138 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 March 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

the question would be, aside from blocking NARC, would TT ECM abilities make it worth having, at all?

They could safely increase lock time by whichever non ridiculous arbitrary number, as long as it doesn't stop it entirely. As such, a light mech scouting is safe, while a 50 KPh assault walking around in the open isn't.


It can be made into a useful soft counter, not a Jesus Box.

[GeneralArmchair]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 March 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

yeah, we got no C3 in this game, until recently NARC was garbage and Artemis is not really that big a deal.

IMO it would be better balanced for ECM to be an equipment with a power level that people debate whether they want to equip on their mech rather than an auto-include option that is universally slotted on every mech capable of equipping the ECM suite.

edit:
sort of like artemis, bap, and targeting computers.

Edited by GeneralArmchair, 08 March 2015 - 07:27 PM.

[Mcgral18]

reddevil, on 08 March 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Because there is no LRM hell right now, and I don't want changes that will allow it.

Such as 1.8 damage per missile, splash damage that deals another 1.8 damage to whichever hitbox in the area, missiles that divebomb at nearly 90 degrees....wait a minute...current LRMs are fairly garbage by those criteria.


There will not be a Lurmageddon; those issues have been dealt with. There will just be Bads whining about the worst weapon system in the game.

[WonderSparks]

Normally, I do not terribly care about how ECM functions; if I see an enemy using it, I do what I can to neutralize them, and if they get close to me my Active Probe will generally disable the "cloak".

However, the OP does speak to me a little bit.
The "Guardian ECM" we currently have is, even by what little I know of the game rules, not exactly accurate with the lore. (Although if it really was Angel ECM, would it not be heavier, too? )
Not that I have any better ideas of how it should function. (Partially because it is ~8:40 PM, and I am tired)

Maybe someday a tweak will be given to the ECM we have. I cannot say what it would be, or how long we might have to wait for it, or if it will ever happen at all. But something tells me that, no matter when, what, how, etc., someone will complain about the change.
It just seems to be the way the world works.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 08 March 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

They could safely increase lock time by whichever non ridiculous arbitrary number, as long as it doesn't stop it entirely. As such, a light mech scouting is safe, while a 50 KPh assault walking around in the open isn't.


It can be made into a useful soft counter, not a Jesus Box.

great and fine. But that ain't how it worked in TT either, the whole point of the QQ, I thought?

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 March 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

great and fine. But that ain't how it worked in TT either, the whole point of the QQ, I thought?

It works considerably closer. It doesn't combine Angel ECM with Stealth armour.

Something less ridiculous and over the top.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 08 March 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

It works considerably closer. It doesn't combine Angel ECM with Stealth armour.

Something less ridiculous and over the top.

In other words, no hiding of doritos of your own or of a groups.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 08 March 2015 - 07:49 PM.

[GeneralArmchair]

WM Quicksilver, on 08 March 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

In other words, no hiding of doritos of your own or of a groups.

It really shouldn't hide anything. Obscure the details, but not hide. There is nothing stealthy about jamming stuff with an ECM suite. It is like trying to hide the sound of your teammates' footsteps by shouting at the top of your lungs through a megaphone. Logically, the exact location of the jammers should be known at all times because it is electronically shouting so damn loud that it is hard to notice anything else.

Edited by GeneralArmchair, 08 March 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[cSand]

Prosperity Park, on 08 March 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

Oh man

thank you for that answer, I wish I had more hands so I could give this 4 thumbs up

[cSand]

Koniving, on 08 March 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

So after fixing ECM, we could have streaks work as a cross between what they are now and this (while still having the current spread).


Before "Angel ECM" made it into MWO, we had LRMs and Streaks that we could dodge.

I love the game now, but you keep showing me these damn vids from 3 years ago

I miss:

- graphics
- missile spread and behaviour
- mech animations
- cooler effects
- the look of the K2 and a few other mechs

Knockdowns I could go either way on.

I'm sure there is more I could pine for but that's all I got on the tip of my brain

[Star Witch Esperanza]

quoting the lore for game balance is like quoting the bible and ignoring all those parts about not being able to eat shellfish.

[627]

How about this:

• No Stealth umbrella anymore, target inicators are always visible when within sensor range
  
• ecm lengthens lock times by 100%
  
• ecm delays target info gathering by 100%
  
• ecm reduces sensor range from 800m down to 600m (so you have to be closer to detect the ecm covered mechs)
  
• BAP, Narc, Artemis and modules don't work(give bonuses) against ecm covered mechs
  
• ecm is a "free" item that doesn't require a special hardpoint anymore, like bap
  
• Tag is immune to ECM (it's a freakin lazor) so the tagged mech isn't covered by ecm anymore.

And that's it. A useful item that any mech can mount. For a price (1.5t/2 crits or 1/1 for clan), not like magic modules.



No hard counter that invalidates 2 weapon systems. No hiding anymore. No OP items.

Edited by 627, 09 March 2015 - 12:38 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

No, we really can't, because ECM has been a core feature of the game since december 2012, and if you tamper with it, you have to fix every other system that ties into it.

Yes PPCs would lose one reason to use it.

Sum Ting Wong, on 08 March 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

I really don't care about ECM to be honest. Maybe because 99% of my mechs involve pure energy/ballistic weapons loadouts, but even so unless I'm running a goofy all LRM/all S-SRM build, ECM doesn't bother me in the slightest and even when they do, I don't care. It's part of the game.

I liked this SPECIFICALLY cause of the Player name. It is somehow... fitting to the thread.

Although I agree with Sum's reasoning, GECM in MW:O does to much.

[Nayru]

We haven't had angel since ECM's introduction, where if one of your guys went into ECM, they would completely disappear off of your radar.

Please stop acting like we still have it, this ECM is nothing compared to what it was before.

[Strum Wealh]

Nephera, on 08 March 2015 - 09:32 PM, said:

quoting the lore for game balance is like quoting the bible and ignoring all those parts about not being able to eat shellfish.

The thing is, the OP is quoting the lore and still getting it wrong - he's glossing over a number of technical differences that make Angel ECM completely different from Guardian ECM, and ignoring the fact that MWO's implementation of Guardian does not do anything that is unique to Angel (or NullSig, or Stealth Armor, or VoidSig).

At best, it's disingenuous to the OP's point, and at worst it's outright dishonesty on the OP's part (since he's easily been around long enough to know better).

[Almond Brown]

Prosperity Park, on 08 March 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

This thread has nothing to do with "adhering to a TT game" but rather is a suggestion that we remove one piece of equipment and replace it with another in order to improve the quality of gameplay.

If Angel ECM was replaced with Guardian ECM, then they would not have to withhold quirks and other nice features from Guardian ECM carriers. Guardian ECM would no longer be treated as a "magic boon" and that would allow ECM Mechs to be treated more like normal combat Mechs instead of Jesus-Boxers.

Also, if Guardian ECM was released, then we could probably mount it on more Mechs, instead of just the Chosen Ones. This would reduce LRM spam considerably, since Team-Shared Targeting would be less prevalent.

Unless "every" Mech could mount Guardian, then what is "the point" of simply "increasing the # of "Chosen". Can we also ask to have JJ's implemented on ALL Mechs, as those "chosen" few also suffer from the Quirk monsters wrath... right?

[Screech]

Would still need to implement active/passive sensors. Also would Imagine that ECM be made available to all mechs.

[A Large Infant]

You should not be able to fire LRMs on a targeted mech that is not in your own radar scope...without C3

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 March 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

great and fine. But that ain't how it worked in TT either, the whole point of the QQ, I thought?

-shrug- I thought it was working right, when we were having the false target bug a few days ago... thought they finally decided to put in ghost targets for ECM....

[Wildstreak]

Sjorpha, on 08 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

It isn't that only comp players matter, I am certainly not good enough to be amongst them myself. That isn't the point.

The point is that competition at high levels are what explores the peaks in the landscape of possibilities of any given game. I'm not arguing that ECM is only balanced in comp games, I'm arguing that comp games are one of the things shedding light on the truth, which is that ECM is nowhere near strong enough to make a bad mech good, not on any level of playing.

Nope, competition does not explore the, "peaks in the landscape of possibilities of any given game." Comp players have a certain mentality that actually prevents them from doing certain things, seen this before in every game I have been in. They are great at winning most matches but they do not explore much. That may sound hateful but it is not, seen it proven and proved it myself.

Sjorpha, on 08 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

I simply think that the impression of ECM being OP is mostly a delusion stemming from the annoyance of facing it, my own experience supports that and i have nothing to compare with except the anecdotes of other players.

I may be wrong and I will change my mind if there is good data at any given moment to support the idea that ECM is OP, but it hasn't been presented to me yet. Until then I'm not going to bother with imaginary problems.

Your choice but what I have seen and read disproves it. Part of this point is that it appears you are going solely by your own gameplay while I am going not only by mine but others, the second is a more team attitude compared to a soloist. Example, I do not consider Timber Wolves & Stormcrows a problem but I do not get on other people's cases when they claim those 2 Mechs are OP. Another, I never had a problem with the old way MGs were done, when they got changed to make some people happy I didn't kick up a fuss.
Some people just do not get what Team means.

Sjorpha, on 08 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

It increases a teams chances of winning the same way bringing a healer character with your RPG party does, that doesn't mean healers are overpowered, it just means you are better off with one than without one.

Maybe two healers are better than one in some cases, but it very quickly has diminishing returns. It's the same with ECM, two ECM per wave in CW is enough, more isn't really worth any kind of tradeoff. The fact that bringing a couple mechs that can do X is a good idea isn't actually a problem.

Also I don't think it dumbs down the complexity of the game, how exactly? In my mind the more ECM mechs the opposing team have the more complex it is to fight them, because there is no easymode targeting system to use as a crutch for my awareness and visual targeting.

It's not that I'm satisfied either, in my mind targeting should be a lot harder than it is now. There should be entire maps and areas where your sensors are completely dysfunctional because of interference, where only BAP/CAP equipped mechs would have a very limited sensor range (hey, a real niche for BAP!), and there should also be things that temporarily caused false doritos on your radar... Where any mech could hide in smoke and darkness, and where only your own situational awareness mattered.

That would decrease the power of ECM btw, since where all sensors are off or functioning poorly there is no point in having ECM because it makes no difference.

More than 2 ECM could be depending on team composition. At is simplest, ECM has two uses outside anti-LRM.
1 - Cover a portion of the team.
2 - Cover the ECM using individual.
Two ECM covering two groups of Assaults/Heavies, a third and maybe fourth for 2 people doing info gathering on enemies and causing chaos in enemy lines works real well.
When I brought ECM, I always looked at what other ECM was on my team. If I saw an Atlas-DC or Hellbringer, I knew I was needed less in Role 1 and could do more of Role 2 while neither of those Mech present meant I focused more on Role 1.

It is not more complex to fight an enemy bringing ECM, you pretty much water down one of the three weapon groups and it is a poor representation of intel. If this mode of ECM is 'right,' why do games designed by actual military people avoid it? Because they know what it actually does to combat gameplay, it makes the intelligence portion worse not better.