138 replies to this topic

[cSand]

I guess I don't see the problem people have with ECM

It's not magic easy win - it's easy to counter in a variety of ways, even if you don't counter it it's not the end of the world


I will say this though and maybe someone can confirm, people can switch ECM mode really quick (spam the J key) and it makes them impossible to lock even by a mech with BAP within the proper range

[Tennex]

Since Seismic Sensor has become the de facto radar (of the olden days).

More Information warfare elements should interact with this de facto radar (seismic sensor)
For example BAP should increase the range of seismic sensor.
Light mechs should have a longer range on seismic sensor.

Guardian ECM should should loose its LRM/ssRM jamming functions. And instead, jam seismic sensors. While doing all the things its supposed to in lore (prevent target relaying to friendly, interpreting with BAP etc.)

Edited by Tennex, 08 March 2015 - 02:23 PM.

[cSand]

Tennex, on 08 March 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

Since Seismic Sensor has become the de facto radar.

Guardian ECM should should loose its LRM/ssRM jamming functions. And instead, jam seismic sensors. While doing all the things its supposed to in lore (prevent target relaying to friendly, interpreting with BAP etc.)

More Information warfare elements should interact with this de facto radar (seismic sensor)
For example BAP should increase the range of seismic sensor.
Light mechs should have a longer range on seismic sensor.

how does one jam vibrations through the ground?

[Tennex]

cSand, on 08 March 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

how does one jam vibrations through the ground?

By jamming the electronics that sense these vibrations.

Edited by Tennex, 08 March 2015 - 02:30 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

cSand, on 08 March 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

how does one jam vibrations through the ground?

[Malleus011]

The OP's point is reasonable, well argued, and fits in fine with the source material of the game. Implementing the fix he suggests would improve overall gameplay and significantly improve the new player experience.

That means we'll likely never see it happen, of course, but it's still a good idea.

[Koniving]

kamiko kross, on 08 March 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

I can see where you are coming from PP but I don't think it would enhance EVERYONE's gameplay. It would enhance streak and lrm user's experience which I'm not 100% sure is a good idea.....

So after fixing ECM, we could have streaks work as a cross between what they are now and this (while still having the current spread).


Before "Angel ECM" made it into MWO, we had LRMs and Streaks that we could dodge.

[Variant1]

stjobe, on 08 March 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

There's been lots of changes since then, of course, but the main fact remains: ECM is badly implemented, badly balanced, has little to no connection to lore ("a BattleTech game", remember?), and needs a major overhaul.

interesting just like lrms.

Knight Magus, on 08 March 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

Let's hope that PGI never makes Angel ECM - which is superior to GECM which is already too powerful.

[Something Wrong]

I really don't care about ECM to be honest. Maybe because 99% of my mechs involve pure energy/ballistic weapons loadouts, but even so unless I'm running a goofy all LRM/all S-SRM build, ECM doesn't bother me in the slightest and even when they do, I don't care. It's part of the game.

[Jin Ma]

How many tons is the Angel ECM compared to Guardian ECM?

[Sjorpha]

Wildstreak, on 08 March 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

How is it only a certain, small part of the playerbase matters? The whole should matter, if you will not acknowledge the rest then there is no point listening.

It isn't that only comp players matter, I am certainly not good enough to be amongst them myself. That isn't the point.

The point is that competition at high levels are what explores the peaks in the landscape of possibilities of any given game. I'm not arguing that ECM is only balanced in comp games, I'm arguing that comp games are one of the things shedding light on the truth, which is that ECM is nowhere near strong enough to make a bad mech good, not on any level of playing.

Quote

I have brought it and sure enough, my team W/L went up just from bringing ECM and knowing where to position it. All I needed to do, bring ECM, put it in the right spot, better chance of team victory, stats proved it, they just got ignored because too many focus on damage only.

I simply think that the impression of ECM being OP is mostly a delusion stemming from the annoyance of facing it, my own experience supports that and i have nothing to compare with except the anecdotes of other players.

I may be wrong and I will change my mind if there is good data at any given moment to support the idea that ECM is OP, but it hasn't been presented to me yet. Until then I'm not going to bother with imaginary problems.

Quote

So no, it is not the annoyance of facing it, it is the fact that bringing it increases the chance of team victories in addition to dumbing down the complexity of the game.

It increases a teams chances of winning the same way bringing a healer character with your RPG party does, that doesn't mean healers are overpowered, it just means you are better off with one than without one.

Maybe two healers are better than one in some cases, but it very quickly has diminishing returns. It's the same with ECM, two ECM per wave in CW is enough, more isn't really worth any kind of tradeoff. The fact that bringing a couple mechs that can do X is a good idea isn't actually a problem.

Also I don't think it dumbs down the complexity of the game, how exactly? In my mind the more ECM mechs the opposing team have the more complex it is to fight them, because there is no easymode targeting system to use as a crutch for my awareness and visual targeting.

It's not that I'm satisfied either, in my mind targeting should be a lot harder than it is now. There should be entire maps and areas where your sensors are completely dysfunctional because of interference, where only BAP/CAP equipped mechs would have a very limited sensor range (hey, a real niche for BAP!), and there should also be things that temporarily caused false doritos on your radar... Where any mech could hide in smoke and darkness, and where only your own situational awareness mattered.

That would decrease the power of ECM btw, since where all sensors are off or functioning poorly there is no point in having ECM because it makes no difference.

Edited by Sjorpha, 08 March 2015 - 03:03 PM.

[Dauntless Blint]

This idea will break the game due to LRM spam.I don't know how your going to balance that?

[Lyoto Machida]

Wildstreak, on 08 March 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

You forgot NARC and TAG cutting through ECM.

I would settle for changing the stealth radius to allow medium range fire yes LRMs would be useful but not up to the full 1000m, LRM users would actually have to get in closer than the preferred 'sit way in the back mode' to actually shoot.


No one is, in an open discussion you can discuss anything within reason.

No one with any actual skill at using LRMs are shooting them from 1000m away so I guess it would reduce the amount of LRM noobs out there at the very least.

[Artgathan]

Prosperity Park, on 08 March 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Let's touch on a few points that have been brought-up thus far in discussion:
4. "Why remove the only information-denial tool we have in the game?"

It's a replacement of a low-population, high effectivity system with a less-effective system that can be employed in larger numbers. Derestricting ECM would let anyone use it, or at least many more Mechs would be able to use it. So you're trading low-frequency concentrated power for diffused power.

My counterpoint: as scout mechs (those equipped with BAP and Adv. Sensor Range) would essentially negate ECM (if I'm understanding your proposal correctly), the new Guardian ECM would still effectively act as the removal of an information denial system from the game. Scout mechs aside though, Information Warfare is still weaker as a result of this change as we're back to the binary system of "can I see you and are you in radar range?". There's no 'warfare' aspect to this new system apart from the need to close to a shorter range with the enemy before we target them. Right now information warfare requires at least some interaction from pilots, as they must employ active countermeasures (PPCs, TAG, UAVs, Narc, BAP) to gain information (that said, I think that having a no-skill information denial system isn't the greatest either).

[Creovex]

http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/

ECM was introduced in December 2012.... now I recall a world before it and it was a world of LRMs and made for just walls of LRMs. Joke about Atlases with LRMs now but back then they were common.

The ECM is fine. Hell they even added BAP as a close range counter so streak users had more then TAG and 20m of play to lock.

The problem with ECM is not it's functionality but completely an issue of map size and design being flawed. They funnel people to choke points which force people into ECM bubbles due the maps small size and hard to navigate routes.

FYI - Guardian, Angel... Who cares.... ECM = Electronic Countermeasures, it doesn't have to be identical to anything

Edited by Creovex, 08 March 2015 - 04:38 PM.

[Eider]

ecm = angel
radar derp = guardian
theres your ecms.

[Eider]

Lyoto Machida, on 08 March 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

No one with any actual skill at using LRMs are shooting them from 1000m away so I guess it would reduce the amount of LRM noobs out there at the very least.

Yea more like 1200 if in the right mech.. er i mean LRMS ARE HARD TO USE AND SUCK, NO ONE USES EM EVER!

[El Bandito]

Prosperity Park, on 08 March 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Can We Please Remove Angel Ecm From The Game, And Replace It With Guardian Ecm?

I agree whole heartedly. Guided missiles such as LRMs and SSRMs cannot be fully balanced without GECM back to being a GECM, instead of this AECM + Stealth armor BS.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 08 March 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I agree whole heartedly. Guided missiles such as LRMs and SSRMs cannot be fully balanced without GECM back to being a GECM, instead of this AECM + Stealth armor BS.

LRMs aren't what I would call "balanced" even without ECM. Missiles and ECM/BAP as a whole need to be completely reworked.

[El Bandito]

WM Quicksilver, on 08 March 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

LRMs aren't what I would call "balanced" even without ECM. Missiles and ECM/BAP as a whole need to be completely reworked.

Of course, but changing ECM is the first step. BAP should naturally revert to its canon value as well. And LRMs need to be fire and forget, with LoS requirements to shoot, unless the target is TAGed or NARCed.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 March 2015 - 06:27 PM.