121 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

The third type, the "Instagib" Assault. Your Wubshee, 2Gauss2ppc Dire or Crab.

[Haji1096]

Here are my two-cents as a light pilot:

• An assault pilot has to immediately throttle up and get to a good position on the map. I didn't leave you behind because you wasted 30 seconds of match time. 30 seconds is enough time to move 432 meters at 52 kph. That is nearly one grid square. Additionally you can take a shorter path to reach the rest of your BESMing teammates.

• Be patient, don't overextend. Do effective damage to the most dangerous target. Take them out as quickly as possible.
  
• Somehow be able to sense how a match will play out 3 minutes into the future while not being able to see what is going on. So you can move to where you need to be. I suck at this in assaults.

Absolutely those two objectives require support from your team. When I play a medium I try to buddy up with an assault so that we can fire on the same target, I can protect him from flankers. When I play a light I keep track of where my assaults are so I know where my support is if I have to retreat.

If I am in a good firing position and a friendly assault comes to take it, I get out of the way and find a new position. More guns, more LOS for everybody.

[oldradagast]

Soul Tribunal, on 07 March 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

I have a different view on assaults that most other people do. I think of an assault mech as an Area Denial tool in MWO.
If you make people afraid of round a corner, or take a certain approach you can control an area and force opposing mechs to take a path that leads into the majority of your team.
Now of course, this has some downfalls. You cannot be seperated too far from some quick response mechs, or you will end up getting shot to pieces.

At the end of the day, the idea of an assault is really no different than any other mech. You all need support from each other to be successful.

-ST

Agreed. Assaults are too slow to scout, too valuable to hide in the back to snipe, and often too sluggish to brawl well. But, they are a great way to bring pain to anything in an area around them - a lot of pain - and they are tough enough that you can't easily remove them from play so long as they don't try to Rambo the enemy.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Meeso Thorny, on 09 March 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

The pinpoint damage ability in this game is simultaneously the core of the issue and a whole 'nuther can of worms.

Its not a 'nuther can of worms, it is the can of worms, and it needs to be fixed....

and not through damage nerfs, armor buffs and more ghost heat penalties.

[Burktross]

Evan20k, on 07 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

As a dedicated assault pilot, I guess I'll chime in here.

An assault mech's biggest weakness is its inability to turn quickly and deal with lights at close range, thus the need to be escorted. If the assault lance draws the short straw and the NASCAR game starts quickly, they can very often get left behind and dumped into a 4v9 or something situation.

The assault's job, contrary to popular belief isn't taking damage for the rest of the team. Given the sheer amount of firepower any mech can pack if they're dedicated to doing so, your additional armor will melt just like any other mech if you get focused. Your job is to provide a backbone for the team when pushing forward and a rally point for the team when retreating. You should be the second wave into a push, because unlike heavies/mediums, you lack the mobility to retreat if the push is unsustainable. Once you commit, you're committed to the push. Because of your higher heat cap, you can stay in extended combat longer than a lot of other mechs, making you very effective at area denial. Once your heavies and mediums help you get into position, you're able to singlehandedly lock out large areas of the map/firefight with your firepower.

Also your team will blame you for everything that goes wrong, regardless of whether or not it's your fault.


EDIT: Incidentally, this is why the Atlas is so ineffective. Assault mechs shouldn't be the first one in, yet the common brawler Atlas has an effective range of 240m, so it seldom gets to deal any damage unless the other team is unorganized and scattered.

This was beautiful, actually. I'm saving this.

[Joseph Mallan]

Apnu, on 09 March 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

So the leadership and pushing should come from where? The heavies? Sure they have the firepower, but not the armor to stay in the heart of a brawl. The mediums? Even more laughable. While you're sitting in the back keeping your precious DWF or KGC scratch free.

You are dead wrong.

Assaults are meant to assault things, hence the name. That means they are the point of the spear. They hit the hardest and they meet the enemy first, cleaving through and bringing the rest of the force with them, which also means they take the most abuse.

Teams that run off and don't support the assaults are the teams that lose. Either the fast moving element will find the enemy first, be out numbered, out gunned, and out tonned, or the assaults will be found alone, also out numbered, out gunned and out tonned.

Leadership comes from teh player, The main push should be the heavies and mediums supported by Assaults. Unless the assaults stay together then a wall of 4 assaults is a tough force to repel.

[Fragnot]

I don't play an assault any more or less than I do other weight classes. But when I'm in other weight classes, I love being a wingman to an assault; when I'm in an assault, I love having teammates by my side.

Lots of thoughtful replies from assault pilots here o7

[Koniks]

I agree with the people who say an assault's role is determined by loadout, speed, and drop situation. The only role an assault shouldn't take outright is scout or skirmisher. And assaults need to be willing more than other classes to both take damage and deliver damage while also being a lot more aware of their positioning. That doesn't mean that they should always be at the front of a push.

Lights and mediums are the most mobile, so they should find the enemy then harass or skirmish to pin them in position until the main force can arrive. Or serve as outriders to keep the enemy from engaging the main force. It's basically the same role with the biggest difference being how far away from the team they operate. Once the team engages, they're the cavalry, repositioning to either prevent the enemy from outgunning another part of their team or add numbers to an area where they can outnumber the other team. Or get on a flank for surprise back coring.

With a few exceptions, heavies have the best blend of speed, armor, and firepower in the game so they're the main frontline mechs.

Assaults anchor the position. They're area denial, either preventing the enemy from crossing open ground to engage or mauling whatever does get in range. Or they're the second line of the push. They deliver overwhelming fire when they close. Lighter mechs have to use their mobility to survive until that happens.

TL;DR
Basically this is Napoleonic Era warfare, like Wellington's firing lines versus Napoleon's columns. Or that era's ship combat.

Good teams coordinate their drop decks, strategies, and tactics to take advantage of that. PUGs have less coordination from the start, so games more frequently turn into either messy murderballs or static poke fests with not much else going on.

[A Large Infant]

I love how every single mech in this game is at some point described by someone as a second-line mech. Has to be a first line for there to be a second line and I can tell you right now who can stumble into too much heat and get away with largest remainder of their own mech.

[Koniks]

Timber Wolves and Stormcrows. Because they can run away fast enough.

Assaults melt with 3+ mechs shooting at them with 40+ alphas.

[Tuku]

I am a Dire Wolf Pilot.

In pug matches lets say we drop on a small map even. My experience is usually that I am in a lance with other assaults and my team in their other mechs leave me behind...that is they move at their top speed to their destination leaving me to find an alternate and usually much slower route to the fight because I have to avoid being seen by the enemy or risk being swarmed early on in the fight.

If I am with the group say we are in pop shooting mode with the enemy just around the corner or close in I find that people step in front of me allot to jocky for that perfect shot. I stand in a spot where I can take a step out , fire, and back up and suddenly there is a hunchback or stormcrow standing in front of me, this causes me to have to re position witch takes time witch is time I could have spent laying down damage on enemy mechs.

When you pilot a slow assault you have to be able to commit to what you are doing ...Once you start moving toward a position you have to commit to getting there...and if the team decides to do something else without taking the assault mechs into their calculation then they have lost the use of that assault mech in that maneuver.

As for Assault's role on the battlefield. In MWO Lights scout and harass, Mediums do the same to some extent but many can brawl, Heavies are shock troops who move in quick and start dealing damage...Assaults are bruisers...they move up in the case of Brawlers or use their slower speed in the case of support builds to do damage at their optimal range. Above all else however they should be visible on the battlefield and constantly working to get another shot in. While they can be taken out faster than in other Mechwarrior titles they can still take some hits and should use their armor in any engagement to get the best shots that they can. The LBX brawler should be working its way up to the front line ....The support guy should move at full speed with the group and fire LRMs and lasers well inside maximum range as assaults are built to take punishment and if your team is working well in front of you then you should be able to take the hits that come and be a big part of taking down every enemy on the battlefield.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 07 March 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

We often hear assault players telling the the team that he was "left them behind" or wasn't "supported". It seems from their perspective that our role in the game is to be their escort. However one thing that isn't ever discussed is what responsibility the assault players have to the team?

I think it's only fair that if assault players can demand things from their team we in turn should demand things from our assault players.

Everyone can outline the primary roles of a light mech, but what about on the other end of the spectrum? What are the general duties of an assault mech? High damage numbers? Survivability? Leading the charge? All of the above? Perhaps some assault players can chime in and talk about what they think their role is in any given game.

Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women.

[Almond Brown]

Don't drive one a lot, but when I do, this is a Build I like to bring.

He does like when others stare...

Edited by Almond Brown, 10 March 2015 - 09:06 AM.

[1453 R]

I believe Alistair said it best: “It’s amazing how few pilots see themselves in the group that should be attacking first.”

Nobody wants to be the tip of the spear, because the tip of the spear is the thing that gets blunted and wrecked while the rest of the blade is (ideally) following the tip into the enemy’s soft and gooey innards. It’s one of the reasons I’ve made the conscious decision to not be that guy and will often take point regardless of what I’m in, simply because somebody has to and if I can drag my team behind me through the sheer fact of being That Guy In Front, then even if I die we can still win.

Medium drivers see that monumental mass of armor and weapons on an assault ‘Mech, twenty tons of plating and thirty tons of gun, and go “why the hell isn’t that guy wading in first and taking the hits so I can get a proper firing line on the bad guys?!”

Assault drivers see the maneuverability and agility of a medium ‘Mech, tha fondly-remembered ability to Change Their Minds and adapt to what the enemy is doing, and go “why the hell isn’t that guy wading in first and dodging the shots so I can get a proper firing line on the bad guys?!”

Both of those look at the heavies and go “what the heck are you freaks doing?!”, to which the heavies respond “we’re the highest-priority targets, man! Cut us a break, we can’t go in first!”

Which results in a milling fustercluck where everybody ends up getting shot first and nobody can counterattack properly.

Ideally? It’s neither the assaults nor the mediums who should be diving in first. Both of those are classes that excel when the battle is already fixed in position – assaults so they can find the best way to slam into the battle and bring their decisive firepower to bear, mediums (and lights) so they know where the flanks are and can guard/threaten them – but the class that does the best job at fixing the fight in place in the first place?

That would be heavies. Who have a nearly ideal blend of armor, firepower, and mobility, enough to be a threat to anything on the field while still being able to (generally) pick where they set up shop. Assaults may anchor the line, and they should be doing that regardless of what range they choose to fight at (take your LRMbardier assaults and go home, please), but it’s the heavies who should be picking where that line is and ensuring the enemy is there to face it. Certain mediums (Shawks, Crows) can and should help as much as they can, but someone a long time ago described it in a way that truly resonated with me.

Comparing ‘Mech weights to modern combined-arms units, assault ‘Mechs are not your tanks, your heavy armor. They are your tank destroyers, the guys you call in when you know where your enemy’s tanks are and you want them to not be there anymore. Heavies are your tanks, the fast-moving slabs of angry metal that push their way to where they need to be and ensure that the enemy doesn’t push them out.

It’s why the Timber Wolf is inarguably bar-none the best point-of-the-spear ‘Mech in the game, and why your assaults should be behind the Timber Wolves, not in front of them…but they’d best be right behind those Timber Wolves.

And I’ll be right there in front of them with my Stormcrows on aggressive recon, sacrificing armor for position so my team can find the enemy, fix the enemy, and then f*** up the enemy’s lives as the universe intended.

[Khobai]

Quote

This post assumes that all assaults do the same job.

People are confusing compensating for weakness with having different roles.

Lets use the warhawk as an example. Warhawks are not particularly good at brawling. Having to play the warhawk at long range to compensate for its weak brawling ability does NOT make the warhawk good at long range. It simply makes it an assault thats weak at brawling and has to be played at long range to overcome its weakness at brawling. But the reality is, the warhawk is really no better at long range than a dire wolf with a long range build, and in actuality is probably worse than a dire wolf at long range.

Same goes for the Atlas. Just because the Atlas isnt good at long range doesnt make the Atlas a good brawler. It just makes the Atlas an assault thats weak at long range. For the Atlas to be a Brawler it would have to be one of the the scariest mechs to fight at short range, and its not. Im way more afraid of AC/40 jagers and king crabs than Atlases.

What it basically comes down to is this: All assaults have the same role: doing damage. Some just do it way better than others. Quirks were a good start but werent really enough to give mechs strongly defined "roles". We still need a revamped skill/module system where every mech has unique skills/module slots that fit its archetypical role. The Atlas should be one of the best command mechs in the game for example, but theres really no command role right now.

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2015 - 09:43 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Jman5, on 07 March 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Even a lurm based assault should be no further than 300 meters from the front line, and it should always have secondary weapons.

An assault should as some mentioned be in the second line, but a very close second line, they are most effective, when in a push, where other team members have distracted the other side, then you Push and push hard, the other team are then faced with letting you hammer at them, or being blow away by the rest of your team.

This is pretty much how assaults should be played.

Quote

If I am with the group say we are in pop shooting mode with the enemy just around the corner or close in I find that people step in front of me allot to jocky for that perfect shot. I stand in a spot where I can take a step out , fire, and back up and suddenly there is a hunchback or stormcrow standing in front of me, this causes me to have to re position witch takes time witch is time I could have spent laying down damage on enemy mechs

This is how you kill teammates don't making any damage to the enemys. You are the blocker for this jordels peaking around corners. It's often boring to w8 a min behind a cover and doing nothing, but having 100% armor to charge up the hurted ones, is much bettter than blocking someones life for a cornershot or 2 which do not kill anything, but take away the only strenght assaults have charge a big pack.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 11 March 2015 - 09:36 PM.

[KraftySOT]

This thread is still a thing?

Its to kill enemy gundams.

[Silra]

Role of a mech is based more on the weaponry it has been outfitted with than its category of light, medium, heavy or assault.

However there are a whole lot of things which can be said, based on how the mechanics of the game and such...

Firstly the team game, if all the fast mechs swarm off somewhere and leave the slower mechs (typically assaults) to be swarmed by the hostile fast mechs... then you're essentially sacrificing your team for your own gain. Everyone knows that light mechs tend to have an advantage dueling out assault mechs, barring some glaring mistake, due to mobility. That's how the game mechanics work and has nothing to do with categorizing assault mech for some role. However this means if the team's light mechs charge enemy assaults, they leave their assaults open for the same maneuver by the enemy lights.... in the end resulting in a fast vs fast fight-out, with the assaults having been sacrificed for it.

Imagine being one of those assault mechs. Would this be fun gameplay experience for you?

This same thing goes the other way around too however.... if the team balls together and does not split, if at those times the assault mech is unwilling to share his armor pool with the rest of the team, hiding at the back and not taking any damage while the team is taking all the damage for him...

Imagine being one of those others on the team. Would this be fun gameplay experience for you?

Focus firing is important mechanic of team games like this, but just as important mechanic is the ability to share armor with your team.

When was the last time you stepped in front of a team mate who shutdown from overheating, to take the shots which were intended for killing him?
(I need to look through my hours of footage and find the clips where I do this stuff and show it off I guess).

So responsibility of assault mechs? The exact same as everyone else on the team: Kill enemies, share armor pool with the team so instead of losing one mech, you have two damaged mechs.

[WazOfOz]

you want assault mech pilots to "chime in" ? perhaps you should try em.

[Vandul]

I play all chassis'. As an assault pilot, I dont lament when the fatties are left behind. A couple of quick notes in lance chat and we move as a group, providing mutual support. Once the enemy commits to their strategy, tactics are adapted as necessary.

As a light pilot, if I have ECM and I see that assault lance off by itself with no coverage, Im going to head over there and get them under the umbrella till they join the group. Unless of course, they are heading off to certain death by themselves, in which case I will shield them as long as I can until its apparent they want to commit Assault Seppuku. Then its YOYO.