270 replies to this topic

[Heffay]

Vassago Rain, on 09 March 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

Same reason hawken died. When the last ace fails, people tend to realize it's not gonna get any better, and they leave.

People left Hawken because the game play wasn't compelling enough. MWO has at *worst* case scenario maintained their numbers (a fact that even you won't deny), and considering they've hit record numbers over the past couple of weeks, is more likely growing.

PGI is hiring, they are developing new content (Solaris), and expanding on the game. It's doing the exact opposite of dying.

[KraftySOT]

Not to mention Steam kills.

MWO is flying under all the game news sites radar because when they were on the radar, they were terrible, so they quickly fell off the radar.

Best way back onto that radar is get on Steam.

What do YOU think the reviews will be like. Its one thing to have guys who already gave you money complain on your forums and Reddit. Its completely different to have Rock Paper Scissors give you a review so scathing that people dont just avoid you or not know about you, but actively seek to destroy you.

See: Day Z, Rust, Space Engineers...

And people left Hawken because everyone they ever talked too, said it was terrible. Even if you enjoy it, at some point when everyone you know laughs at you for playing it, you stop playing it, and start playing whatever theyre playing.

[Vassago Rain]

Heffay, on 09 March 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

People left Hawken because the game play wasn't compelling enough. MWO has at *worst* case scenario maintained their numbers (a fact that even you won't deny), and considering they've hit record numbers over the past couple of weeks, is more likely growing.

PGI is hiring, they are developing new content (Solaris), and expanding on the game. It's doing the exact opposite of dying.

People are gonna leave MWO, because the gameplay is hidden behind an immense grindwall, and the end-game game mode is boring, broken, and fundamentally flawed.

I once bet real money on how PGI were gonna deal with clan release. It netted me 90 real life dollars.

Yeah, I'm sure they're developing solaris, man. One game designer (Paul) doing two game modes concurrently, and setting the game up for steam release, and pushing more grab deals, new quirks, and a new map every month.

You'll be lucky if solaris is 2015's game mode. Remember, we get one game mode per year.

MWO's record numbers were made in early open beta, Heffay. If they only now, in 2015, during weekly grind events with free premtime, managed to top those numbers, well... I don't really need to say anything else, really.

[KraftySOT]

Heffay, on 09 March 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

People left Hawken because the game play wasn't compelling enough. MWO has at *worst* case scenario maintained their numbers (a fact that even you won't deny), and considering they've hit record numbers over the past couple of weeks, is more likely growing.

PGI is hiring, they are developing new content (Solaris), and expanding on the game. It's doing the exact opposite of dying.

You know, Mechwarrior Tactics had an update days before they shut down the servers.

The list of games that update right up until the lights are off, is vast, and lengthy.

[Rebas Kradd]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 09 March 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Then dont be silly to jump into a competition with more talented and passionated guys than you are. What did we all think when we heard about transfail? A cheap copy to benefit from the space sim hype

Nobody said Transverse was a terribly original idea. And I'm pretty sure that their artists were just apeing the SC designs, as well.

But that wasn't Vassago's argument. His argument was basically that PGI shouldn't have been developing a second game in the first place, so don't try to tapdance like that.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 09 March 2015 - 02:23 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Rebas Kradd, on 09 March 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

Nobody said Transverse was a terribly original idea.

But that wasn't Vassago's argument. His argument was basically that PGI shouldn't have been developing a second game in the first place, so don't try to tapdance like that.

My argument is that you should develop good games, no matter if you're making 1, 2, 3, 4, or however many games.

Trying to get in on that space game money made them look super desperate.

[Heffay]

Rebas Kradd, on 09 March 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

Nobody said Transverse was a terribly original idea.

But that wasn't Vassago's argument. His argument was basically that PGI shouldn't have been developing a second game in the first place, so don't try to tapdance like that.

And odds are they are still working on a second game. The whole concept is still sound, even if Transverse was a misstep.

So the cash cow of MWO not only funds the continued development of the game, but enough funds to start up a new game as well.

Not exactly what one would consider being in dire straights.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Rebas Kradd, on 09 March 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

Nobody said Transverse was a terribly original idea.

But that wasn't Vassago's argument. His argument was basically that PGI shouldn't have been developing a second game in the first place, so don't try to tapdance like that.

Do you know warthunder? They couldve create a tank game next to their Plane game. No they added it as a gamemode next to each other. And guess what? They are planning to melt those 2 game modes into one. That shouldve been pgi s project not a dedicated 2nd game. And trust me pgi ´s talent is limited to create a 2nd original deciated game. As posters above said, they added almost nothing visionar to the game. They are remastering the old Mw titles

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 09 March 2015 - 02:28 PM.

[KraftySOT]

That said, there will be an MWO until 2020.

It just may have the same player base as Battleground Europe. As the playerbase shrinks as does the revenue, theyll lay people off and rent less servers. You can run this thing on peanuts really. The only people who wont get the boot from PGI are Paul, Russ and Bryan I believe.

Like how CRS got down to nothing but its two founding members and unpaid community managers. They even managed to crawl back up to a few employees, but all intents and purposes, that game died in 2002. Theyre still hanging on though because its that or the poor house. As long as several hundred people pay a sub, they can pay the rent.

With PGI having the license (I still cant figure out if they have Jordan or what) until 2020, itll be here, but may have already died.

[Kristov Kerensky]

MW2 was a success because it was a SIM of BTech Mech combat, pure and simple. And its was also one of the best FPS games out at the time on top of that. People forget that little fact about MW2, it was, at it's heart, an FPS game and that's what made it's online play fun. MW2:GBL and :Mercs were just more of the same with new toys to add to the mix, including being able to play as either Inner Sphere or Clan with Mercs. STILL just a very cool looking FPS game though.

MW:LL did something that wasn't really universally liked by the MW crowd, combined arms, with a little too much emphasis on the non-Mech side. Understandable, Mechs are hard to model and make function, tanks and apcs and battlearmors, which are already all included IN the assets of CryTek, are easy to make function, so it's easy enough to see why things went the way they did. Still not sure why the hell they ever chose the CryTek engine myself, far better engines out, with much larger playerbases, all capable of doing what was required.

Say what you want about how much YOU personally like MW:LL, you being the people here who were part of the dev team and testers, but it was NOT a big hit in the MW community, ever. I bought the Crysis games to play it, because like most of us old guard, money ain't no thing, we'll fork over hard cash for a good Mech experience. MW:LL didn't do that, I WANTED it to, I spent good money on games I didn't even LIKE to get to play MW:LL, I was disappointed, to put it mildly.

I keep seeing this term, 'grindy', in relation to MWO and leveling up xp and getting cbills. All I can think every single time I see one of you say that is..

'this is someone who has NEVER EVER played a single MMO'

because there isn't an MMO around that doesn't have the exact same mechanics, and every single one I've ever played are a lot more grind based than MWO, even with the Paulconomy(I agree with you on that bs), and I've played MMOs for decades now, this is the LEAST grind of any of them. Obviously some of you have no clue how MMOs work..'let us host'...Funny thing is, I know some of you play/played EVE, and you talk about grind in THIS game?

[KraftySOT]

What CCP over at Eve got down to just a handful of employees too, that game died and then got rebirthed to some small degree, and now they have two teams in two locations.

Anything can happen.

Paul might get amnesia and Russ might win the lottery. Jordan might be made lead, or Phil, and then who knows, maybe we get inferno SRMs and jump platoons *shrug*

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 March 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

MW2 was a success because it was a SIM of BTech Mech combat, pure and simple.

I stopped reading after that because this is so right.

MW3, same thing.

By the time we get to MWO, theres no 'simulation' left at all. All the sim aspects are gone, and arent even on the table anymore.

I did have to look at the rest of that tho.

This isnt an MMO, any more than Quake Team Deathmatch was an MMO.

An MMO, would have me walking around towns, buying mechparts, so I can go to my hangar, get my mech, and go kill rats and skeletons with my buddies and split our xp and loot.

And I would play a Battletech MMO.

It would be like this:




What "Mechwarrior" should have been ^^

Battletech, is what Activision should have at least named it. Calling it Mechwarrior is what first put us on the path to stupidity. Because you have half of a fanbase sitting there like Picard going "WHAT IS THIS MADNESS?! Mechwarrior already exists, its a pen and paper RPG, not a sim...wtf?!"

20 years later. Here we are.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

KraftySOT, on 09 March 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

It wasnt (well it was, its complicated) and thats what I was saying. Yes the CORE mechanics were fantastic, and thats why they were successful but when they had nothing BUT those core mechanics (with bad maps, bad models, half the guns, no body armor or helmets, hostage rescue was the only mode) it wasnt NEARLY as successful as when it was 'polished'. As I said the number of people playing CS BEFORE Valve polished it was FAR below than when AFTER they polished it. Core mechanics dont make a game. At least not to players. Core mechanics should impress other industry people. (which is why PGI asked them to stop short of being better than MWO)

So the argument is, MWO should be a polished MWLL, because MWLL's core mechanics are fantastic. Its the rest of it that needed polish.

Thats understandable right? Maybe im crazy and that doesnt make sense to most people.

Yes I do understand that... However I see the core mechanics a bit differently. The core mechanics of MW franchise are different weapon systems for short range, medium range and long range, the damaging mechanic to different six parts of the mech that hold these systems and the feel of piloting a big stompy robot.

Not sure about the last one in MWO these days... (Ditch speed tweak! ... well ditch the whole pilot efficiency tree) but it used to have that feel. It is basically a different approach to the franchise. MWO chose the fast matches to cater twitchy shooter people - probably a pure business call. I do agree that MW:LL did some things way better... But in the end, I'd probably still be playing this one because of the approach they chose, the match length is perfect for having one before work or couple after work before you make dinner.

Some things could be learned from MW:LL, and I think this is something they had in mind when they designed CW. If CW has a resource gathering mode, I'd guess it would resemble alot the one MW:LL had. But at the end of the day I don't hold MW:LL that high.

But on the subject of CS, you see my age on the profile and we did play ALOT of those mods back here in Finland also. Starting from Action Quake. They might not be that unpopular that you think, especially cus you cannot get proper statistics because all the servers were hosted pretty much from home computers. I do agree CS skyrocketed after Valve took over, but it really was just the boost it needed and the time was right. Comparable action would be that Crytek took over MW:LL after they decided on a similiar business approach Valve did back in the day... But we all know about that.

[KraftySOT]

ugrakarma, on 09 March 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Yes I do understand that... However I see the core mechanics a bit differently. The core mechanics of MW franchise are different weapon systems for short range, medium range and long range, the damaging mechanic to different six parts of the mech that hold these systems and the feel of piloting a big stompy robot.

And thats why we are where we are. Because Paul agrees with you.

The vast majority of the community however, says that the core mechanics are the core mechanics in the rule books...all of them. The combined arms, the grand strategy, the pilot quirks, the weapon systems, the ranges, the heat scale, the armor, the lore, the aiming, the systems, all of it.

MWLL agrees with the latter, and thats why you see so many people heralding it, despite its rough appearance. Because its those core mechanics we wanted to see here, and dont. Its the evolution of the core mechanics that were pioneered in the franchise 20 years ago. Passive/active sensors, vast weapons options, combined arms warfare, roles, large battlefields and complex mechanics.

We can probably all collectively agree, you dont have to bother with melee...but you do have to get the rest of it right. Its that lack of passion and understanding of these core mechanics, that makes MWO what it is.

MWO is, and always will be, defined by what it is NOT, and not what it IS.

Read every review back when it got out of CB. Says that in a nutshell. Everyone wants MOAR, and PGI is incapable, or unwilling, to do MOAR.

They picked a bad engine, a bad game architecture, were inexperienced, picked up some players with the wrong strengths, and it is what it is...we'll always be defined by the things we didnt do. PGI DIDNT get CW right. It DIDNT add new or meaningful mechanics to the franchise. PGI DIDNT reiterate mechanics that worked well. PGI DIDNT do community management right for...3 years...PGI DIDNT have a good relationship with Reddit and its community...

All these things are their legacy, and unfortunately, its also tied to the franchises legacy.

[KraftySOT]

Oh and Action Quake 2's lead, got hired to Epic Megagames for UT.

If people still play that, sign me up, because that was one of the best mods...ever..

And I surely wouldnt judge it based on its playerbase, then or now, but simply its content and mechanics, which were fantastic. From the not starting with a gun, to the kicking, to the sound effects and spawning system. The map design. The entire thing for being a bloody quake 2 mod was impressive.

Now games have many of those same mechanics. Action Quake was the first popular mod with 'Bleeding & Bandaging'. Now its a staple.

These inventive and creative game mechanics proliferate when smart developers see them, and use them in their own games.

PGI cant even use creative and invention mechanics that were successful in their OWN FRANCHISE lol.

Active/Passive radar or bust!

[Huntsman]

For me, MWLL had 2 things that are absent from MWO, and that I sorely miss:

- combined arms (not just mechs, but tanks, artillery, aircraft, and battle armor)

- a real conquest mode unlike the weaksauce that is in MWO

I only just got back into MWO a few days ago after a long hiatus, and I'm yet to play a round of Conquest, so in the event they've made huge improvements to that game mode, I will retract that criticism.

I really liked some of the MWLL maps better as well, and though I believe it to have been a flawed design choice for MWLL, there's something I really miss about the Counterstrike-like asset purchase system, starting the match with weak assets and building up to epic machines by the end of the round. I suppose, love or hate the game, that mechanic is one of the things that has contributed to CS's success.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

And what did pgi add to the game. Which innovation? Ghost gheat? JJ screenshake? Gaussrifle charge?

What about collision actually? was that in the other mw titles? And yet that thing has been killed pretty fast

Edited by ThisMachineKillsFascists, 09 March 2015 - 02:56 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

MW3 was not a sim, it was an arcaded version of MW2, and that was on purpose, Zipper was under orders to make it that way by MS, some of my time in the industry was working for them at that time. I was ALMOST the PR guy for Heavy Gears, talk about dodging a bullet, the poor guy they did hire didn't last 6 months, about 2 months longer than Heavy Gears did

As to MWO being an MMO, I actually agree with you on that currently, there is NO MMO going on here. CW will, maybe, possibly, create some of that MMO experience, but only part of it. It does need that 'go kill 10 rats' thing to really make it an MMO, a sense that you are DOING something, ANYTHING in the game world that has an impact, even if it's just killing rats. We need something that allows the players to feel like they are a part of the game universe, and that's not even remotely happening in MWO currently, not to me and most of us.

ThisMachine, collisions were actually a big part of MW2 series, DFAs were a very fun and hard as hell thing to pull off. We had collisions in MWO, but the CryTek engine's netcode buggered that up badly, so they got pulled until they can get the refactored networking code to handle them properly. Even RSI is having fun with the netcode that CryTek uses, it's no where near as robust and capable as they let on.

[KraftySOT]

Now theyre going to do PvE...probably with the models we already have with terrible AI.

They COULD use PvE as an excuse to pump out some tank models with terrible AI.

The sad thing here is that, we use the Crysis engine. Were limited by its dev updates. Who did PGI piss off over MWLL...

Do that math. Its pretty maddening.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Which effect actually does a dev updated version has on a engine? is it a big deal?

[LordNothing]

they shouldn't have been shut down

they should have been hired.