123 replies to this topic

[FrontGuard]

Bregor Edain, on 06 March 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

You get a certain amount of gxp for every xp you earn, I believe that was 5%. If you gain double the regular xp you also get double the gxp.

That sounds logical to me. I would think you are correct.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Almond Brown, on 06 March 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

I must have missed the part of the announcement where it stated they were lowering the C-Bills earned per Match. That is what your saying right? Somehow, having XP rates doubled, you will earn LESS C-Bills per match by default?

You may end up with more spare XP/GXP per chassis Mastered but I cannot fathom how you would ever relate an 2X XP event ending up with LESS C-Bills by comparison.

Or did you actually write all that, just to really try and say,

"I would like more C-Bills, not more XP?"

I wrote all that to say 'I think it would be better for many players to have more C-bills and not more XP, and here is why,' because I like to back up my statements and arguments with a clear understanding of my thought process so that if anyone wants to argue against me they can actually ague against what I'm thinking and not against some made-up reasoning that they had to invent.

Like you seem to have done here.

Leaving the impression that you didn't read my post or at least didn't read it with comprehension in mind.


Addendum: Incidentally, it -is- less C-bills by comparison to XP than would have been had at the same total XP gain, which was the comparison I was making. What comparison did you think I was making and why?

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 06 March 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 06 March 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Depends on how you understand 'negative factor'. To some players, it's effectively a wasted resource, because they're getting a bonus and it winds up being a bonus they can't use.

Me personally, I don't care either way about having a lot of XP and nothing to do with it, I just would like to encourage C-bill related invents instead, as those are more applicable to the shortages free or nearly-free playing pilots face than XP are.

Sorry to argue that first point but it is not a wasted resource. They just don't make use of a resource that can be made use of because it may cost them real monies. Fair enough, but not a wasted resource at all, just a player made choice or decision.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Almond Brown, on 06 March 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

Sorry to argue that first point but it is not a wasted resource. They just don't make use of a resource that can be made use of because it may cost them real monies. Fair enough, but not a wasted resource at all, just a player made choice or decision.

Hence 'to some players'. I was indicating that I know there are some players who think that. I don't know why they think that or how they get there, but they do think that. Whether or not they're right is irrelevant to what I was saying with that sentence.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 06 March 2015 - 11:00 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Wait. Wait, wait, wait...SLOW DOWN, egghead...

[Almond Brown]

FrontGuard, on 06 March 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

I do not see that in the description of this event... double the GXP ?!?
I dont think so. Otherwise there would not also be a convert XP to GXP at the cost of MC at the same time.

Rule is ALL XP generated per Match gets 5% converted to GXP. Thus earning 2X XP would increase the amount of GXP generated equally.

100XP = 5 GXP
200XP = 10GXP

So we get Bonus + Bonus and + Bonus. Gotta love them XP bonus based weekends.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"hmm, I'd consider buying some MC to convert some of my unused mech xp, but my cards won't work. It's not the cards themselves, because I can use them for online purchases and bills elsewhere, it's only this site that they won't work."

Had the same issue. PGI is based in Canada and my American bank requires I personally call the bank, verify who I am and give verbal request to use the card if its going out of country. Try that.

[FrontGuard]

Almond Brown, on 06 March 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

Sorry to argue that first point but it is not a wasted resource. They just don't make use of a resource that can be made use of because it may cost them real monies. Fair enough, but not a wasted resource at all, just a player made choice or decision.

I must disagree... One of the first mechs i got was the Jester. He now has Many Thousands of XP and is totaly maxed out in everything as I also have the other varients and they are also maxed out. So.... Are those XP not waisted reasources. And NO I do not count spending $ / MC converting them to GXP as a real use.

[Ninjah]

Great, I don't play often so there is a lot to unlock. Poor enemies...

[Nightshade24]

FrontGuard, on 06 March 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

This is nice... will be an easy weekend of leveling up my new and not often played mechs... thanks.

however

Most of my mechs have been maxed out for a long time and have mass amounts of unused XP.
Shure wish there was a way to convert Mech XP to C-Bills.
100 to 1 or even 1000 to 1 whould be better than nothing.

don't worry, they will convert all mech exp to GXP and refund all mech skills soon. (This is part of redo-ing the mech skill tree patch, they said you will lose everything but regaiin it in the form of GXP)

And GXP isn't that bad, ja? Especially when you can use it on 100% no skill mechs that may or may not require more skill points to master.

[Almond Brown]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 06 March 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

I wrote all that to say 'I think it would be better for many players to have more C-bills and not more XP, and here is why,' because I like to back up my statements and arguments with a clear understanding of my thought process so that if anyone wants to argue against me they can actually ague against what I'm thinking and not against some made-up reasoning that they had to invent.

Like you seem to have done here.

Leaving the impression that you didn't read my post or at least didn't read it with comprehension in mind.

Addendum: Incidentally, it -is- less C-bills by comparison to XP than would have been had at the same total XP gain, which was the comparison I was making. What comparison did you think I was making and why?

My issue was attempting to comprehend that gibberish you called conversion vs generated C-Bill/XP rate(s) or whatever.

C-bills and XP are generated on a Match by Match basis and their level of generation can swing wildly from Match to Match depending on many factors. Some of which you have "zero" control.

So how do you see players over-all C-Bills being reduced, that is what you said right, due to there being a 2X XP Event going on?

[Almond Brown]

FrontGuard, on 06 March 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

I must disagree... One of the first mechs i got was the Jester. He now has Many Thousands of XP and is totaly maxed out in everything as I also have the other varients and they are also maxed out. So.... Are those XP not waisted reasources. And NO I do not count spending $ / MC converting them to GXP as a real use.

I have some of them as well. That XP builds up between XP Events, then I convert and apply it to new Mechs, thus cutting down on Grid time for them. Although a challenge to Drive Basic'd Mechs, nothing like having GXP to fill a full Trio to Master, then Module them to their full potential asap (C-bills permitting ofc).

Otherwise, once Mastered, even a favorite Mech is just generating a "wasted" resource from that point forward. I know I may look at it funny perhaps but I do understand that PGI is a business and XP conversion, especially a 2X bonus conversion, is a very inexpensive way to support the company and Game I totally enjoy playing.

If one pays "nothing" to play, then I am of the mind they also have "nothing" to complain about... YMMV as always.

Ninjah, on 06 March 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Great, I don't play often so there is a lot to unlock. Poor enemies...

Are we gonna get "ninjah'd" this weekend... omg!

Edited by Almond Brown, 06 March 2015 - 11:21 AM.

[FrontGuard]

Nightshade24, on 06 March 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

don't worry, they will convert all mech exp to GXP and refund all mech skills soon. (This is part of redo-ing the mech skill tree patch, they said you will lose everything but regaiin it in the form of GXP)

Say What !?!?! Where are you getting this info? Or is this a Troll?

[Nightshade24]

FrontGuard, on 06 March 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Say What !?!?! Where are you getting this info? Or is this a Troll?

I believe it was from an earlier towns hall or a command chair post, I am not exactly the most well now so I can't remember where exactly but I do believe they will wipe all mech EXP and convert it to GXP so you do not feel like you had a waste of time (Or if you used GXP to get those upgrades, or paid for it, then that'll suck even more)


I mean we know it would happen, SOME mech pilot skills are completely useless and some are completely useless to certain mechs (ie: "Arm movement" on a mech with no weapon in arms...)



And when you remove stuff like that, it would be a **** move to not do something about it. (for eg convert it to GXP)

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Almond Brown, on 06 March 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

My issue was attempting to comprehend that gibberish you called conversion vs generated C-Bill/XP rate(s) or whatever.

C-bills and XP are generated on a Match by Match basis and their level of generation can swing wildly from Match to Match depending on many factors. Some of which you have "zero" control.

So how do you see players over-all C-Bills being reduced, that is what you said right, due to there being a 2X XP Event going on?

No, what I said is that the C-bills compared to the XP will be reduced. Everything that has rewards has both a C-bill and an XP reward, and these are in roughly the same proportion to each other regardless of which reward is the reward in question. This results in a comparative rate of gain of both C-bills and XP that falls within the same range regardless of win or loss, a proportion something like 100:1. When a double XP event happens, for the duration that proportion becomes more like 50:1.

Here's the math.

At the base roughly 100:1 ratio, the process of Mastering a 'mech (requiring 57,250 total XP) earns a pilot approximately 6 million C-bills, which you can then compare to the cost of buying and outfitting a 'mech- usually 2-4 million for a Light, 3-7 million for a Medium, 5-10 million for a Heavy, and 8-15 million for an Assault. Per variant. Assuming a moderate engine cost (smaller XL engines for the chassis or up to a fairly large Standard engine).

In the process of Mastering a Light 'mech variant, you would then expect to see a gain of roughly 3 million C-bills on average.
In the process of Mastering a Medium 'mech variant, you would expect to see a gain of roughly 1.5 million C-bills on average.
In the process of Mastering a Heavy 'mech variant, you would expect to take a loss of roughly 1.5 million C-bills on average.
In the process of Mastering an Assault 'mech variant, you would expect to take a loss of roughly 7 million C-bills on average.

You can get back some money by selling 'mechs, but it's a rare pilot who sells back everything, and even then Assaults still mean taking a loss on C-bills- but that's not quite the point.

If you earn your entire C-bill amount on 2x XP matches, you're earning less C-bills over the time it takes to Master a 'mech. Regardless of whether or not this is an actual loss of C-bills, it feels worse for the player (and being a recreational activity like MWO is, that's really really important) in the case of pretty much any player who derives enjoyment from progression.

Since each 'Mech you Master has a certain cost defined by the chassis weight and the cost of components, this then means that a player earning their Mastery one way winds up with more C-bills than a player earning their mastery the other way. As a result of that, the player who is operating at the 50:1 ratio and can't afford to pay real-life money for the cost of the 'mech in the first place winds up doing one of two things.

1) They accomplish the mastery and then find they don't have enough C-bills to purchase the next variant or the first variant of the next chassis they want to work on. This feels unsatisfying because progression is a natural desire that is worked into the system of the game, and by their perception, the progression is not satisfied. Additionally, they have spent less time in this 'mech adjusting to its movement profile, size, hardpoint location etc. than in a 'mech they mastered at the 100:1 ratio, and thus have a poorer understanding of how to pilot it, and may even not have fun with it where they could if they had driven it more and either adjusted more to it or adjusted their customizations to it to fit themself.

2) They pilot the 'mech until they have enough C-bills to purchase the next variant or the first variant of the next chassis. The extra XP then lingers on the 'mech they just mastered until they spend real life money to buy XP conversion- which may well never happen. Depending on the pilot, this either feels unsatisfying because they're getting a benefit they can't use from the event, or they don't care at all and the event has achieved only the GXP increase as far as the pilot in question is concerned.

Because of this, the increased XP gain rate without an accompanying increase in C-bill gain rate is often either unsatisfying or mostly meaningless (GXP increase being the functional result, and there's a limited amount of stuff to spend XP on, where you can always spend more C-bills). Keep in mind that this mostly applies to those of us who can't afford to or don't want to spend real-life money on MC which is then spent to buy 'mechs.

In comparison, more C-bills means being able to do more loadout adjustment (costs of upgrades, engines, equipment) and being able to either save money, or pre-purchase the next chassis/variant you want to work on, or actually being able to afford modules, all of which are things that feel good for everyone.

[Smoked]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 06 March 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

I'll be honest- I'm not actually enthused about this at all. I know I'm in the minority here, but I have an actual reason.

With the usual C-bill:XP earnings rate comparison, in the process of Mastering a given variant of a given chassis, I can expect to come out with a certain result each time I complete both the Mastery and the customization of that 'mech.

If the 'Mech is Light, I can expect to come out several million C-bills richer.

If the 'Mech is Medium, I can expect to come out one or maybe two million C-bills richer.

If the 'Mech is Heavy, I can expect to roughly break even unless it uses a very big XL engine, in which case, I take a small loss in C-bills (one million or less).

If the 'Mech is Assault, I can expect to come out two to three million C-bills behind unless it takes a relatively small engine or an engine I already have lying around because I took it out of something else after purchasing it.


As a primarily free player, I rely on this relative level of C-bill earnings to keep me from winding up with not enough C-bills to pick up the next 'mech. Every time I get extra XP without extra C-bills, this throws the equation off, and double XP throws it off really hard.

Premium time doesn't affect this because it alters XP and C-bills by the same proportionate amount at the same time, but all the double XP events leave me either deliberately not playing 'mechs where I can 'benefit' from the XP boost in order to not come out effectively shorted C-bills, or not playing at all because it throws off a relatively delicate balance I have to maintain so I don't wind up going 'if only I had more C-bills'.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not saying (and imagine me talking in a funny voice with my eyes crossed here,) 'You shouldn't hold events like this cos its bad and harf darf darf'. Heck, I don't even imagine most primarily free players (nevermind most players in general) think about it from this angle and are of the same opinion I am. But I think it would be much cooler to either have premium time weekends (which would have the benefit of not only not causing an earning type disparity, but also give free players the chance to taste and maybe want premium time) or even just 'bonus Cbill' weekends, where either C-bill rewards are boosted in general or some particular form of in-game activity (spotting bonus? Lance Formation bonus? Electronic Warfare bonus?) earns a scaled-up C-bill reward.

'I don't have enough XP' is not a complaint I hear a lot, and the current XP rate seems good for ensuring players have enough time in a variant/chassis to adjust to the chassis and learn how to play it, but I hear and read all the time about people who have to shift engines and modules around from 'mech to 'mech between games because they can't afford enough of them while still buying and kitting out 'mechs (especially in the case of engines).

So, yeah. I appreciate the thought, but I'm actually likely to deliberately avoid the boosted XP earnings (and exceptionally unlikely to spend money or what little MC I have on XP conversion), and I think a boosted C-bill alternative would do just as much if not more to help players out and make them feel more rewarded. Even so, good on you all, PGI, for having weekendly events, even if they are as simple as 'double XP weekend'. Keep improving things, okay? I -will- keep playing. Just not this weekend. Maybe break out some of the things I haven't piloted in a while instead, I dunno.

-QKD-CR0

So let me get this straight. After running 2 weekends of challenges where it was relatively easy to get 3 days of free premium time, they need to give free to play players more premium time to try it out?

Entitled much bro? I typically won't play if I don't like the bonuses regardless of how much premium time I'm losing.

PGI is a business. They want paying players to convert the extra exp to gexp. If they kept giving away premium time for free they lose income and devalue premium time.

I am glad you are supporting the game with your participation but to complain about an event that's giving something free... Also feel free to play the same number of games as you normally would to earn the same cbills. This event doesn't hurt you in any way other than making your mechs elited twice as fast which most people would agree is beneficial as far as earning c bills.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Smoked, on 06 March 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

So let me get this straight. After running 2 weekends of challenges where it was relatively easy to get 3 days of free premium time, they need to give free to play players more premium time to try it out?

Entitled much bro? I typically won't play if I don't like the bonuses regardless of how much premium time I'm losing.

PGI is a business. They want paying players to convert the extra exp to gexp. If they kept giving away premium time for free they lose income and devalue premium time.

I am glad you are supporting the game with your participation but to complain about an event that's giving something free... Also feel free to play the same number of games as you normally would to earn the same cbills. This event doesn't hurt you in any way other than making your mechs elited twice as fast which most people would agree is beneficial as far as earning c bills.

Alright, I'll boil my actual point down and see if maybe a soundbite is (for some unfathomable reason) more acceptable to you.

Nice event. I'm not personally enthused by it, because C-bills would be nicer for more people. Have you considered a C-bill event?

I am not at all encouraged by the way this is being interpereted as 'DURHURR I WANT MORE CBILLS U SUK LAWL'.

I have laid out, multiple times now, why boosted C-bills would be a good idea, and why not just I, but many other players as well, would benefit more and get better feelings (since this is a game, guess what, it's all about feelings like the feeling of having fun) from a different kind of event.

At no point have I said 'you can take this event and stuff it,' and I'd really like to know why people keep thinking I am saying that.

There is a big difference between 'thanks but I think this or that might be a better idea, could you consider it for next time?' and 'screw you this event sucks'.

[DaddyP1G]

WEEE!!! This is helpful when trying to level a mech! Panther 9R

Edited by Kaden Kildares, 06 March 2015 - 01:39 PM.

[YUyahoo]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 06 March 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Alright, I'll boil my actual point down and see if maybe a soundbite is (for some unfathomable reason) more acceptable to you.

Nice event. I'm not personally enthused by it, because C-bills would be nicer for more people. Have you considered a C-bill event?

I am not at all encouraged by the way this is being interpereted as 'DURHURR I WANT MORE CBILLS U SUK LAWL'.

I have laid out, multiple times now, why boosted C-bills would be a good idea, and why not just I, but many other players as well, would benefit more and get better feelings (since this is a game, guess what, it's all about feelings like the feeling of having fun) from a different kind of event.

At no point have I said 'you can take this event and stuff it,' and I'd really like to know why people keep thinking I am saying that.

There is a big difference between 'thanks but I think this or that might be a better idea, could you consider it for next time?' and 'screw you this event sucks'.

I understand your point but I unfortunately do not share your opinion. This is my take on the matter: A double exp weekend, given to us by PGI without the need for us to do anything to obtain it or purchase anything to receive it is AWESOME! It effectively cuts the time to elite a mech in half, which for me is hugely more valuable than doubling my C-bill earning because I cannot buy even 1 MXP for all the C-bills I have, because once a mech is mastered/elited I can preform MUCH better in the mech (which some might argue isn't saying much, lol) and better performance = better C-bill earnings (and better C-bill earnings without a "limited time"). I do understand what you mean by the relative C-bill earnings to MXP ratio being lower when XP is doubled and C-bills aren't, but honestly you will generally earn more C-bills after a mech is mastered/elited than you will during the time you are leveling up a mech so wouldn't it be better to level it faster than to earm more C-bills while leveling? Yes sometimes configuring a mech how you want it could end up costing more C-bills than you will earn grinding the mech up through its skill trees but again for most people you will earn more C-bills AFTER the mech is skilled up (unless your intention is to stop using the mech once it's elited which is something I don't understand...if you don't plan to use a mech once you finish eliting it why elite it in the first place?). Its all in how you look at things and everyone is entitled to their opinion but don't gripe when you are given something for free because you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Nightshade24, on 06 March 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

I believe it was from an earlier towns hall or a command chair post, I am not exactly the most well now so I can't remember where exactly but I do believe they will wipe all mech EXP and convert it to GXP so you do not feel like you had a waste of time (Or if you used GXP to get those upgrades, or paid for it, then that'll suck even more)


I mean we know it would happen, SOME mech pilot skills are completely useless and some are completely useless to certain mechs (ie: "Arm movement" on a mech with no weapon in arms...)



And when you remove stuff like that, it would be a **** move to not do something about it. (for eg convert it to GXP)

Wait, wait, wait.... SERIOUSLY?!?!

They better give a ****-ton of C-bills too! I sold most of my mechs after getting through their skill-trees! So I'd have to rebuy the other crap variants of mechs I sold, to re-basic them, and get back to status quo! O_O That's a LOT of time and C-bills down the drain!

Or, allow some sort of amnesty for a limited time, to let you sink that GXP into variants you don't own anymore...


Though.... I guess I'd come out ahead.... with well over a million mech XP sitting on my 4-5 favorite mechs alone...

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 06 March 2015 - 04:18 PM.