59 replies to this topic

[Mirkk Defwode]

dervishx5, on 07 March 2015 - 10:46 PM, said:

We can't have bigger maps because of the scaling issues.

MWLL had bigger maps...same engine...infact older version of the same engine. Same sense of scale used as it also had pseudo infantry combat, mechanized units for tanks and light armor, plus Airborne combat between VTOLs and Aerospace...

Edited by Mirkk Defwode, 10 March 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[Wingbreaker]

Mirkk Defwode, on 10 March 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

MWLL had bigger maps...same engine...infact older version of the same engine. Same sense of scale used as it also had pseudo infantry combat, mechanized units for tanks and light armor, plus Airborne combat between VTOLs and Aerospace...

And it also had spawn camping, Fbombs, and an incredibly laughable sense of balance.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Wingbreaker, on 10 March 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

And it also had spawn camping, Fbombs, and an incredibly laughable sense of balance.

Have to give them credit that they did do well in quite a few areas. And I agree it did have some issues while those could've been worked out over time. This was also a mod rather than a paid development so these people were very much amateurs or professionals doing the work part time. I applaud the work that was done and the quality of the product until it ceased.

None the less with those problems scale of the environment was constantly pushed to have gigantic spaces with variances allowing for a lot of different encounters and flexibility.

[pbiggz]

Mirkk Defwode, on 10 March 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Have to give them credit that they did do well in quite a few areas. And I agree it did have some issues while those could've been worked out over time. This was also a mod rather than a paid development so these people were very much amateurs or professionals doing the work part time. I applaud the work that was done and the quality of the product until it ceased.

None the less with those problems scale of the environment was constantly pushed to have gigantic spaces with variances allowing for a lot of different encounters and flexibility.

MWLL does not hold all the answers, but their maps and quite a bit of their weapon balance (but not all of it) was way better.

[Mirkk Defwode]

pbiggz, on 10 March 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

MWLL does not hold all the answers, but their maps and quite a bit of their weapon balance (but not all of it) was way better.

I agree not the end all, be all. But someone saying there are limitations when others have exceeded that limitation was my point. Be it a development team or a mod team that exceeded it doesn't matter.

Personally I think MWLL using the CryEngine was a sad thing, and think MWO using it as well is somewhat sad. I think Unreal3 or Ego would've been better engines to use. And Beyond that Unreal4 being out now would fantastic.

[Wingbreaker]

Mirkk Defwode, on 10 March 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Have to give them credit that they did do well in quite a few areas. And I agree it did have some issues while those could've been worked out over time. This was also a mod rather than a paid development so these people were very much amateurs or professionals doing the work part time. I applaud the work that was done and the quality of the product until it ceased.

None the less with those problems scale of the environment was constantly pushed to have gigantic spaces with variances allowing for a lot of different encounters and flexibility.

Oh don't get me wrong, I loved the game and admire the work they did.

Hell, I'd prefer a mode in MWO that mimics tech tickets in the future, but I don't think that's viable for a F2P game with hour long matches (easily).

[Mirkk Defwode]

Wingbreaker, on 10 March 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

Oh don't get me wrong, I loved the game and admire the work they did.

Hell, I'd prefer a mode in MWO that mimics tech tickets in the future, but I don't think that's viable for a F2P game with hour long matches (easily).

War Thunder as their primary respawn means actually does a point based system in reverse they have the cap zones and that behavior then have dedicated values associated with the vehicles that you accrue points through combat to earn your respawns. Do poorly right out of the gate...tough luck that's all you get, unless you scored some damage on someone then when that person is defeated you'll earn the assist points and might be able to come back. It's a clever overall mechanic with applied value for the vehicles being brought in making it so your loadouts you want a varied select of mechs from lights to heavies.

[Ace Selin]

YCSLiesmith, on 08 March 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

lmao you've not always done fine in those mechs. for example, you recently did so badly in those mechs that the enemy were able to walk into your spawn and kill you as you dropped.

Whilst i agree i think his choice of mechs is poor for CW, just becuase you are spawn camped doesnt mean you played badly, it rests a lot on the team as a whole. I have dropped as a PUG in games, gotten a dozen kills and the team was annihilated. The end score showed me with most kills, most damage and many of the other PUG members getting 80-300 damage. CW allows PUGs to play who have no real clue as to how to play the game yet, but want the rewards.

[anonymous161]

The maps suck they need more maps that dont make sniping so damn easy, most matches are mostly just a snipe fest or a rush. I understand the tactic but it gets boring. Pretty much it feels like counter strike with all the camping.

You shouldn't have to be part of a 12 man team to make winning doable.

Maybe they should put more turrets around the base add autocannon turrets maybe even ppc ones though I'd vote for light ppc if they ever add them in the game.

Basically cw still sucks you can have good games but most of them are rather boring.

Edited by Darth Bane001, 11 March 2015 - 12:36 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

Darth Bane001, on 11 March 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

The maps suck they need more maps that dont make sniping so damn easy, most matches are mostly just a snipe fest or a rush.

ok here's a question. how do you face a dozen fast moving mechs if they are constantly able to break line of sight and can zip past you at more than twice your larger mechs' top speed? If you get rid of maps that favor snipers you necessarily have maps that favor light rushes. a bunch of guys with good aim coring or legging a light from a mile out is one of the better ways to stop a light rush.

[pbiggz]

Darth Bane001, on 11 March 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

The maps suck they need more maps that dont make sniping so damn easy, most matches are mostly just a snipe fest or a rush. I understand the tactic but it gets boring. Pretty much it feels like counter strike with all the camping.

You shouldn't have to be part of a 12 man team to make winning doable.

Maybe they should put more turrets around the base add autocannon turrets maybe even ppc ones though I'd vote for light ppc if they ever add them in the game.

Basically cw still sucks you can have good games but most of them are rather boring.

This indicates to me that you have no understanding of the issues CW ACTUALLY has, all you know is something is wrong.

[Mirkk Defwode]

YCSLiesmith, on 11 March 2015 - 04:10 AM, said:

ok here's a question. how do you face a dozen fast moving mechs if they are constantly able to break line of sight and can zip past you at more than twice your larger mechs' top speed? If you get rid of maps that favor snipers you necessarily have maps that favor light rushes. a bunch of guys with good aim coring or legging a light from a mile out is one of the better ways to stop a light rush.

I think its less an issue with long sight lines and more an issue with lack of alternative approaches. We're effectively playing on MOBA maps without the benefit of all being relatively equal. Or if you're looking specifically at the popular MOBAs we don't have the jungle to run into and hide.

Spoiler

This design for the DOTA map is effectively the same as the design for Sulfurus Rift


Very similar in nature

Generally speaking MOBA maps are designed for small group competition so having the funnels drives having some sort of action. But that's for 4v4 and all participants are relatively equal. We're using 12v12 with the same map design principle with heavily divergent capabilities and it's making for relatively repetitive gameplay.

Now it's not just about approaches in the map design, it also has a great deal to do with the objectives. Having everything centralized around the defensive teams spawn for the generators and the primary objective is also problematic. As it makes it so if they didn't want to move off that point everyone will just rush in anyhow. Spreading out the objectives would make for added options of the attacking team and the defensive team needing to scout what approach(es) the offensive team is making compared to setting up in a known area or the most ideal approaches as everyone has now settled into.

Spoiler

Magicka Wizard Wars accomplishes this with the same relatively simple map design, but having multiple routes and objectives at the far corners of the map make for an interesting dynamic in gameplay. Respawn is based on the tickets at the top, while owning 2 or more of the cap points drains the oppositions tickets. When killed respawns also occur at the nearest owned position, if you don't own anything they're at random locations on the map near a capture point. This makes for a fairly dynamic and fluid combat system



While I sincerely doubt this map design would work for the current MWO mechanics without some severe changes it does serve as a counter point example to the DOTA/LoL map design we have now with directed lanes. And again, MOBAs are built off having characters with very similar capabilities. While Battletech has more divergent capabilities spread across the units.

Edited by Mirkk Defwode, 11 March 2015 - 08:38 AM.

[pbiggz]

here was my cw map suggestion for the current attack/defend game mode

[Mirkk Defwode]

pbiggz, on 11 March 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

here was my cw map suggestion for the current attack/defend game mode

I like this general idea, but it needs to go bigger, I'd also add a 4th gate to the inner area, or another wall on the outside of the city with additional gates and turrets, then the defender spawn I'd put away from the Omega.

Having defenders drop right on top if it is pretty bad. They need their own dedicated drop zones that are spread out a bit, just like the attackers need drop zones away from each other.

[pbiggz]

that map was supposed to be similar to current cw maps, the point i was making was small changes (like getting rid of the lanes idea) would have a huge positive effect, im working on something else though, ill post it up here shortly.

[pbiggz]

So the main base has 3 gates, but the defenders spawn on a high up cliff with plenty of space which can't be camped. They can get off that plateau, but cant get back on top once they drop off. Same story for the attackers spawn.

In addition to the main bases there are 3 capturable outposts. To open the gates the attackers must hold at least two outposts for a total of 10 minutes (culminative). Once that requirement is met, all 3 gates are opened.

In addition, the map is broken into 4 zones. You can drop at any point on the map in each of those zones provided your team controls the base in that area. If not, the active anti air guns at each base prevent your team from dropping there. Should you capture the base, the opposite is true. The first drop is always on the set spawn points, to prevent attackers from being ganked by 12 defenders dropping directly on top of them. In addition, you cannot drop in the opposite team's spawn zone (dark green high terrain). If a team controls no anti air guns/no bases, then they must spawn on their main spawn zone. This means the attacker must take a base in order to secure a drop zone outside their first drop site, and will never be able to drop directly into the enemy base, even when all 3 zones are captured. The base is a separate zone with another anti air gun in it which the attackers cannot secure.

Another thing to note, is that the attackers, once they spawn on their high terrain, can choose to operate outside the walls, rather than spawn right in their base and be forced to wait until the attackers enter.

Lastly, for this map to work, it would have to be quite large, perhaps not quite alpine size, but close, additionally, while alpine has high mountains and commanding sight lines, this map is relatively flat, and there are few places with sight lines that see across the map if any, this means in order to fight, teams must both deal with flat terrain, and use the low hills and cliffs to their advantage. Speed matters here, there are multiple locations where a team can be flanked and destroyed. The focus of this map is mobile warfare, a team that settles in for a slugfest from the main base will find it very difficult to defend omega from 48 fresh mechs, while a team that exits their base early in the game with faster mechs and attempts to do damage to the attackers, slowing or preventing them from capturing the outposts, will find it much easier to defend against between 12-24 mechs if the attackers manage to get the gates open, while on the flip side, attackers that can play aggressively and quickly take objectives and deal massive damage to defenders will find it much easier to take omega at the end of the game.

edit: where the road turns a shade of blue-grey, those are tunnels.

Edited by pbiggz, 12 March 2015 - 01:04 PM.

[Khanesh Loral]

So here' my two cents:

While yes, it sucks to be on the receiving end of a camp, I am all for the tactic if you can pull it off. But I was looking up the lore of he Leopard class dropship, and saw the weapons loadout. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Leopard

Perhaps the solution is to give it the full loadout, but have it operate as such:

It launches, ONCE on approach, 1 of each of the LRMS at the FARTHEST mech targetable from its intended drop point. Simultaneously, it fires its 2 PPC's at the CLOSEST mech targetable at its intended drop point. From then on, it behaves as it does, but utilizes the 5 larges and 7 mediums instead of its current out put.

I think this would help to eliminate spawn camping, but also encourage better tactics, so you time your advance to NOT be in the path of 3-5 dropships at the same time and get wrecked

[Mandrakerootes]

Khanesh Loral, on 12 March 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

So here' my two cents:

While yes, it sucks to be on the receiving end of a camp, I am all for the tactic if you can pull it off. But I was looking up the lore of he Leopard class dropship, and saw the weapons loadout. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Leopard

Perhaps the solution is to give it the full loadout, but have it operate as such:

It launches, ONCE on approach, 1 of each of the LRMS at the FARTHEST mech targetable from its intended drop point. Simultaneously, it fires its 2 PPC's at the CLOSEST mech targetable at its intended drop point. From then on, it behaves as it does, but utilizes the 5 larges and 7 mediums instead of its current out put.

I think this would help to eliminate spawn camping, but also encourage better tactics, so you time your advance to NOT be in the path of 3-5 dropships at the same time and get wrecked

This cannot work for the simple reason that the three drop points cover almost all of the space on sulfurus and boreal. Meaning no matter where the attacker positions itself(considering its a favorable position for him) they will be able to get shot at by the drop ships. This HEAVILY discourages actually killing enemies because coupled with the turrets the 48 vs 48 match is simply not fair anymore. This change should result in loads of light rushes on sulfurous and more light rushes on boreal with hellebore remaining the same in playstyle.

NO, what they are working on is simply the better solution. Besides all that, if a PUG team gets camped by a PUG team bad luck they are simply better than you. If they get camped by an organized team, they probably would have lost no matter what. And if two organized teams play against each other it rarely comes to spawn camping, unless the defending team is poorly coordinated.

[Joey Tankblaster]

Spawn camping is a result of bad map design. This is in particular true for Sulphur as you spawn directly in the path towards the primary objective (e.g. coming from gamma or alpha gate). Change that and it won't be much of an issue. On boreal its different. As mentioned somewhere in this topic, if you allow the attacking force to attack the spawn points, the battle has been already lost before. There is enough cover to defend on those sniper hills. Surrender that position to the attackers and the battle is almost over.

I think the developers are well aware of this issue since spawn points on the new map are far away from omega on a plateau which is a quite elegant solution to keep those attackers away from spawn points without a LOF. The question is rather why they didn't think of that before. Map design is really, really bad in MWO.

Btw. spawn camping is not only an issue as defender. Attackers get spawn camped as well.

Yesterday in a counterattack mode on sulphur as attacker, a ghost bear unit rushed towards our spawn points going through alpha or beta while we attacked through gamma. We killed omega and then the clans one after another when they returned to their base. It was a complete tactical mistake as we seddled our asses on two spawn points and farmed them. This could have been prevented by defending the gates right where they are.

[Ax2Grind]

jeirhart, on 07 March 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

2. Which map you will get is based on which sector is being fought over. There is rumored to be certain planets with only one map type but I have yet to hear of any of these being confirmed. Starting from the left and counting the sectors around circle:
1, 4, 7, 10, 13 are all Boreal Vault
2, 5, 8, 11, 14 are all Sulfurous Rift
3, 6, 9, 12, 15 are all Hellebore Springs

There are indeed certain planets that have given only one map type. There was one contested between Wolf And CGB that was nothing but Sulfur and we had another very early on between FRR and CGB that did nothing but Boreal. It's pretty rare though and in most cases you can count on the 1-2-3 pip allocation as you outlined above.