smurfywarrioring, generally better mechs even being slower, and GaussJagers, etc.

Thunderbolts are great mechs, with quirks I still find them on par with some of the Clan heavies (I still like my 3 LL-Gauss 5S). Jagers however I don't, even the Gauss Jagers, they either go too slow to move effectively, or they are too squishy.

[Blue Boutique]

WM Quicksilver, on 06 March 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

The Hopper will have a variant with 8 Energy, at least two high up, and more tonnage to play with so no, the Quickdraw will be obsolete. No one cares about the missile hardpoints.

Hey PGI, here's an event idea here, Grasshopper vs Quickdraw!

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 06 March 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

The Hopper will have a variant with 8 Energy, at least two high up, and more tonnage to play with so no, the Quickdraw will be obsolete. No one cares about the missile hardpoints.


Thunderbolts are great mechs, with quirks I still find them on par with some of the Clan heavies (I still like my 3 LL-Gauss 5S). Jagers however I don't, even the Gauss Jagers, they either go too slow to move effectively, or they are too squishy.

yet they are always found in force, and usually near the top of the scoreboard each match. It's true they are not super easy mode, but they are in general more effective than Summoners.

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 06 March 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

It's not the he thinks it's super secret Uber Mech, it's that it is better than what the IS has partially thanks to that Clan XL and the power of Clan lasers/gauss.

BURN TEH HEATHENS! YOU KNOW TOO MUCH!!!111!

Quote

Checklist for a decent clan build

• ERMLs or (LPLs if starved for hardpoint)
  
• Gauss or ASRMs
  
• ???
  
• PROFIT!

I might have to kill you for these revelations....

Quote

The clan heavies just have some of the best tonnage/hardpoint/space combinations to abuse this recipe more than the others.

This is my response:

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

The MPLs got the worst from the nerfs. Even more heat (it started at 5 rather than 4) with reduced range, all for 1 point of damage.

Smalls were adequately buffed for their extra heat, not so the MPL.

Presently it has +1 damage, +2 heat, -30M range.

I'd take the range nerf, but remove the heat for the damage.

Clan MPLs are great weapons.

For 6 tons you get
18 heat
24 damage
330m range

Compare to 2x IS LPLs

For 14 tons you get
14 heat
22 damage
365m range


That is a huge tonnage value, competing at a very similar range.

With the 8 tons saved on the build - you can easily absorb the higher heat cost with 8 extra DHS.

Bishop Steiner, on 06 March 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

interesting, isn't it, that you are one of like...5 people on the forums that think Summoners are this super secret Uber Mech? Including most of the Comp Players, and premiere poptarts.

No, you are just being exceedingly obtuse and insist on resorting to straw-manning my arguments.

I have never once said it's a secret uber mech, I've said it competes directly with the majority of IS heavies.

The point being IS heavies are outclassed by Clan heavies, and the Summoner too is outclassed by OTHER CLAN HEAVIES.

The only reason you are blind to that, is because

1: It is your pet mech.
2: You insist on running a bracket build with "bone stock" trappings and 3/4th armor and dislike the more optimized options available to it.



WM Quicksilver has already nailed it. A couple of Thunderbolts and the Dragon 1N are the only IS heavies I would say the Summoner can't compete directly with in their specialty areas (and I think the 5x ASRM 6 SMN build can compete vs. the 5SS for what it's worth).


So again, when you feel it's weak you are comparing it to Hellbringers and Timber Wolves and not the vast majority of IS heavies that are pretty lackluster offerings - mechs that actually trade either Speed and Firepower for STD engines, or trade an sizeable amount of survivability by going XL.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 March 2015 - 12:29 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 06 March 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Clan MPLs are great weapons.

For 6 tons you get
18 heat
24 damage
330m range

Compare to 2x IS LPLs

For 14 tons you get
14 heat
22 damage
365m range


That is a huge tonnage value, competing at a very similar range.

With the 8 tons saved on the build - you can easily absorb the higher heat cost with 8 extra DHS.

I'd prefer the lower heat, so you don't need 20 DHS to use more than 4 lasers.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 06 March 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Clan MPLs are great weapons.

For 6 tons you get
18 heat
24 damage
330m range

Compare to 2x IS LPLs

For 14 tons you get
14 heat
22 damage
365m range


That is a huge tonnage value, competing at a very similar range.

With the 8 tons saved on the build - you can easily absorb the higher heat cost with 8 extra DHS.








No, you are just being exceedingly obtuse and insist on resorting to straw-manning my arguments.

I have never once said it's a secret uber mech, I've said it competes directly with the majority of IS heavies.

The point being IS heavies are outclassed by Clan heavies, and the Summoner too is outclassed by OTHER CLAN HEAVIES.

The only reason you are blind to that, is because

1: It is your pet mech.
2: You insist on running a bracket build with "bone stock" trappings and 3/4th armor and dislike the more optimized options available to it.



WM Quicksilver has already nailed it. A couple of Thunderbolts and the Dragon 1N are the only IS heavies I would say the Summoner can't compete directly with in their specialty areas (and I think the 5x ASRM 6 SMN build can compete vs. the 5SS for what it's worth).


So again, when you feel it's weak you are comparing it to Hellbringers and Timber Wolves and not the vast majority of IS heavies that are pretty lackluster offerings - mechs that actually trade either Speed and Firepower for STD engines, or trade an sizeable amount of survivability by going XL.

actually, that is simply my preferred method to run it, as I have 4 Summoners, I also have my full armored Prime, with more LB ammo, and an SRM6 and ER Small in place of the LRMs, and the other two variant sin which I have run every meta build listed. And found them largely mediocre.


Speaking of strawman fallacies.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

I'd prefer the lower heat, so you don't need 20 DHS to use more than 4 lasers.

Yes, why torture the Hunchback-4P needlessly (sans Ghost Heat)?

You need like ~18 ~17 DHS (a little bit less if you feel confident) to make 4 CERMEDs seem OK for brawls.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 March 2015 - 12:40 PM.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

I'd prefer the lower heat, so you don't need 20 DHS to use more than 4 lasers.

It's a whole 4 extra heat per alpha in my example.

Are you actually saying you can't handle that without cranking up to 20 DHS?




4 CERMLAS 28 damage, 24 heat, 8 tons
6 MLAS 30 damage, 24 heat, 12 tons

4 CMPLS 32 damage, 24 heat, 8 tons
5 MPLs 30 damage, 20 heat, 10 tons
3 IS LPL 33 damage, 21 heat, 21 tons



You can run all of those comparative loadouts with the same number of DHS an IS mech would need.

Bishop Steiner, on 06 March 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

actually, that is simply my preferred method to run it, as I have 4 Summoners, I also have my full armored Prime, with more LB ammo, and an SRM6 and ER Small in place of the LRMs, and the other two variant sin which I have run every meta build listed. And found them largely mediocre.


Speaking of strawman fallacies.

Thumbs up on skipping the actual point I was making, good job dude.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 06 March 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

It's a whole 4 extra heat per alpha in my example.

Are you actually saying you can't handle that without cranking up to 20 DHS?




4 CERMLAS 28 damage, 24 heat, 8 tons
6 MLAS 30 damage, 24 heat, 12 tons

4 CMPLS 32 damage, 24 heat, 8 tons
5 MPLs 30 damage, 20 heat, 10 tons
3 IS LPL 33 damage, 21 heat, 21 tons



You can run all of those comparative loadouts with the same number of DHS an IS mech would need.

6 heat, actually, on a measly three lasers.

That's the heat of a current cMPL.


150% is pretty big, for such small returns. The Smalls got a much better deal for the same 150%.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

6 heat, actually, on a measly three lasers.

That's the heat of a current cMPL.


150% is pretty big, for such small returns. The Smalls got a much better deal for the same 150%.

You replied to my post without reading it then.

Since you decided to not actually read the example I presented, I'll present it again.



3x CMPL
For 6 tons you get
18 heat
24 damage
330m range

2x IS LPL
For 14 tons you get
14 heat
22 damage
365m range


18 - 14 = 4 heat.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 March 2015 - 01:40 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 06 March 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

You replied to my post without reading it then.

Since you decided to not actually read the example I presented, I'll present it again.



3x CMPL
For 6 tons you get
18 heat
24 damage
330m range

2x IS LPL
For 14 tons you get
14 heat
22 damage
365m range


18 - 14 = 4 heat.

Obviously you aren't getting the point. Again.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 06 March 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

You replied to my post without reading it then.

Since you decided to not actually read the example I presented, I'll present it again.



3x CMPL
For 6 tons you get
18 heat
24 damage
330m range

2x IS LPL
For 14 tons you get
14 heat
22 damage
365m range


18 - 14 = 4 heat.

A better comparison though, is looking at the HPS value of the weapons, and seeing how many DHS it takes to compensate.

3 MPLs = 4.77 HPS
2 LPLs = 3.58 HPS
Difference = 1.19 or 8.5 DHS (not using TrueDubs™)

So the MPLs actually require a significant amount of DHS if you plan on using them consistently technically making up for the tonnage disparity but we know you don't need complete efficiency to be effective.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 06 March 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Spr1ggan]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 March 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

when the Clans were released in June, the Nova-S was actually perfectly viable bone stock. More so if you traded the AMS out for DHS.

Now, even with the quirks it is less effective than it was then.

My favourite one was the 6 meds + 6 smalls.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

Obviously you aren't getting the point. Again.

The point is that you are harping on some TT value that is completely irrelevant with how this game is actually played.

I guess if you don't feel like dealing with my actual comparison, moving the goalposts is easier.

[Ultimax]

WM Quicksilver, on 06 March 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

A better comparison though, is looking at the HPS value of the weapons, and seeing how many DHS it takes to compensate.

3 MPLs = 4.77 HPS
2 LPLs = 3.58 HPS
Difference = 1.19 or 8.5 DHS (not using TrueDubs™)

So the MPLs actually require a significant amount of DHS if you plan on using them consistently technically making up for the tonnage disparity but we know you don't need complete efficiency to be effective.

You make some excellent points, I'll need to work out some realistic builds and compare .

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 March 2015 - 01:59 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 06 March 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

The point is that you are harping on some TT value that is completely irrelevant with how this game is actually played.

I guess if you don't feel like dealing with my actual comparison, moving the goalposts is easier.

Or perhaps a heat efficient laser past 200M?

Something the Clams do not have. MPLs were supposed to be that. Pay tonnage for heat efficiency.

Instead, you just have to pile on PoorDubs. IS has more efficient long and mid range lasers. All whilst you harp on about how double the weight is somehow worth one point of damage with less range?


It's never a discussion either, you just bring up some heat efficient IS lasers whilst saying "Look at this damage! Look at it!"

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

Or perhaps a heat efficient laser past 200M?

Something the Clams do not have. MPLs were supposed to be that. Pay tonnage for heat efficiency.

What is that you actually want?

When you say heat efficient do you mean heat neutral?



If clan lasers were any cooler, they would be ridiculous because you can, in fact, stuff clan mechs with 20+ heatsinks with some mechs able to get 25+. We had this already, and it was clearly an issue.

If you can't see how that was problematic when they were cooler, then there is really nothing to discuss.

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

Instead, you just have to pile on PoorDubs. IS has more efficient long and mid range lasers.

Except one faction's "heat efficient" laser weighs FIVE TIMES the clan rough equivalent.



The equivalent IS build costs around 25 tons before you can even add heatsinks. They are more heat efficient, because they have less tonnage efficiency.


Tonnage efficiency is a very critical build aspect, it separates what builds can run STDs and which ones have to run inferior IS XL.



Do you think clan lasers should be more tonnage efficient AND more heat efficient AND have across the board superior range?


Where is the balance point in there?

Do you think I should just hand wavium away the range and tonnage differences?

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

you just bring up some heat efficient IS lasers whilst saying "Look at this damage! Look at it!"

I have put up different builds, and worked out math on a number of occasions and you usually just ignore it because it is not what you want to hear.

Like this, for example:






I look at whole builds or load outs, instead of vacuum isolating ONE laser vs. ONE other laser.

I do this because no one plays the game with one laser - they play full builds, with a specific alpha score, with a specific number of heatsinks and a specific range the build is capable of playing at.


We need to look at the whole picture, or we miss the forest for the trees.


This is what I work from when I make my comparisons, I'm always happy to hear actual constructive feedback even when it show a clear error or miscalculation I've made (as WM Quicksilver did a few posts up).



https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing


If you, or anyone, has any ideas on how I can improve that and also how I can generate a tonnage vs. heat vs. damage efficiency value, I am all ears.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 March 2015 - 05:14 PM.

[Soy]

Look you guys are getting really technical about **** so let me set **** straight.

You have to look at **** pragmatically, ok.

The thing that say a Nova does well, is it has a ton of hardpoints. Right? Ok, so. How can we utilize those? Well, you gotta put weps in there. Ok. Now, if we put in **** beyond SL or SPL, the heat is just monstrous. And whats the point? It has no ability to sustain damage at that point. It's asinine. You can get away with doing half MLs, and the rest shorter for nice Rodolero swashbuckler play. But even that is mucked by the inconsistency of the firing cadence unless you were truly 1 with the mech

Now lets say like, Crow. It has extra tonnage that it can get away with using ML or MPLs. Same as Timber, etc... Plus, not as many hardpoints... so it has to make up that damage by going MLs or whatnot right?

The other thing is burn time and exposure time. Crow and Timber can't tart, but the Crow does at least have borked hitbox, and Timber does at least have legit heavy armor, so staring isn't as big a deal for these mechs that can just throw on meds. Right?

But in Nova you have to use a ****** up glass cannon, that has tart ability. It cannot throw enough heat sinks on there to keep down a huge pack of meds, so it has to use smalls or SPLs. This is perfect because the tart window, the exposure time ie lessoned, you still maintain utilization and thus alpha potential of all those hardpoints not being squandered.

So the way I look at is, man, when you really get over the 'range' thing - and I understand, yes, there are some situations where that's just a big "**** you, die and lose" - you see where the distinction in those two weps on two different mechs is totally built with different logic in mind.

I'm just being banal right now, but I hope you guys get what I mean. You have to adjust your expectations and what you're trying to do to each mech, I don't see why putting 2 weapons (from diff factions too lol) in a vacuum is gonna matter cuz at the end of the day they will have different potential uses on diff mechs.

Look at each weapon differently for each mech, for each purpose. Don't just crunch on a wep in the ether cuz that means diddly ******* squat.

ps - how high am i right now ^

Edited by Soy, 06 March 2015 - 05:26 PM.