171 replies to this topic

[TheLastUn1corn]

So, right now I feel like the Invasion game mode is geared towards a very small percentage of MWO players: the ones who have a group of 12 (or something like 10 at least) people to play with, so they can drop as a homogenous group with superior communication and organization. Now, what seems to happen really rarely at the moment, is that such groups are paired up against equal groups on the other side. Most of the time I see the Matchmaker putting a (nearly) full group against a PUG, that contains either only small groups or, more often, no groups at all.

Most of the time, the outcome of this is rather enraging: the full group just stomps the PUG, sometimes without even losing some 5 mechs. I had 4 invasion matches today, and all 4 went on like this.

So what are the results of this? Community Warfare, being held up as the shining example of where MWO is going to be in several years, is actually rapdily losing player support: a lot of single players and mini-groups are disappointed of how terribly unbalanced most matches are and therefore decide to play CW less often. Today, a player even told me in the chat: "It's not fun. In fact I never had fun in this mode".

To me, this is really sad, as I remember the time when CW did just come out: no big groups would fill the lobbies; instead, it was almost always PUG against PUG with only minor groups inside. Back then, this mode was fun for everybody, down to even the most casual player, now it's only fun for a selected few. Bearing this in mind, "Elite Warfare" seems more of a correct term to describe this mode as it is now...

So, what could be done about this? I suggest adjusting the Matchmaker in a way that would make big groups stand up against other big groups instead of taking a full group on one side and trying to puzzle up a PUG on the other. To achieve this, I would vote for a more general lobby system: to most players it is not important, what exact planet they are attacking or defending right now as the whole galaxy system isn't really working as promised so far. So why don't we make it so that players of one faction would join a single lobby, from where they would then be redirected to any planet where an equally qualified enemy group is formed. This would result in Groups fighting Groups and PUGs fighting PUGs on separate planets. As a result, group players, who are enjoying (or maybe not so much) a big grindfest just now, would get more of a challenge while solo players and small groups would be able to reasonably participate and have fun in CW.

What do you guys think about this? Are you group or solo players, and what are your experiences on this topic?

Edited by TheLastUn1corn, 05 March 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[White Bear 84]

We dropped against clanners last night (Aus time, defending Havdem, Arkadakka or whatever they were called.

We dropped as a 6 man group, with the rest of the team made up by PUGS. We actually only lost one counter attack 38-43 with the Omega down, it was a fun night of games.

The in game voip helped a lot with communication between our group and pugs, the fact we one all but one indicates that its not such a big issue.

That said, since we were in a group of 6 with pugs, I do not think we were unfortunate enough to drop against a full 12 man group - that would have been another story im sure.......

[wanderer]

It's really not to that level, but soloers have it the worst.

Liao regularly drops with multiple smaller groups (think 4-6 players) filled in with soloers and does fine, but as the solo component approaches 50%, team integrity fails.

And redirecting players DOES matter, as frankly, sometimes we do NOT want to fight on a given planet. The "we don't care where we fight" bunch are the nice people who feed Clanners a constant stream of PUGs to slap around. That's really crappy CW, and if you want the "I don't care" queue, it's called the solo queue, it's ready to go, and keep it the heck away from CW.

[TheLastUn1corn]

wanderer, on 05 March 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

And redirecting players DOES matter, as frankly, sometimes we do NOT want to fight on a given planet.

See, what I'm talking about is a long border between two factions with multiple planets being fought over along that border. I fail to see how it could matter on which of those planets you are fighting.

wanderer, on 05 March 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

... the nice people who feed Clanners a constant stream of PUGs to slap around.

I forgot to mention that my 4 desastrous matches today were as a Clan PUG being unfortunate enough to drop against full groups of IS. So you don't tell me it's the clans being the problem here.

And stating "we don't want nobody who don't care about the exact planet" is just rude, as the game itself hasn't been developing mode-wise in quite some time. Therefore it is only natural, that everybody wants to play in a new mode, not only the experienced group players. And, btw., I don't say that you "elite" players need to mix up with us PUGs: I suggested basically separating PUGs and full groups.

Edited by TheLastUn1corn, 05 March 2015 - 06:07 PM.

[stratagos]

Speaking as a Pug who generally is more interested in a good match than ensuring victory for a faction I don't care about, I'm *so sorry* that me playing might flip the color of a pixel. With the stakes of CW so high, I can see how everyone not slavishly following 'the plan' is of concern to you.

[TheLastUn1corn]

This!

In the end, the "community" consists of everybody, doesn't it?

Edited by TheLastUn1corn, 05 March 2015 - 06:09 PM.

[wanderer]

TheLastUn1corn, on 05 March 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

And stating "we don't want nobody who don't care about the exact planet" is just rude, as the game itself hasn't been developing mode-wise in quite some time. Therefore it is only natural, that everybody wants to play in a new mode, not only the experienced group players. And, btw., I don't say that you "elite" players need to mix up with us PUGs: I suggested basically separating PUGs and full groups.

Elite....*cough*....me...

Dammit, you made me choke on dinner reading that.

That's the point of CW, though. It doesn't split people, it's the community at war. It has lasting effects, even if they're pixels on a map. Get rid of all the pixels of one color and suddenly, a faction isn't there anymore.

The FRR is down to 5 planets at the moment, up from 4. That first faction going bye-bye is close, very close.

And it's PvP. PvP is neither fair nor balanced, at the heart of things- because we're all trying for IMbalance, advantages, superiority. Solo/group queue is the "instant action" mode, CW is the campaign, where fights actually change something and have an effect that carries over from day to day, even fight to fight. You pick a side, you fight for that side, and it's armies of players, not just a random mix that fights on one random battlefield and never sees the same mix again. Even as a Liao solo player and a regular, I get very familiar with the units and players around me. Community warfare may be open to everybody, but everybody isn't the same at playing in it. It demands group efforts to be effective right now, and that's the nature of a system that only has a 12v12 mode.

When 4v4 shows up, I fully expect the PUG hordes to jump in on it, specifically since it won't be needing that level of focus to be maximally effective- you can "carry" a 4-man where you can't carry a CW match. I know I'll be playing it more often. But altering the 12v12 queue radically won't work without breaking the concept in the first place 12v12 generally "needs" a sprinkling of soloers to fill in the cracks for a 12-man, but too much "filler" and you're stuck with a dangerously disorganized "group" that shatters under organized opponents.

[sdsnowbum]

I would encourage people who care about which planet sees fighting to chat more in the nifty new faction chat. What planets to focus on, which ones to avoid and maybe why.

Even better would be intel on which faction and units you fought against on a planet. Might just keep a few solos from dropping if the queue time looks favorable but the planet is the focus of a famous unit.

Unfortunately you will have to keep repeating since new players only see msgs sent since they logged in (I think).

[sdsnowbum]

TheLastUn1corn, on 05 March 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

To me, this is really sad, as I remember the time when CW did just come out: no big groups would fill the lobbies; instead, it was almost always PUG against PUG with only minor groups inside. Back then, this mode was fun for everybody, down to even the most casual player, now it's only fun for a selected few. Bearing this in mind, "Elite Warfare" seems more of a correct term to describe this mode as it is now...

<snip>

This would result in Groups fighting Groups and PUGs fighting PUGs on separate planets. As a result, group players, who are enjoying (or maybe not so much) a big grindfest just now, would get more of a challenge while solo players and small groups would be able to reasonably participate and have fun in CW.

What do you guys think about this? Are you group or solo players, and what are your experiences on this topic?

Honestly I think the early days were better matchups because there were more solos. Although the wait times were atrocious for solos and the queue #s were hidden anyway.

These days if I go to what looks like an active planet, then get crushed by a big group, I'll stop going to that planet. However often there no other planets that look promising and that ends my CW foray for the night.

[Signal27]

I'm hoping to myself that when "Looking For Group" gets implemented, it will make assembling 12 man pre-mades that much faster. And in the process of assembling those pre-mades, the group leader can simply ask each random he invites "Got a mic? Mind using VOIP?" as a requisite for joining the group.

[Mordin Ashe]

I am mostly solo pugger and I can't complain. Yes, some solo pilots make mistakes but they would probably make them even as part of a group - group play can improve coordination, not individual player skills.

Personally I don't see it as a big deal, sometimes team lets you down and sometimes you let the others down. What is important to me is that even if others play poorly you still have enough space to get some solid rewards and that is all I care about.

[Leeroy Mechkins]

Clan PUG and IS PUG. BIG difference.
Clan PUGs are at least 6 month old players. You can work with that.
IS PUG often are 1 day old players who don't even know how to fit a light mech.

[Ian G]

Lol, I was a clanner til yesterday, and i'm in this game since late november. But I have read some tactical guides, know the lore from my time past playing classic BT and watched videos on youtube. Also i got into a clan (or unit if you want to call it that way) and learned to play. So nope, you don't need to be 6 months in the game (and btw, clanners can take Trials to CW as well as IS).

[Wingbreaker]

Ian G, on 06 March 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

Lol, I was a clanner til yesterday, and i'm in this game since late november. But I have read some tactical guides, know the lore from my time past playing classic BT and watched videos on youtube. Also i got into a clan (or unit if you want to call it that way) and learned to play. So nope, you don't need to be 6 months in the game (and btw, clanners can take Trials to CW as well as IS).

To be fair, you also had much better trials than the current lot.

I feel bad for anyone stepping into CW with the default clan deck right now. It's... bad. Really bad.

[Mavqie]

I'm not sure there are enough players to seperate pugs from units etc would be amazing if it could happen though i find i can get much better games playing pug v pug (otherwise its usually light rush followed by assault game over)

Problem is i think a lot of new players are getting put off from even joining cw

[Sandersson Jankins]

Well, I'll vehemently disagree that at least 10 players are needed to impact, have success, or have fun in CW.

I'm running with anywhere between 1 friend and 7 others maximum, generally. Even as a solo player, I'll have success. Had about 5-6 wins in a row as a duo with a good player. Most of those wins weren't "piggybacks" off of a large unit stack. We had a lance here or there organized in their TS, a few duos, and many solo players. We'd use voip to call targets diligently, and make a general plan (ie, RUSH THIS SECTOR, complex plans are bad for pugs). We had success against similar clan forces. There'd be an organized lance here or there, with plenty of duos and solos.


Am I taking the bandwagon of "IF YOU LOSE TO A FULL 12 MAN AS PUGS UR NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH LOL"?

Almost.

It DOES suck for both parties (unless the experienced players ONLY want space-bucks, then its great for them) for pugs to come up against full units. PGI should do something about it, and that is generally agreed-upon. For now, keep telling PGI what you'd like to see in a respectful manner that is likely to precipitate action. In the mean-time, DONT BE DISHEARTENED WHEN YOU SEE UNITS ON THE BAD GUY TEAM OR PUGS ON YOURS.

Be positive. High morale and esprit-de-corps actually DOES have an impact on your match. Even if you know in the back of your head you're gonna lose a fight against a 12 man MS crew or other group with pugs on your side. You can still have fun, you can still learn a thing or two, and you can still ENABLE OTHERS TO HAVE FUN AS WELL.

Think about the viewpoint of some poor ******* that has wandered into CW with all trials or maybe 1-2 badly built machines. He probably doesn't even understand he's in for an ****-tearing in the game.

Oh wait, what's that? He hears someone lamenting the loss of **** virginity before the game has started? He's scared, confused, and demoralized.

He hears some cool-sounding field marshall guy nerd-herding the team in an ATTEMPT to win even if he can't? He might be into CW.

That's just me. I'll always have fun in a drop, and I'll always try to win.

[TheLastUn1corn]

Mordin Ashe, on 05 March 2015 - 11:49 PM, said:

Personally I don't see it as a big deal, sometimes team lets you down and sometimes you let the others down. What is important to me is that even if others play poorly you still have enough space to get some solid rewards and that is all I care about.

See, of course you can put individual skill to the board, and that was exactly what I tried to do in those matches. Just any kind of fun ends immediately when you get killed the first time just to discover some 5 enemy mechs standing around your drop location and tearing you to shreds once you hit the ground. That is just bad balancing, thats all.

Mavqie, on 06 March 2015 - 02:49 AM, said:

Problem is i think a lot of new players are getting put off from even joining cw

That's exactly what I am talking about. Your Community Warfare excludes quite a big percentage of players right now.

[Kilo 40]

don't worry. Russ is going to allow us unworthy pugs the chance at some 4v4 matches, while the uber elite get full on 48v48 matches. exciting huh?!?!

thanks for the bone russ. i hope the 12 man groups enjoy their prime rib.

[HARDKOR]

Wingbreaker, on 06 March 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

To be fair, you also had much better trials than the current lot.

I feel bad for anyone stepping into CW with the default clan deck right now. It's... bad. Really bad.

My roommate has been playing on clan trials all week. It's definitely cramping his style, but it's not enough to cause us to even have a chance of losing most of the time.

That being said, it seems like CW is 90% pugs, as there doesn't seem to be many bigger groups to fight. Out of 15 games yesterday, I only fought two 12 mans and a few 6-10's, with the rest being pugs. Pugs are often super boring to fight, to the point where coms goes silent and noone even bothers to call targets anymore.

[aGentleWarrior]

I also play solo and would love to have more CW fun.

Why not try sth like that.
12 vs 12 battle, or 8 vs 8 battle -
but a group could only consist of a 4 mech lance.

So a battle would consist more often from organized lance + pug lance vs, organized lance + pug lance.
In such environment pug players would often learn more from their mate-pug lances then from being crushed by a 12 man organized drop.