102 replies to this topic

[Derpfish]

Shadowhawk with 3x AC2's is fun. Not necessarily optiomal, but fun nonetheless.

[Greenjulius]

The problem is the tonnage. If the Enforcer were a 55 ton medium, it could to the 2xAC5+1xAC2 "Jackhammer" build that the shadowhawk can run quite well. In theory, the SHD-2H can do over 1000 (1200 to be exact) damage if all shots hit within effective range. It's also quite deadly.

SHD-2H

The Enforcer however doesn't have the luxury of stripping all the armor off it's arms, the tonnage to carry enough ammo or jumpjets. It's too light to do the same.

Edited by Greenjulius, 09 March 2015 - 08:27 AM.

[FupDup]

Greenjulius, on 09 March 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

The problem is the tonnage. If the Enforcer were a 55 ton medium, it could to the 2xAC5+1xAC2 "Jackhammer" build that the shadowhawk can run quite well. In theory, the SHD-2H can do over 1000 damage if all shots hit within effective range. It's also quite deadly.

SHD-2H

The Enforcer however doesn't have the luxury of stripping all the armor off it's arms, the tonnage to carry enough ammo or jumpjets. It's too light to do the same.

I remember a quote from a forumwarrior once that the medium class was actually the 55 ton class...

[Metus regem]

FupDup, on 09 March 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

1. Make MGs not suck. For reals this time.

2. Give MGs a rate of fire module, because nearly everything else gets to fire 12% faster.

3. Advance timeline, give us Light ACs and Magshots for the IS. AP Gauss and Protomech ACs for Clans. MG Arrays for everyone!1!!

4. ???

5. DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA



For the Enforcer 5P specifically, it's another case study of why Binary Laser Cannons should totally be a thing in MWO. They're even timeline friendly. There's even a canon Zeus variant available right now with one stock...but PGI skipped that variant.

We all know that the Blazers are sitting with tarps over them, right beside the prototype MAD-4X Maruaders...



I want it, and it could be a steeping stone to get around the Unseen issue, as it has very little to do with this:

[Almond Brown]

Reitrix, on 09 March 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

But why would you build a 'Mech with Ballistic HPs specifically NOT to make use of them?

Half the problem is our current "if i cant alpha it, its worthless" mindset. The MG is ridiculously good at spraying down internals and removing threats without actually punching the component off.
You'd be surprised to learn that the twin MGs on my Enforcer allowed me to neuter and then take down a Dire Wolf i cought from behind, the MGs destroyed every AC he had in his STs and the fool hadn't put on backup lasers, so he was trying to kill me with 2 AC5s.

Every weapon has its place, inb a variety of situations.
Even my Dire Wolves carry MGs when not boating heavier Ballistics, because that spray can be effective Light deterrent, they don't stick around when they're taking damage. Not to mention an extra layer of literally free damage when things get into facehug range.

I wonder if these folks thing a 12 Energy only Mech, which can't possibly use ALL the energy slots (save maybe for 12 erSL's) is somehow different. The NopeVa still has its uses without "filling" every orifice, why not other Mechs?

P.S. 12 cerml's at 12% HE is not really a Mech of choice when you land on Mordor...

[FupDup]

Almond Brown, on 09 March 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

I wonder if these folks thing a 12 Energy only Mech, which can't possibly use ALL the energy slots (save maybe for 12 erSL's) is somehow different. The NopeVa still has its uses without "filling" every orifice, why not other Mechs?

P.S. 12 cerml's at 12% HE is not really a Mech of choice when you land on Mordor...

The Nova's 12 ERSL loadout can actually get by as a high-damage brawler if it uses each arm separately...

[RedDevil]

MG's do increased damage to internal structure because they have a massive bonus to do critical damage.


You're looking at 2dps average for a single machine gun hitting exposed internals, and it can potentially spike higher than that if you're extra lucky with crit roles. Note, machine guns fire in a cone shaped pattern and not directly where you're aimer is pointed, so just point at the center of mass and spray non stop unless you're close (or steady) enough to point over the stripped part of the mech.

Mount 3 machine guns and you're doing more damage than an AC/20 when hitting internal structure. It's a finisher weapon, and produces no heat. Remember, these things are only 0.5tons, and 1 ton of ammo is usually plenty for 4 MGs.

Machine Gun mechs are vultures. You keep hitting 'R' until you find a mech with it's armour stripped, then move in with MG's firing and watch the parts fly off. This is also why they're better on quicker or smaller mechs as the range is quite short.

Edited by reddevil, 09 March 2015 - 08:41 AM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 09 March 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

I remember a quote from a forumwarrior once that the medium class was actually the 55 ton class...

It's probably oversimplistic.

40 tonners are "overweight lights".

It's hard to have anything meaningful when the bulk of the 55 tonners generally that ones considered "most useful".

Still, it's hilarious when it is stated as such.

[FupDup]

reddevil, on 09 March 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

MG's do increased damage to internal structure because they have a massive bonus to do critical damage.


You're looking at 2dps average for a single machine gun hitting exposed internals, and it can potentially spike higher than that if you're extra lucky with crit roles. Note, machine guns fire in a cone shaped pattern and not directly where you're aimer is pointed, so just point at the center of mass and spray non stop unless you're close (or steady) enough to point over the stripped part of the mech.

Mount 3 machine guns and you're doing more damage than an AC/20 when hitting internal structure. It's a finisher weapon, and produces no heat. Remember, these things are only 0.5tons, and 1 ton of ammo is usually plenty.

Machine Gun mechs are vultures. You keep hitting 'R' until you find a mech with it's armour stripped, then move in with MG's firing and watch the parts fly off. This is also why they're better on quicker or smaller mechs as the range is quite short.

That graph is old by several months. Actually, it's been outdated since the first day of the Clan Invasion back in June.

The MG's base DPS is now 0.8 instead of 1.0. Also, the reduced damage per bullet indirectly reduced the amount of critical hit damage they did, which pretty significantly reduced their anti-internals effectiveness (because crit damage is based on the starting damage...).

Edited by FupDup, 09 March 2015 - 08:42 AM.

[Screech]

This is more of an issue of MWO only having mechs then anything else. MG would make sense if we had infantry and other soft targets. They just need to get around to doing PvE at some point(this would also fix the flamer)

They are weapons without targets. Like having a bunch of wooden stakes when fighting werewolves.

[FupDup]

Screech, on 09 March 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

This is more of an issue of MWO only having mechs then anything else. MG would make sense if we had infantry and other soft targets. They just need to get around to doing PvE at some point(this would also fix the flamer)

They are weapons without targets. Like having a bunch of wooden stakes when fighting werewolves.

Implying that we couldn't just kill infantry by just sweeping over them with lasers instead.

[RedDevil]

Thanks for letting me know FupDup. So 4 MGs are now like 3 old MGs? That's still really good damage.

[luigi256]

I hear your plight I too wanted to try something other than the two Ultra 5s because they are too unreliable without some other backup weapons other than one medium laser.

I ended up switching to a Guass and ERPPC with the 250XL and 3 tons of ammo. I wanted to use the other 3 ballistics slots for machine guns but I just could not find space.

[Deathlike]

reddevil, on 09 March 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

Thanks for letting me know FupDup. So 4 MGs are now like 3 old MGs? That's still really good damage.

It's actually worse when the crit damage generation is less damaging due to how they are linked together. In other words, It's far less efficient.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The big thing for me is this. We have hard points we can't realistically fill effectively (especially with Mediums).

With energy we have a good amount of "effective" low ton weapons. We have 0.5 ton weapons, 1 ton, 2 ton, and 5 ton in the lighter scale. Ballistics we have 0.5 ton and then 5 ton. Nothing in between.

It means when we sacrifice an energy for a 4th ballistic hard point, we are being hurt by this. An energy or missile isn't a 1 for 1 trade for an MG. If it was 1 for 1, why not just make the Enforcer a 5 ballistic mech with no other hard points. It would be equal to a 4 ballistic and 1 energy mech.

I'd like a ballistic that would fit somewhere between a MG and an A/C2. It would be nice and wouldn't make a 4 ballistic medium with 1 energy feel so restrictive.

[RedDevil]

Crit damage is % based, and the crit chance is the same, no? If it went down from 1.0 to 0.8 then total damage should have only gone down by 20%

4 MG's should still do more than the old 3 MGs if that's the case.....

[Deathlike]

reddevil, on 09 March 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Crit damage is % based, and the crit chance is the same, no? If it went down from 1.0 to 0.8 then total damage should have only gone down by 20%

4 MG's should still do more than the old 3 MGs if that's the case.....

You're missing the point.

If your are doing 80% of the damage normally, YOUR CRIT DAMAGE is 80% of that as well (edit: the multiplier is like 90% of the base MG damage). It's far more detrimental.

In essence, you are doing 64% damage from before (edit: my math could be wrong).. you are spending more facetime with the MGs than when MGs did 1 DPS.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 March 2015 - 09:11 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

I doubt PGI wants to or even could implement but I would like to see different ammo choices. Perhaps a selector switch option to allow different load outs.

This can be applied to all ballistic weapons except gauss Posted this somewhere in the past but again:

1) Armor Piercing. Weighs twice as much but does 1.5 more damage per shot. Perhaps 2x damage but only to external armor. 1/2 damage to internals as the round passes through.

2) High Velocity. 1/2 damage but 3x the load out as the rounds are light weight.

3) High Explosive. 1/2 damage to armor but 2x to internals. If critied the mech carrying takes 2x damage unless CASED


Might even be able to do something similar with LURMS. SMERSH, HE, CLUSTER......

[RedDevil]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

You're missing the point.

If your are doing 80% of the damage normally, YOUR CRIT DAMAGE is 80% of that as well. It's far more detrimental.

In essence, you are doing 64% damage from before (edit: my math could be wrong).. you are spending more facetime with the MGs than when MGs did 1 DPS.

Ah yeah, so it's 1.28dps per mg instead of 2. So 4 MG's are 5.12dps average which is almost the same as an AC/20?
Not bad for 3 tons, still being top of the chart.

Edited by reddevil, 09 March 2015 - 09:08 AM.

[Deathlike]

reddevil, on 09 March 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

Ah yeah, so it's 1.28dps per mg instead of 2. So 4 MG's are 5.12dps average which is almost the same as an AC/20?
Not bad for 3 tons, still being top of the chart.

I don't think you understand the chart at all.

That would be part of the problem in the first place.

Let alone, the context in which MGs are used (like, TOTAL FACETIME WITH TARGET).