138 replies to this topic

[MechWarrior3671771]

More ECM mechs means more scout spotters, more BAP, more TAG, more Narc.

I like the information warfare. So much more complexity than "meet in the middle and mash buttons till we die"

[PitchBlackYeti]

Fenrisulvyn, on 08 March 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

More ECM mechs means more scout spotters, more BAP, more TAG, more Narc.

I like the information warfare. So much more complexity than "meet in the middle and mash buttons till we die"

True but then you have to count on the matchmaker to provide your team with all the necessary tols...

[Kalo Shin]

FupDup, on 08 March 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

If you gave each of those mechs ECM access, they'd become even more popular and more effective than they already are.

I'm sorry but I don't think this thread is about "What ifs", Fupdup. ECM Does not make a mech inherently overpowered like everyone in this thread is implying (Cicada 3m anyone?). And there are certainly effective ways of dealing with it that people just don't care to do because I guess it affects their PPA's.

[Kjudoon]

Fenrisulvyn, on 08 March 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

More ECM mechs means more scout spotters, more BAP, more TAG, more Narc.

I like the information warfare. So much more complexity than "meet in the middle and mash buttons till we die"

But but but... mashing buttons while chest bumping is the whole of Mechwarrior, right?!

Besides, we need smaller maps so nobody can hide or use tactics. They can only rush middle and die.

Oh and cheering throng sound effects so my ego will be sated and I can have my participant trophy for what a great person I am.

If we're really lucky we can turn this into Mortal Mechwarrior!

Edited by Kjudoon, 08 March 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[Richard Warts]

Stefka Kerensky, on 08 March 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

Because a weapon system, now, is completely useless.
While in previous mw games, TT, lore, etc. isn't.

Completely. Dead. Wrong. How bad do you have to be if you can't even LRM correctly?!? If you can't figure out how to negate or counter ECM's effects then I don't know what to tell you.

red devil2, on 08 March 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

An alrwady useless weapon system at higher elo becomes useless.. Interesting. Do you know why it's useless? because it's inefficient, not because there is the ecm. Only mediocre player use lrm boats whereas you can run laser / ballistic builds! The latter only if you are IS, btw.

LRM are useless because we have covers, not because there's the ECM. at lower elo players don't understand yet how to deal with LRMs but, as they improve they usually learn and see LRM boats as easy kills.

Do you understand that I can stay in cover, leave it, fire a gauss and fall back while you are still trying to lock me?

really, if you think that ecm is a problem you have to skill yourself up and learn how to use TAG, UAV and BAP.

The Ecm is a good tool because it hides your payload and movements, not because slows down dumb players that can't even use a TAG.

^^

This.

A thousand times this.

[Kjudoon]

Tabu 73, on 08 March 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Completely. Dead. Wrong. How bad do you have to be if you can't even LRM correctly?!? If you can't figure out how to negate or counter ECM's effects then I don't know what to tell you.

I dunno. I've spectated and seen more than a few videos from talented light pilots and brawlers who try their hands and don't LRM correctly. Are they bad pilots? Nope, some are quite excellent in their preferred style. Are they competent LRMers? Barely to no.

It's a different skill set, and some people do not have the temperment for it.

Edited by Kjudoon, 08 March 2015 - 11:48 AM.

[Davers]

As long as LRMs and streaks are 'auto-hit' weapons then ECM shouldn't be changed. There are already plenty of counters to ECM.

[Strykewolf]

I've lost count on the number of folks that I've spectated that walked past a 'no-dorito' mech simply because there was no red to tell them it was the enemy they just went by.

(ETA) Mk I eyeball is rather effective at countering ecm.

Edited by Strykewolf, 08 March 2015 - 11:50 AM.

[Kjudoon]

red devil2, on 08 March 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

really, if you think that ecm is a problem you have to skill yourself up and learn how to use TAG, UAV and BAP.

The Ecm is a good tool because it hides your payload and movements, not because slows down dumb players that can't even use a TAG.

I would like to then propose the inverse of this logic. You need to stop using ECM to protect you from LRMs and other mechs. You've got cover and speed and map positioning. L2P at a better level.

After all, ECM is a no skill item that in my experience using it gives people sloppy play skills because they depend on it too much. Kinda insulting, isn't it when put in that perspective that is constantly used towards LRMers?


Just sayin'.

Edited by Kjudoon, 08 March 2015 - 11:53 AM.

[Richard Warts]

Kjudoon, on 08 March 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

I dunno. I've spectated and seen more than a few videos from talented light pilots and brawlers who try their hands and don't LRM correctly. Are they bad pilots? Nope, some are quite excellent in their preferred style. Are they competent LRMers? Barely to no.

It's a different skill set, and some people do not have the temperment for it.

I agree. Not many people know how to LRM properly.

Edited by Tabu 73, 08 March 2015 - 12:08 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

Kjudoon, on 08 March 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

But but but... mashing buttons while chest bumping is the whole of Mechwarrior, right?!

Besides, we need smaller maps so nobody can hide or use tactics. They can only rush middle and die.

Oh and cheering throng sound effects so my ego will be sated and I can have my participant trophy for what a great person I am.

If we're really lucky we can turn this into Mortal Mechwarrior!

That's apparently what people with PGI's ear have been pushing down PGi's throats for months as I'm sure they couldn't have come up with this solaris shite on their lonesome right ?
While I detected the sarcasm I think you need to be more obvious with it

[STEF_]

Kjudoon, on 08 March 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

I dunno. I've spectated and seen more than a few videos from talented light pilots and brawlers who try their hands and don't LRM correctly. Are they bad pilots? Nope, some are quite excellent in their preferred style. Are they competent LRMers? Barely to no.

It's a different skill set, and some people do not have the temperment for it.

What skills are you talking about lurmers, if I have 5 - 6 seconds to take cover when missiles start to fly???

[Koniving]

MauttyKoray, on 08 March 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

Angel ECM counters Artemis IV and V, Beagle AP, Bloodhound AP (and both clan equivelents), C3 Master/Slaves, Streak Locks, and Narc beacons. Apparently streaks can still be fired but work as standard SRMs without being able to lock.

Guardian ECM is supposed to block Artemis IV, C3/C3i networks, NARC beacons, and Beagle AP. The equipped mech will be aware of the jamming occurring though. Both SSRMs and LRMs can still achieve lock normally. Its not supposed to create an invisible bubble, that position is meant to be filled by the future Stealth Armor.

On the Angel ECM -- like Guardian ECM, all locks can still be achieved. In the novels it works like this:

• If you enter the enemy ECM field without bap, you will be completely oblivious to the fact that you did because There Is No Way To Know (unless you tried to contact someone -- which you wouldn't know even then except for the fact that no one will answer you because no one will hear you)!
  
• Attempt to fire from either outside or inside the field.
  
  • can achieve lock? Yes.
    
  • Delays? Depends, but generally no delay in actually acquiring the lock if it is 97 kph or slower. Locusts, even without ECM, are depicted as very difficult to lock onto because of their speed (129 kph).
    
  • Can fire streaks? Yes.
    
  • If outside the field, does streak home in? Yes. However the instant it touches the field, the circuits inside become fried and the missile will be locked in its last action (for example if the missile was making a course correction of a semi-sharp turn, the fins would be locked in that state, causing the missile to continue to do that course change (soon going in a big circle) until it hits something or runs out of fuel. So it doesn't really dumb fire, it just turns into a rocket [which is about the same thing but it starts out as a missile].
    
  • If fired inside the field: The streak's guidance system fries immediately.
    
    • Note: Alternate explanation also in the novels, different manufacturer and is frequently used in reference to Artemis-enhanced missiles: The communication between the launcher's systems and the missiles is severed when missiles enter the ECM field, preventing communication and corrective updates in course. For streaks (specifically Zone-Tone brand by Matabushi Incorporated and the Valiant Javelin brand by Valiant Systems), the missile is entirely guided by the launcher's on-board computer and when either the mech or the missile enters an Angel ECM field, even for a second all communication between the launcher and missile ceases and cannot be re-established. It becomes used as a plot point due to the missiles going rogue and dealing lethal friendly fire.

Also to note: Standard SRMs in BT are not unguided, and according to BattleTechnology (FASA, 1987) which is only recently non-canonized by Catalyst Games (which bought it from WizKids if I'm not mistake, who bought it from FASA), SRMs and LRMs have the same simplistic guidance capabilities. Just very basic.

Edited by Koniving, 08 March 2015 - 12:21 PM.

[Mcgral18]

It would help if we had gECM, and not the Magic Jesus Box, which combines features of gECM, aECM, and Stealth Armour, as well as the magical effect of stopping LRM locks entirely, which was never a feature.

This is for the low cost of 2 crit slots and 1.5 tons; that's as opposed to 2 tons, 14 crit slots and generating 1 heat per second.

The Magic Jesus Box is truly a technological marvel.


Weapon taxes are always fun. Another point to MWLL, which doesn't stop weapon locks from happening, just increases the lock time. They are separate from target locks.

[Variant1]

Mcgral18, on 08 March 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

It would help if we had gECM, and not the Magic Jesus Box, which combines features of gECM, aECM, and Stealth Armour, as well as the magical effect of stopping LRM locks entirely, which was never a feature.
This is for the low cost of 2 crit slots and 1.5 tons; that's as opposed to 2 tons, 14 crit slots and generating 1 heat per second.
The Magic Jesus Box is truly a technological marvel.
Weapon taxes are always fun. Another point to MWLL, which doesn't stop weapon locks from happening, just increases the lock time. They are separate from target locks.

What is this magical jesus box you speak of? all we have a is a 1.5 box that gets countered by a 0.5 ton, 1.5 ton(which can be equiped on any mech like ams only not mech variant restricted like ecm) and a 3 ton.

[Mcgral18]

Variant1, on 08 March 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

What is this magical jesus box you speak of? all we have a is a 1.5 box that gets countered by a 0.5 ton, 1.5 ton(which can be equiped on any mech like ams only not mech variant restricted like ecm) and a 3 ton.

I think you mean 1 ton, 1.5 ton and 6/7 ton.

Doesn't stop the Magic Jesus Box though. No heat, passive effects, and magical features.

Edited by Mcgral18, 08 March 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[Variant1]

Mcgral18, on 08 March 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

I think you mean 1 ton, 1.5 ton and 6/7 3.5/4 ton.

Doesn't stop the Magic Jesus Box though. No heat, passive effects, and magical features.

that because the magic jesus box doesnt exist, theres the problem.
edit:spelling

Edited by Variant1, 08 March 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[charov]

Kjudoon, on 08 March 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

I would like to then propose the inverse of this logic. You need to stop using ECM to protect you from LRMs and other mechs. You've got cover and speed and map positioning. L2P at a better level.

After all, ECM is a no skill item that in my experience using it gives people sloppy play skills because they depend on it too much. Kinda insulting, isn't it when put in that perspective that is constantly used towards LRMers?


Just sayin'.

Guess what, I use raddep on each of my mechs and it's usually more than enough to save me from dumb lrm boats. Only when there's a scout I actually need to move to cover.

Sometimes I use lrms myself on a maddog, just for fun. I carry 3xLRM5, 3xSRM6, 4xML and a TAG. It's a terrible build but it works quite well because I never engege if I the distance from my target is greater than 500/600m. I use lrm only while closing in and while tagging my target. Then I brawl at ~200m so both my misseles works at best. And guess what again, I don't care if my target has a useless ecm because I have a tag and I'm not spamming my missiles from 1000m! That's the problem with lots of lrm noobs: they want to fire their missiles at max range and cry if they can't. Ecm is a useless device if you use your brain and counter it.

Btw, if you use your brain you quickly realize that a ppc, gr or large laser are better than any lrm boat.

[HARDKOR]

HiasRGB, on 08 March 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Cant change ECM-Mechanic, before change LRM-Mechanic.

Use real Weapons and you will hit ECM-Mechs

Shared targeting has got to go, before you change anything.

The way our radar currently works, should only be possible in mechs with a C3 targeting computer. They need to put this into the game(command mechs like Atlas have a role here), make ECM only work on the mech it is on, and rebalance LRM's to live mostly in a line of sight locks only mode.

I think the reason they haven't done this is that this game is built to coddle the solo player. The entire concept of shared ECM and the current reward system is to guide players to group up and act as a team. It is effective enough in this respect, that most people don't bother actually joining a team, because they can just jump into their spot in the herd with little regard to actual teamplay and still achieve success due to the way the game is influencing their behavior. LRM's are very literally, derp herding devices.

[Mcgral18]

Variant1, on 08 March 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

that because the magic jesus box doesnt exist, theres the problem.
edit:spelling

Oh, but it does exist.

You're just being a teensy bit daft in defending your Jesus Box.