138 replies to this topic

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

One problem. I can see across the map with my tweaked graphics settings and recognize ecm mechs from far away... Opposed to 90% of players who use default settings and see about 400 meters thanks to all the **** this game want to distract you with in the name of "immersion"

[Bongo TauKat]

For the affect one mech argument, read the table top rules.

[HellJumper]

Sooo many replies...my head hurts reading them

let me be clear..i am not asking ecm to be implemented differently (it can be disscussed separately)..just asking to hold on ecm mechs for some time and bring chassis that dont have ecm

I am sure a clan assault with ecm will come as well (if one exists)

[Variant1]

Alistair Winter, on 08 March 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

1.Why are counters not being used? Because a simple cost-benefit analysis shows that ECM is vastly superior to any alternatives and counters.
At 1.5 tons, ECM is infinitely better protection than AMS.
At 1 ton, TAG requires constant reticule on target, no torso twisting, and it takes a lot of time before you can actually get a target lock against an ECM mech.
At 1.5 tons, BAP is the same weight as ECM, yet only counters it at very close range, while offering relatively modest bonuses otherwise.
At 3+ tons, NARC is a lot heavier than ECM, ammo-based and requires hitting your target with the slowest missiles in creation.
At 6 or 7 tons, the PPC is an option limited to a few specific builds and only counters ECM for 5 seconds if you're able to hit your target.

2.Meanwhile, ECM is a magic jesus box that you just plug in and it works automatically untill countered. You don't have to aim it, you don't have to activate it, you don't have to think about it at all.

3.It's a very simple thought experiment to figure out if a certain piece of equipment is OP. For example:
If a mech can carry 1 or 2 AMS, do players always equip AMS on that mech? No.
If a mech can carry BAP, do players always equip BAP on that mech? No.
If a mech can carry jump jets, do players always equip jump jets on that mech? No.*
If a mech can carry CASE.... No.
If a mech can carry command console... No.
If a mech can carry targeting computer... No.
If a mech can carry TAG... No.
If a mech can carry NARC... No.
If a mech can carry ECM, do players always equip ECM on that mech? Yes!

1. Superior? How can it be superior when it gets hard countered by multiple counters?
ams: Does it work still if its within range of bap? yes. Does it worked if your being taged/narced? yes. Guess what ecm isint immune to those counters means that argument goes out the window
Tag: Okay it takes time to aim it at someone under ecm, but unlike narc you don't have to hit the ecm carrier to disable ecm, instead it takes off ecm on the covered mech. This can prove deadly if you use tag when your with your teammates or get behind the enemy team.
BAP: 240 m is hardly close range (unless your an lrm baot), in fact it still outranges ecm(180), and goes through walls nonetheless(just like ecm). So bap is actually way better to countering ecm in everyway and even increases your radar range as a bonus.
Narc: this piece of gold is all about high risk, high reward. Arguably its not that hard to hit targets with the narc missile, it just takes some practice. If this hits an ecm carrier it practically spells gg for the enemy team.
PPC: Unlike the other types of equipment, this weapon does damage so it makes sense that its use is limited. This is a poor mans anti-ecm

2. Again with this magic jesus box. The same thing can be said with the satan box (bap), it works automatically and weighs the same (what a coincidence) and unlike the magic jesus box any mech can equip it. Oh btw ECM does require micro management especially if one team has an extra ecm, that extra ecm usually goes counter mode against the enemy ecm.

3. This thought experiment seems quite arbitrary: It automatically assumes that everyone will always equip ecm on a mech that can carry it, when in fact i have seen people who don't equip it on ecm hardpoints, although i question as to why some people do it it all comes down to preference. If this thought experiment were fact then no one would play the mech variants that have no ecm.

"Even if it means sacrificing extra hardpoints to get the ECM omnipod, players will almost always equip ECM if they can. It's a no brainer. If equipping a weapon or piece of equipment is a no-brainer, then it's probably not balanced properly."
It is a brainer, it takes a lot of though when choosing to equip an ecm. Do i sacrifice some firepower/armor/DHS for the ability to negate one weapon while at the same time face multiple possible counters? or do i use cover which costs 0 tons but means im at the mercy of mm to not give me caustic/alpine or a teammate that does have ecm? The same can be said about high alpha pinpoint builds yet a lot of people still build non meta builds and just have fun with the game.

[wanderer]

Quote

But the spotter cant shoot and spot.

That hasn't been true in tabletop for over a decade- spotters can most certainly fire while spotting in BattleTech.

Also, regarding the whole Beagle vs ECM thing:

ECM works fine at range, a Beagle only cuts through ECM if it's close. Three quesses where ECM does most of it's damage (hint: it's not inside 240m). Now, if Beagles cut through ECM at range? Heck yeah, we'd install them on everything and ECM would much more rarely be an issue.

Edited by wanderer, 09 March 2015 - 07:38 AM.

[Artgathan]

Interestingly, AMS used to have a hard counter: if you hit it with a powerful weapon it would just fall off the mech carrying it (for instance, a PPC blast would send it careening into the sky team-Rocket style). I'm not sure if this is still in the game, as the last time I observed this was at the beginning of Open Beta.

[Deathlike]

Artgathan, on 09 March 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

Interestingly, AMS used to have a hard counter: if you hit it with a powerful weapon it would just fall off the mech carrying it (for instance, a PPC blast would send it careening into the sky team-Rocket style). I'm not sure if this is still in the game, as the last time I observed this was at the beginning of Open Beta.

Technically, it's called crit seeking with weapons that deal 10 or more pts of damage on an exposed part of armor.

It's still there.

[wanderer]

Blowing off AMS?

Nope, not now or any time recently.

Heck, I was here when they introed AMS and up to now, I hadn't heard of that. Ever.

Edit: Critical hits notwithstanding.

Edited by wanderer, 09 March 2015 - 09:17 AM.

[Sorbic]

Variant1, on 09 March 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

1. Superior? How can it be superior when it gets hard countered by multiple counters?
ams: Does it work still if its within range of bap? yes. Does it worked if your being taged/narced? yes. Guess what ecm isint immune to those counters means that argument goes out the window
Tag: Okay it takes time to aim it at someone under ecm, but unlike narc you don't have to hit the ecm carrier to disable ecm, instead it takes off ecm on the covered mech. This can prove deadly if you use tag when your with your teammates or get behind the enemy team.
BAP: 240 m is hardly close range (unless your an lrm baot), in fact it still outranges ecm(180), and goes through walls nonetheless(just like ecm). So bap is actually way better to countering ecm in everyway and even increases your radar range as a bonus.
Narc: this piece of gold is all about high risk, high reward. Arguably its not that hard to hit targets with the narc missile, it just takes some practice. If this hits an ecm carrier it practically spells gg for the enemy team.
PPC: Unlike the other types of equipment, this weapon does damage so it makes sense that its use is limited. This is a poor mans anti-ecm

2. Again with this magic jesus box. The same thing can be said with the satan box (bap), it works automatically and weighs the same (what a coincidence) and unlike the magic jesus box any mech can equip it. Oh btw ECM does require micro management especially if one team has an extra ecm, that extra ecm usually goes counter mode against the enemy ecm.

3. This thought experiment seems quite arbitrary: It automatically assumes that everyone will always equip ecm on a mech that can carry it, when in fact i have seen people who don't equip it on ecm hardpoints, although i question as to why some people do it it all comes down to preference. If this thought experiment were fact then no one would play the mech variants that have no ecm.

"Even if it means sacrificing extra hardpoints to get the ECM omnipod, players will almost always equip ECM if they can. It's a no brainer. If equipping a weapon or piece of equipment is a no-brainer, then it's probably not balanced properly."
It is a brainer, it takes a lot of though when choosing to equip an ecm. Do i sacrifice some firepower/armor/DHS for the ability to negate one weapon while at the same time face multiple possible counters? or do i use cover which costs 0 tons but means im at the mercy of mm to not give me caustic/alpine or a teammate that does have ecm? The same can be said about high alpha pinpoint builds yet a lot of people still build non meta builds and just have fun with the game.

1. It's passive equipment that can be temporarily hard counted or can be set to counter. TAG takes extra time (even more so with multiple enemy ECM) that good opponents will cut short. ECM just does it's thing AND counters TAG if the tagging mech is within it's bubble. Which never made any darn sense considering it's a freaking laser beam...
BAP I agree that it's in a decent place atm but 240 range is a bad place for LRM boats to be.
Narc Can be devastating or mostly wasted tonnage. ECM is never a waste. I've hit folks with Narc and felt bad for them. Then with other teams (little/no LRMs or oblivious) I've wasted 5 tons and 4 slots. ATM with some teams having 4 or so ECM narc is very easily counted even when you hit an ECM mech. Plus using narc on a LRM boat is meh at best.
PPC. I agree.

"Do i sacrifice some firepower/armor/DHS for the ability to negate one weapon" ECM mechs don't usually give up much/anything for it. Plus it counters two weapons, stealth's you and others for unhindered movement, blocks/slows paperdoll info and can counter other ECM. Hindering a player getting paper doll info can be a huge benefit.

atm I would be happy enough with MM divvying up ECM more fairly across teams. I'll see some matches with 4 on one team and the other matchs the enemy has zero or 1. Oh and stopping that ECM cancels TAG foofoo.

[Artgathan]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Technically, it's called crit seeking with weapons that deal 10 or more pts of damage on an exposed part of armor.

It's still there.

Oh no, I'm talking about hitting the physical model while that component still had armor. I realize that you can crit it out, but you could knock it off the mech's body with a direct hit.

wanderer, on 09 March 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

Blowing off AMS?

Nope, not now or any time recently.

Heck, I was here when they introed AMS and up to now, I hadn't heard of that. Ever.

Edit: Critical hits notwithstanding.

I only saw it happen once (and I think it was because I was goofing around with a friend and blasted him with a PPC within 90m) maybe it was a bug?

[Deathlike]

Artgathan, on 09 March 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Oh no, I'm talking about hitting the physical model while that component still had armor. I realize that you can crit it out, but you could knock it off the mech's body with a direct hit.

I dunno... must've been something in Closed Beta or something I had paid little to no attention to in Open Beta.

It's just a bad idea to destroy AMS in combat if that were possible (it would be cool, but it would be bad for balance and hitboxes).

Imagine how this would be told to our "lurm overlords". "Shoot off the AMS PLZ."

Then again, I don't worry about LRMs and AMS.

[Tuefel Hunden]

Wait... Do you really want Table Top rules? Or is what you mean to say is that you want to cherry pick the rules you like? Cause, I really don't think you want canon applied evenly.

[B0oN]

In case of LRM vs. ECM : Dumbfire ?

[Mcgral18]

Rad Hanzo, on 09 March 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

In case of LRM vs. ECM : Dumbfire ?

If they were wire guided, that could be a choice.

As it stands, dumbfire is absolutely worthless unless you're fighting a Derp standing still for over 10 seconds.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 09 March 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

If they were wire guided, that could be a choice.

As it stands, dumbfire is absolutely worthless unless you're fighting a Derp standing still for over 10 seconds.

I recall there was a man in a Cicada had suggested this.

Of course, he was the same man who thought both Cool Shots weren't enough to cool 2 ERPPCs that generated 24 pts of total heat back in Open Beta.

So, good luck with that.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 March 2015 - 12:15 PM.

[Barantor]

Tuefel Hunden, on 09 March 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

Wait... Do you really want Table Top rules? Or is what you mean to say is that you want to cherry pick the rules you like? Cause, I really don't think you want canon applied evenly.

I wouldn't mind it, but I doubt folks could handle it.

[wanderer]

There's a helluva lot that MWO abandoned even the spirit of the game for which would be fertile grounds for new MWO concepts and balance.

Take the big balancer in TT: heat penalties. They don't exist in MWO, other than 100%=shutdown + extended shutdown/override melts stuff.

[CDLord HHGD]

Man, you should have been here a year and a half ago.... You think it's bad NOW? It's nothin now.....

[Dirkdaring]

HellJumper, on 08 March 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

The game is turning into Ecm counter/ disrupt mechs.

we have enough atm in the game..after wave three lets not have more ecm mechs..

Fine. But first fix LRM indirect fire rules. Spotting for another unit is WAY too accurate. Rules state that there is modifiers to hit if the spotting unit even attacks.

Right now I'm loving it, LRMs are finally not filling the sky in ezmode.