138 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 08 March 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

Of course, but changing ECM is the first step. BAP should naturally revert to its canon value as well. And LRMs need to be fire and forget, with LoS requirements to shoot, unless the target is TAGed or NARCed.

If I had to pick which gets changed first, it would be missiles, since with TAG the LoS and fire and forget would work well with each other and bypass ECM as it currently is.

Though something to think about, if Streaks were no longer fire and forget and required constant lock of the target for them to home correctly, they might not be so OP against lights.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 08 March 2015 - 06:36 PM.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 08 March 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

Of course, but changing ECM is the first step. BAP should naturally revert to its canon value as well. And LRMs need to be fire and forget, with LoS requirements to shoot, unless the target is TAGed or NARCed.

Wire Guided direct fire non-locked would also be quite nice....MWLL keeps spoiling me with that feature.

Edited by Mcgral18, 08 March 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[El Bandito]

WM Quicksilver, on 08 March 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

Though something to think about, if Streaks were no longer fire and forget and required constant lock of the target for them to home correctly, they might not be so OP against lights.

If in return for continuous lock, PGI removes bone targeting and let missiles hit wherever we aim at, then sure. Otherwise, SSRMs would be completely useless against anything over 40 tons.

Mcgral18, on 08 March 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

Wire Guided direct fire non-locked would also be quite nice....MWLL keeps spoiling me with that feature.

With PGI still struggling to make alternate-fire with the CLBXs, I doubt they can pull it off for LRMs any time soon.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 March 2015 - 06:44 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 08 March 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

If in return for continuous lock, PGI removes bone targeting and let missiles hit wherever we aim at, then sure. Otherwise, SSRMs would be completely useless against anything over 40 tons.

I'd rather SSRMs get nerfed temporarily until they get reworked than keep them at their currently silly level. That is, if bone targeting could not be brought back. After working on several of my lights, streaks really just ruin any advantage you might've had as a light unless you stay at range (which most don't have the payload to). Not even a Crabby Patty makes me go "well f***" as much as streak boats do when playing a non-Firestarter light.

[FupDup]

While the Tabletop GECM would be less bad than our current weird ECM, it wouldn't be the best implementation. Tabletop's ECM is still a hard-counter that completely wafflestomps Narc, Beagle, and Artemis and makes them instantly useless just by stepping into range.

No hard counters please. Soft counters or bust.

[Hospy]

If ECM gets nerfed to Guardian levels, then the free C3 network that LRM boats have access to would have to go. That and all LRM launchers having perfect accuracy.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 08 March 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

While the Tabletop GECM would be less bad than our current weird ECM, it wouldn't be the best implementation. Tabletop's ECM is still a hard-counter that completely wafflestomps Narc, Beagle, and Artemis and makes them instantly useless just by stepping into range.

No hard counters please. Soft counters or bust.

Yep. Soft counters is what I advocate also.

Hospy, on 08 March 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

If ECM gets nerfed to Guardian levels, then the free C3 network that LRM boats have access to would have to go. That and all LRM launchers having perfect accuracy.

I could care less about free C3, but LRM's accuracy has been constant since Mechwarrior 2, and you do not hear any complaints about them. It is still a sandpaper weapon, very ammo and tonnage inefficient for killing.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 March 2015 - 06:54 PM.

[RedDevil]

Please, nothing to increase LRM spam. Use NARC on the ECM carrier to disable it for 45seconds. Use Tag on any other mech to hit it with LRMs. Encourage team work that has some danger to it. Carry BAP.

Not just 3 spotter and 9 LRM boats.

Edited by reddevil, 08 March 2015 - 06:54 PM.

[GeneralArmchair]

FupDup, on 08 March 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

While the Tabletop GECM would be less bad than our current weird ECM, it wouldn't be the best implementation. Tabletop's ECM is still a hard-counter that completely wafflestomps Narc, Beagle, and Artemis and makes them instantly useless just by stepping into range.

No hard counters please. Soft counters or bust.

Tabletop GECM just turns off the fancy toys. The weapon's base level of effectiveness works just fine.

People keep spouting off "free C3 computers" like it is some pre-requisite for indirect fire. That's not true. I just need any of my units to act as a spotter and I can lob indirect LRM's with an accuracy penalty. No fancy equipment required.


One could try to argue that indirect fire without narcs and tags should be less accurate in MWO....but they're already so innefficient at delivering damage that they're ignored entirely at higher levels at play, so I don't think that's necessary.

Edited by GeneralArmchair, 08 March 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[El Bandito]

reddevil, on 08 March 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

Please, nothing to increase LRM spam. Use NARC on the ECM carrier to disable it for 45seconds. Use Tag on any other mech to hit it with LRMs. Encourage team work that has some danger to it. Carry BAP.

Not just 3 spotter and 9 LRM boats.

That setup will be beaten easily by pretty much any other team comps. I dunno where you get such trashy idea. More than 3 LRM boats in your team and you are asking to lose the game. Unless you are playing against guys still in their cadet stage.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 March 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[RedDevil]

Because it's hell for pub games, and you don't have to get all pissy because someone doesn't like the idea.

Get rid of Streak LRMs first.

Edited by reddevil, 08 March 2015 - 07:05 PM.

[El Bandito]

reddevil, on 08 March 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

Because it's hell for pub games, and you don't have to get all pissy because someone doesn't like your idea.

Get rid of Streak LRMs first.

I'm a dedicated pugger and I do not see this "LRM Hell" of yours. Are you from 2012?

[Bishop Steiner]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

No, we really can't, because ECM has been a core feature of the game since december 2012, and if you tamper with it, you have to fix every other system that ties into it.

aside from LRMboat Bads I didn't even know people still paid attention to ECM? My Hunchback kills ecm carriers just as easy as non ecm carriers... easier, actually, since so many sit there parked, thinking their mech has some kind of magic shield. Makes planting and ac20 and 3x mlasers in their kidneys childsplay

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Actually OP does not understand what is on sarna. Probably just like dummys on PGI side.
We don`t have angel. We have just crap that has nothing to do with anything.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 08 March 2015 - 07:36 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 08 March 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

This thread has nothing to do with "adhering to a TT game" but rather is a suggestion that we remove one piece of equipment and replace it with another in order to improve the quality of gameplay.



If Angel ECM was replaced with Guardian ECM, then they would not have to withhold quirks and other nice features from Guardian ECM carriers. Guardian ECM would no longer be treated as a "magic boon" and that would allow ECM Mechs to be treated more like normal combat Mechs instead of Jesus-Boxers.

Also, if Guardian ECM was released, then we could probably mount it on more Mechs, instead of just the Chosen Ones. This would reduce LRM spam considerably, since Team-Shared Targeting would be less prevalent.

the question would be, aside from blocking NARC, would TT ECM abilities make it worth having, at all?

[GeneralArmchair]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 March 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

the question would be, aside from blocking NARC, would TT ECM abilities make it worth having, at all?

People take it in tabletop to block the fancy upgrades.

[RedDevil]

El Bandito, on 08 March 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

I'm a dedicated pugger and I do not see this "LRM Hell" of yours. Are you from 2012?

Because there is no LRM hell right now, and I don't want changes that will allow it.

[Kassatsu]

Wildstreak, on 08 March 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

How is it only a certain, small part of the playerbase matters? The whole should matter, if you will not acknowledge the rest then there is no point listening.


I have brought it and sure enough, my team W/L went up just from bringing ECM and knowing where to position it. All I needed to do, bring ECM, put it in the right spot, better chance of team victory, stats proved it, they just got ignored because too many focus on damage only.

So no, it is not the annoyance of facing it, it is the fact that bringing it increases the chance of team victories in addition to dumbing down the complexity of the game.

Nah man, it adds complexity. I mean you gotta bring a tag, narc, BAP or even a(n ER) PPC to hard counter it. Because a game that relies nearly 50% on hard counters and 50% on whoever has the most high damage pinpoint alpha damage builds in pug matches is so perfectly balanced and complex that you can't even begin to imagine what a real jesus box would do.

Wait, what's that? You left click on enemy mechs either way, just with massive restrictions on your targeting info (read: you get none) and zero locks of any kind? That's complex gameplay right there man you have no idea.

Also, changes to ECM of any kind aren't happening. They didn't happen when the game added its totally amazing and unique "information warfare" that was decided solely on who brought more ECM, why would they change it now, after they've officially released the game from beta? It's okay, I still have a hard time saying the game is "released" and not on an extended beta/crowdfunding binge with a straight face too.

Guess we better keep quirking those mechs! I sure can't wait for the next 50% heat reduction build that can do completely ridiculous things and singlehandedly win a 24 player team-based match.

Edited by Kassatsu, 08 March 2015 - 07:20 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

GeneralArmchair, on 08 March 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

People take it in tabletop to block the fancy upgrades.

yeah, we got no C3 in this game, until recently NARC was garbage and Artemis is not really that big a deal.

[WarZ]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

No, we really can't, because ECM has been a core feature of the game since december 2012, and if you tamper with it, you have to fix every other system that ties into it.

Which of course is why piling s*** on s*** is never good.