102 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

If you're having Vindie Z flashbacks, that's bad. I finally gave up on the ballistic points on the Z, went PPC/LRM10 and have enjoyed that build immensely as a sniper/harrasser.

As for the Enjunker here, you can go Gauss/ERPPC if you don't care about speed or Ammo, or Gauss/ERLL if you like some speed AND ammo. I'm constantly running out with the Gauss, but some people, 40 rounds is enough I guess.

It's not fun. it's not easy, but it kinda works.

[wanderer]

Or, properly speaking the second-generation AC ammo types. Look em up on Sarna, they're simply not available in the timeline as of yet.

[RedDevil]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

I don't think you understand the chart at all.

That would be part of the problem in the first place.

Let alone, the context in which MGs are used (like, TOTAL FACETIME WITH TARGET).

Yes, you're right. Face time is an issue. BTW, caps is like yelling to most people on the internet. It's really not necessary to have a conversation where one side is learning something.

[Alek Ituin]

Tom Sawyer, on 09 March 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

I doubt PGI wants to or even could implement but I would like to see different ammo choices. Perhaps a selector switch option to allow different load outs.

This can be applied to all ballistic weapons except gauss Posted this somewhere in the past but again:

1) Armor Piercing. Weighs twice as much but does 1.5 more damage per shot. Perhaps 2x damage but only to external armor. 1/2 damage to internals as the round passes through.

2) High Velocity. 1/2 damage but 3x the load out as the rounds are light weight.

3) High Explosive. 1/2 damage to armor but 2x to internals. If critied the mech carrying takes 2x damage unless CASED


Might even be able to do something similar with LURMS. SMERSH, HE, CLUSTER......

BT hypervelocity rounds were bulkier and therefore carried *less* rounds per ton, not more. They also did the same damage while increasing the optimal/maximum range.

In fact, all of these rounds and more are covered as special ammunition types, and the rules for them already exist.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 09 March 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[Deathlike]

reddevil, on 09 March 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Yes, you're right. Face time is an issue. BTW, caps is like yelling to most people on the internet. It's really not necessary to have a conversation where one side is learning something.

Yes, but at this point I've tried to explain it to you nicely, and you're not getting it.

Anyone trying to equate 4MGs to an AC20 is going to be laughed out in spades.

[Mcgral18]

reddevil, on 09 March 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

MG's do increased damage to internal structure because they have a massive bonus to do critical damage.


You're looking at 2dps average for a single machine gun hitting exposed internals, and it can potentially spike higher than that if you're extra lucky with crit roles. Note, machine guns fire in a cone shaped pattern and not directly where you're aimer is pointed, so just point at the center of mass and spray non stop unless you're close (or steady) enough to point over the stripped part of the mech.

Mount 3 machine guns and you're doing more damage than an AC/20 when hitting internal structure. It's a finisher weapon, and produces no heat. Remember, these things are only 0.5tons, and 1 ton of ammo is usually plenty for 4 MGs.

Machine Gun mechs are vultures. You keep hitting 'R' until you find a mech with it's armour stripped, then move in with MG's firing and watch the parts fly off. This is also why they're better on quicker or smaller mechs as the range is quite short.

FupDup, on 09 March 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

That graph is old by several months. Actually, it's been outdated since the first day of the Clan Invasion back in June.

The MG's base DPS is now 0.8 instead of 1.0. Also, the reduced damage per bullet indirectly reduced the amount of critical hit damage they did, which pretty significantly reduced their anti-internals effectiveness (because crit damage is based on the starting damage...).

reddevil, on 09 March 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Crit damage is % based, and the crit chance is the same, no? If it went down from 1.0 to 0.8 then total damage should have only gone down by 20%

4 MG's should still do more than the old 3 MGs if that's the case.....

No, crit chance was nerfed long before that. From 67% to 52%, while normal weapons are at 42%.


This same crit damage which has a 0.0000000000006% chance to deal 60 critical damage on the LB10x...which translates to 9 Internal Structure damage... How useful. AC20 has a 3% chance to deal that; or 3 IS damage per crit.

Machine guns are a little better off, with:

• 4% chance to deal 2.16 critical damage
  
• 17% chance to deal 1.44 critical damage
  
• 31% chance to deal 0.72 critical damage

In other words:

• 4% chance to deal 0.324 Internal Structure damage
  
• 17% chance to deal 0.216 Internal Structure damage
  
• 31% chance to deal 0.108 Internal Structure damage

So, it has a 31% chance to deal ITS OLD DAMAGE pre 20% nerf.

That chart is outdated.

[Screech]

FupDup, on 09 March 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

Implying that we couldn't just kill infantry by just sweeping over them with lasers instead.

How did I imply that at all? If I say "A flyswatter is effective at killing flies not dogs" do I imply that a baseball bat would not kill a fly? Just seems silly.

[Kjudoon]

This is why I love damaged mechs charging my 6MG Crabby Patty. They get the Shiatzu massage of doom.

[627]

we don't need enhanced crit chance for mg. just give it real damage with short range and done.

we dont need fancy crit mechanics that "could" do damage and so on. just damage like all other weapons.

I'd even be okay with it being a dps weapon that needs facetime instead of reloading. hell, even CoF is ok but make it do meaningful damage.

[Deathlike]

627, on 09 March 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

we don't need enhanced crit chance for mg. just give it real damage with short range and done.

we dont need fancy crit mechanics that "could" do damage and so on. just damage like all other weapons.

I'd even be okay with it being a dps weapon that needs facetime instead of reloading. hell, even CoF is ok but make it do meaningful damage.

That was asked for, but we got what we got.

It's hard to argue against bad ideas that people don't actually understand how they work and then they start fearing about the 6MG Spider of lore.

Since the Clan pack release, I have stopped bothering with MGs altogether on principle. I don't even see the Ember fielded as much, and that was the premiere 4MG light that had enough firepower to cut through your armor.

There was a reason that years ago, my sig had talked of the "Spider-5K" challenge. God, that mech is much worse now a complete afterthought and completely hard to use for new players.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 March 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

Yeah I normally do not mention SARNA or table top as it sets off flame wars in here. However:

http://www.sarna.net...nate_Ammunition

PGI could shake up the game

[Alek Ituin]

Screech, on 09 March 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

How did I imply that at all? If I say "A flyswatter is effective at killing flies not dogs" do I imply that a baseball bat would not kill a fly? Just seems silly.

Having actually tried something like this, I can personally assure you that the flyswatter is vastly superior at killing flies.

Kind of like how an MG would be vastly superior at killing massed infantry. Which, as it happens, is what the MG was first developed to do way back in 1862.

Tom Sawyer, on 09 March 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Yeah I normally do not mention SARNA or table top as it sets off flame wars in here. However:

http://www.sarna.net...nate_Ammunition

PGI could shake up the game

I definitely get where you're coming from not mentioning TT.

And yes, PGI could definitely do something with alternate ammunition... Might make MWO slightly less stale feeling.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 09 March 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[RedDevil]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

Yes, but at this point I've tried to explain it to you nicely, and you're not getting it.

Anyone trying to equate 4MGs to an AC20 is going to be laughed out in spades.

Well, a saying it does a lot less damage, is not the same as explaining it with the full math. There is a lot of hyperbole on these forums where things go from OP to useless over minor changes. I like to see the math and decide for myself. I'm sure others would appreciate it too.

[Mcgral18]

reddevil, on 09 March 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Well, a saying it does a lot less damage, is not the same as explaining it with the full math. There is a lot of hyperbole on these forums where things go from OP to useless over minor changes. I like to see the math and decide for myself. I'm sure others would appreciate it too.

Math is above.

[Ngamok]

I'm with you guys on this. I run mine with an XL265, 2x AC/5s with 4 tons of ammo, (don't care about the quirks) and 1x ER LL. I do OK in matches sometimes 500+ damage. It would have been better if those 2 extra ballistic slots were just energy.

[Ngamok]

joelmuzz, on 09 March 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

Better too many than too few.
Allows the option of 4x AC2, better than MG at least.

Im running the UAC's with XL295 and as much ammo as I can pack, which is only 130 or something, got to refrain from wasting ammo.
I find it OK, though I do prefer unlimited vomit mechs, especially since hitreg eats a percentage of my ballistic shots even on stationary targets.

Reduced UAC jam rate would really be nice suitable quirk.
UAC's really are over nerfed, DPS averages to the sameas AC but they weight more and take an extra slot so really they are a bit worse a lot of the time.

+1 buff MG and flamer.
Add 25% damage plus give +12% damage module and they should come good.

The problem is that when you carry 3-4 UAC/5s they become really dangerous. People who pilot King Crabs with 4 of them can tear through a Dire Wolf really fast.

[RedDevil]

Mcgral18, on 09 March 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

Math is above.

Thanks!

[Deathlike]

reddevil, on 09 March 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Well, a saying it does a lot less damage, is not the same as explaining it with the full math. There is a lot of hyperbole on these forums where things go from OP to useless over minor changes. I like to see the math and decide for myself. I'm sure others would appreciate it too.

It's not hyperbole that it is not as effective as before. We had "MG feels worse" threads a while back (probably started by Bishop Steiner no less) and it hasn't really trickled into consciousness yet.

The math genuinely just verifies "the feeling" of the weapon. Sometimes the feel of a weapon is "too effective" and can actually be shown through math (kinda like the Thunderbolt-9S ERPPC overbuff/overquirk).

Still, people refuse to believe the math or the science or "the feels" and disagree w/o much thinking that goes into it.

Go figure.

[Ngamok]

Reitrix, on 09 March 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

O.o
Not only does the Enforcer not have the Crit Slots for an AC20, how the crap did you intend to cram a 14 ton cannon with a 7 ton laser and still have an engine + ammo?

ENF-5P

[RedDevil]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

It's not hyperbole that it is not as effective as before. We had "MG feels worse" threads a while back (probably started by Bishop Steiner no less) and it hasn't really trickled into consciousness yet.

The math genuinely just verifies "the feeling" of the weapon. Sometimes the feel of a weapon is "too effective" and can actually be shown through math (kinda like the Thunderbolt-9S ERPPC overbuff/overquirk).

Still, people refuse to believe the math or the science or "the feels" and disagree w/o much thinking that goes into it.

Go figure.

Yeah I'm a new player, so I don't have a feel for any changes made more than a couple months ago, and of course I look at the OP of the guides. Mcgral18 cleared it up in a single post.

Edited by reddevil, 09 March 2015 - 09:52 AM.