191 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Creovex, on 10 March 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

I didn't buy the Phoenix packs if you paid more attention to detail and did play for a period of time on non-premium. To me it took longer then I preferred so I bought premium time.... Just like the mechanic of a F2P game is suppose to work, you want less time, chip in some coin...

And when I started, you didn't get the Cadet Achievements paying out 8 million and other achievements helping you along.

Don't like the Cbills, buy a Hero and/or Premium time. Still not happy with the payout, then maybe there is an issue. However F2P is a choice, pay or don't.... and at least you have access to the same content as premium players

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Look at this guy talk.

So you didn't get the Phoenix pack eh? Wow, that really must have hurt you on grinding when you have all the other packs. Just the fact you bought everything due to the grind taking longer, already justifies my argument.

Didn't start with cadet bonus? Did you know that PGI had given EVERYONE who had played before the implementation of Cadet bonus all the bonus C-Bills once achievements were implemented? You got yours as well as any other players. Talk about ignorance. Not to mention the fact that in pre-12 v12, casuals used to earn more C-Bills than now.

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 March 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

The economy in MWO is a bit slacking when it comes to payouts, that's a fact and we all know it.

That said, the 'grind' is about half of what it is in any OTHER F2P game, including LoL and WoT, where in order to get the top tier goodies, you don't only grind a LOT, you also end up having to spend real money to get the top toys.

Wrong. In LoL you can buy ALL the champions with in game currency. MWO on the other hand has Hero mechs that are MC only. Also it gates you with MC only mech bay. Add to that, LoL grind is arguably less than that of MWO since you can share rune pages with all the LoL champions you got, as opposed to MWO where it requires you to purchase upgrades such as Endo/FF/Artemis/DHS for each individual mechs.

Not to mention LoL boosters offer 100% gain, as opposed to 50% of MWO.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 March 2015 - 08:01 AM.

[Rossario x Vampire]

Lynx7725, on 09 March 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

I'm more curious how the OP got 9000XP. 200K in a game is reachable now if you do particularly well. Good matches, about 130k?

El Bandito, on 09 March 2015 - 10:16 PM, said:

Double XP weekend.

Nope. It's all done yesterday in a mid day.

[El Bandito]

Rossario x Vampire, on 10 March 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Nope. It's all done yesterday in a mid day.

Since double XP weekend ends officially on Tuesday, you should have received it.

http://mwomercs.com/...-xp-conversion/

[Mott]

Rossario x Vampire, on 10 March 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Nope. It's all done yesterday in a mid day.

Mine were done last night. I just assumed the Double XP was still active. Getting 12,000-16,000 XP repeatedly for 7 or 8 matches doesn't really happen for me.

El Bandito, on 10 March 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

Since double XP weekend ends officially on Tuesday, you should have received it.

http://mwomercs.com/...-xp-conversion/

Yeah, so, there you go. I figured as much since most events go Fri-Tues.

Edited by Mott, 10 March 2015 - 07:38 AM.

[DustySkunk]

MWO is very good about not hiding much content behind a paywall and generally has a very fair F2P model in terms of content availability. Paid content is primarily cosmetic options (and even then, there are colors that you can buy with c-bills) or early access. That said, in order to progress in a meaningful way, you will probably end up spending money in the form of mechbays at the very least....

....Which is all the more reason to increase c-bill rewards in some fashion as more mechs encourage mechbay purchases. Mechs that aren't Heroes or Champions can be bought for c-bills regardless, it's just a question of how much grind it takes to get there. Anyway, they will need a home in the hangar...

[SteelKiller]

MechWarrior5152251, on 10 March 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:

Kill stealing is an art form....

Truly.

[Jman5]

Raggedyman, on 10 March 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

What? You mean people who support the team and go for the win shouldn't get as good a payout as people that focus on personal glory??
Madness!!

The sad thing is that the current payout model is utterly indefensible in this regard when you break down the numbers. Whoever built the new payout model slapped it together, put it out into the wild, and only looked at it from a macro prospective. They saw the economy was still stable and left it at that. They didn't stop to think how their new payout model could impact player behavior negatively.

The only saving grace for what we have now is ignorance. People simply don't know how badly they are getting screwed when someone kill steals a solo kill from them.

It wouldn't even be very hard to fix. Remove the 10,000 cbill solo kill bonus, increase kill most damage reward from 5,000 to 10,000 (you get more of these so it evens out).

Now you go from potentially 21,300 cbills per kill to 16,300 cbills. However on the flip side you go from just 8,500 per assist to 13,500. On a macro scale the end result would probably be no more than an extra 5-10,000 cbills per match. However the important thing is that you close the gap between someone who got the last point of damage on a mech they mostly took down themselves and someone who did not get the last point of damage on a mech they mostly took down themselves.

I should also mention that this would not help people who just tap every single mech for 1 point of damage. Or people who come in at the last second and snag the kill. All this would do is alter the pay out scheme for situations where you get a kill most damage kill or assist.

Edited by Jman5, 10 March 2015 - 08:18 AM.

[FrDrake]

El Bandito, on 10 March 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Look at this guy talk.

So you didn't get the Phoenix pack eh? Wow, that really must have hurt you on grinding when you have all the other packs. Just the fact you bought everything due to the grind taking longer, already justifies my argument.

Didn't start with cadet bonus? Did you know that PGI had given EVERYONE who had played before the implementation of Cadet bonus all the bonus C-Bills for free? You got yours as well as any newbie. Talk about ignorance.





Wrong. In LoL you can buy ALL the champions with in game currency. MWO on the other hand has Hero mechs that are MC only. Also it gates you with MC only mech bay. Add to that, LoL grind is arguably less than that of MWO since you can share rune pages with all the LoL champions you got, as opposed to MWO where it requires you to purchase upgrades such as Endo/FF/Artemis/DHS for each individual mechs.

Not to mention LoL boosters offer 100% gain, as opposed to 50% of MWO.

Grinding for a champ in LoL is so much harder than grinding for a mech in this game. A game in LoL takes 45 minutes and you make on average 100 IP. It takes 6300 IP to buy a new champ. You're looking at around 50 hours to get any new champ.

Even being pretty bad at MWO you can get a million cbills every two hours. In the time you grind out a LoL champ you would have roughly 25 million cbills.

Runes are like modules, and while there isn't as nice a way to share them between mechs, you certainly can. A full set of quints runs you 6.5k IP which is back to another 50 hour grind.

The grind in MWO is similar to LoL, don't try to make anyone believe that LoL is less grindy than this. I've been playing LoL for years more than MWO and i still can only afford maybe 1/3 of the champs in the game, being entirely free2play in that game.

[C E Dwyer]

If you play like a solo player, doing their 'own thing' and don't make any attempt to play to the new system that rewards you, then you get shafted, if you play to the new system then you get big rewards.

Playing a light or medium and getting a rather small amount of damage and six or seven assists can pull you 200K.

People however won't adapt, as its easier to come here and QQ

[mogs01gt]

El Bandito, on 10 March 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Wrong. In LoL you can buy ALL the champions with in game currency. MWO on the other hand has Hero mechs that are MC only. Also it gates you with MC only mech bay. Add to that, LoL grind is arguably less than that of MWO since you can share rune pages with all the LoL champions you got, as opposed to MWO where it requires you to purchase upgrades such as Endo/FF/Artemis/DHS for each individual mechs.Not to mention LoL boosters offer 100% gain, as opposed to 50% of MWO.

Dont forget in LoL:
You face similar level opponents
Free champ rotation so you can use different champs weekly
The champs are at their peak performance unlike in MWO were trail mechs are horrid
LoL offers different game modes that generate in-game funds quicker than their normal mode
LoL is cheaper per champ/toon

I have every jungler in the game and havent really played in 3 years. I've spent three times the amount of money on MWO than LoL and have nothing.

FrDrake, on 10 March 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Grinding for a champ in LoL is so much harder than grinding for a mech in this game. A game in LoL takes 45 minutes and you make on average 100 IP. It takes 6300 IP to buy a new champ. You're looking at around 50 hours to get any new champ.

That isnt how you IP grind in LoL. Im not going into how to do it but you are wrong. It takes 6300 to get NEWER toons, you can have a functioning toon for 450. So 4 or 5 games, you could have a good original toon that you can use.

Quote

Even being pretty bad at MWO you can get a million cbills every two hours. In the time you grind out a LoL champ you would have roughly 25 million cbills.

In LoL, 2 hours is over 800 IP if you are IP farming. I see you dont know how. In 2 hours of MWO, 2mill gets you nothing.

Quote

Runes are like modules, and while there isn't as nice a way to share them between mechs, you certainly can. A full set of quints runs you 6.5k IP which is back to another 50 hour grind.

Runes are end game items that increase a roles ability to do its job early game. You dont touch runes until level 30. Certain modules are required to be an effective player, runes only help your early game.

Quote

The grind in MWO is similar to LoL, don't try to make anyone believe that LoL is less grindy than this. I've been playing LoL for years more than MWO and i still can only afford maybe 1/3 of the champs in the game, being entirely free2play in that game.

MWO grind is 10x worse than LoL.

Edited by mogs01gt, 10 March 2015 - 08:22 AM.

[GreyNovember]

So I just had a Conquest game. Dropped in a Loyalty Crab and my ping happened to be in the 4 digits range the whole fight.

I do believe the enemy team noticed this, and thus took it upon themselves to farm me for damage. Just as well, since I can't trust myself to hit anything at that latency.

I managed to score 41 damage, and then died. I likely only hit an Atlas who decided I wasn't worth twisting against.

The team ended up winning, and I got well over 100k in payment.

This doesn't seem right somehow.

[Kristov Kerensky]

You don't play many MMOs do you El Bandito? LoL, yes, you can spend 50 hours to grind out enough to buy a single champion, that is true. I don't know too many people who actually DO that though, I mean, 50 hours for a single champion, it's easier to drop some cash and be done with it. WoT on the other hand, that's a Pay2Win game without any questions, and it's grind, as it does have one, is far longer than MWO's, and it's a grind that doesn't even get you the top toys that are NEEDED to win, you still have to drop real cash for those. MWO, you drop cash for a Mech, you get the same thing everyone else gets performance-wise, and that's it, it's a convenience thing, that's all, same as LoL. You obviously have an issue with those of us who've invested in MWO, as that's what we've done, invested in the game. We get something for our investment, that's true, but if the game fails, we don't get to keep them, and we don't get an advantage from the things we've gotten, except we can make a bit more cbills than you can with a stock cbill only Mech. Is that it? You jelly because we make 150 cbills to your 100 in a few select Mechs, usually non-competitive Mechs at that?

Mechbays, yes, those are a cash item if you want extras, same as most F2P games charge you for extra character slots, it's the same thing. I don't recall ever WINNING an extra character slot in the MMOs I play just for playing an hour or so. There have been games that you COULD win an extra slot, but it usually came at the cost of a hundred or more hours of game time grinding faction points... MWO, I've won a number of Mechbays for playing for about an hour, something I would have done WITHOUT the incentive of a free Mechbay.

Takes me a grand total of 12 hours to Master a brand new Mech, that's Masterx3 by the way, only 8 hours to Master a single variant. In that same time frame, I'll make what I spent on the Mechs and then some, around 2m an hour for me, without premium time, 3m will premium time. I know what pays in the game, I do those things, I make cbills without a problem. You obviously don't, that's not a fault of the game or it's design, that's a player issue, get it straight before you scream about how bad it is. I mean, it's not like the game tells you when you do something that it pays X amount of cbills and xp..oh..wait, it DOES do that INGAME! How about that! Right in the middle of the screen no less, it tells you what you did, what it pays in cbills and xp, every single time.

Yes, the economy needs work, it should be paying out more, but not a whole LOT more, xp and cbill both, so that people can buy a new Mech a little quicker, but not too much more.

[Jetfire]

Jman5, on 09 March 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

The biggest problem with the economy is that there is too much emphasis on killing blows. Most people haven't broken down the numbers, but getting that last point of damage can have a huge impact on your money.

Let's Assume you busted your butt to kill a mech. However, in one situation you get the killing blow, but the other someone sneaks in and gets the last point of damage so you get an assist.

Kill
Killing blow: 4000
Kill Most Damage: 5,000
Solo Kill: 10,000
component destruction: 2300

Total: 21,300 cbills

Assist

Assist: 3,500
Kill Most Damage: 5,000

Total: 8,500 cbills

This means that in general there is an upper limit of 341,308CB per mech average for a perfectly played match with 12 kill and each player scoring 11 assists. Realistically it is more like 45k CB with 12 kills and 3 avg assists per mech.

Honestly I think the last income balance element that needs to be added is payment for absorbing damage. Tanking for your team should provide earnings, especially if you live. A sliding scale of say minimal CB for low dmg up to large CB for high dmg with a 2x multiplier for surviving.

[El Bandito]

FrDrake, on 10 March 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Grinding for a champ in LoL is so much harder than grinding for a mech in this game. A game in LoL takes 45 minutes and you make on average 100 IP. It takes 6300 IP to buy a new champ. You're looking at around 50 hours to get any new champ.

Even being pretty bad at MWO you can get a million cbills every two hours. In the time you grind out a LoL champ you would have roughly 25 million cbills.

Runes are like modules, and while there isn't as nice a way to share them between mechs, you certainly can. A full set of quints runs you 6.5k IP which is back to another 50 hour grind.

The grind in MWO is similar to LoL, don't try to make anyone believe that LoL is less grindy than this. I've been playing LoL for years more than MWO and i still can only afford maybe 1/3 of the champs in the game, being entirely free2play in that game.

If you think LoL matches on average lasts 45 minutes then you do clearly not play LoL much. The average match lasts around 30 minutes at most, with many ending at 20 minutes due to people surrendering.

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 March 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

You obviously have an issue with those of us who've invested in MWO, as that's what we've done, invested in the game. We get something for our investment, that's true, but if the game fails, we don't get to keep them, and we don't get an advantage from the things we've gotten, except we can make a bit more cbills than you can with a stock cbill only Mech. Is that it? You jelly because we make 150 cbills to your 100 in a few select Mechs, usually non-competitive Mechs at that?

Listen to this blind guy talk. I have the same Elite Founder badge as you, I too have invested in this game. I have over 50 mechs, and I also own Hero mechs such as the Dragon Slayer and the Ember.

I am jelly because I earn 100K to your 150K? Take the scum out of your eyes and see the front page where I posted my earning in a screenshot. Hint: It is 150K. The point is that even 150K is low considering the effort it requires. Back in 8v8 I could have earned 250K with such stats--and it did not rely on lucky draws such as Savior Kills.

You need to think first, before you type, kiddo.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 March 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[zolop]

Major problems with the MWO grind to mechs as that their is not enough content to keep new players interested. If every battle equates to C_Bills the game has no depth after the battle. Now when CW is out of Beta maybe it will have all the features that will give MWO depth.

Ways in the future to keep new players interested
-Salvage system where you can salvage mech parts, equipment and weapons all with different rarities (Greater the cost of the item less chance to get it at end of match)
-Get parts of a mech that are almost destroyed, need to be repaired to put together a complete mech. Subsystems would have their own cost
-Actual in depth training modules (Which PGI has confirmed they are working on), like co-op missions / VR missions

Ways to bring depth to CW
...took text out, need to look at the full feature list of CW before I make assumptions.

I think the major problem with the MWO grind right now is that their is no depth in the games features besides grinding C-bills for new mechs (faction ranks). Their is no Meta (besides faction loyalty ranks) in the game right now, at least until CW is fully released with its features. PGI needs something more than C_Bill rewards to keep players interested in this game, there is so much more they could add from battletech to make MWO far more interesting...

BTW Agree on the emphisis on the MWO C_Bills reward is based too much on the killing blow... as the stats displayed above show (jman5)

Edited by zolop, 10 March 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Jman5]

mogs01gt, on 10 March 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Dont forget in LoL:
You face similar level opponents

I think it's a little unfair to compare LoL's matchmaking with MWO. League of Legend is the biggest game out there with an utterly massive playerbase.

Personally, I think the MWO does a pretty competent job in the solo queue with the playerbase it has to work with. With group queue though... What can you do when your top 100 players in the game are mostly clustered into just 3-4 units that always play together? The odds that those 3-4 units are searching for a match simultaneously are always going to be somewhat low.

[mogs01gt]

Jman5, on 10 March 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

I think it's a little unfair to compare LoL's matchmaking with MWO. League of Legend is the biggest game out there with an utterly massive playerbase.

Personally, I think the MWO does a pretty competent job in the solo queue with the playerbase it has to work with. With group queue though... What can you do when your top 100 players in the game are mostly clustered into just 3-4 units that always play together? The odds that those 3-4 units are searching for a match simultaneously are always going to be somewhat low.

What would also help MM is reducing it from 12v12 to 8v8 depending on map size.

[Jman5]

Jetfire, on 10 March 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

This means that in general there is an upper limit of 341,308CB per mech average for a perfectly played match with 12 kill and each player scoring 11 assists. Realistically it is more like 45k CB with 12 kills and 3 avg assists per mech.

Honestly I think the last income balance element that needs to be added is payment for absorbing damage. Tanking for your team should provide earnings, especially if you live. A sliding scale of say minimal CB for low dmg up to large CB for high dmg with a 2x multiplier for surviving.

I'm not entirely sure how you came to that number, but there are a lot of other rewards out there that are kill-shot independent so I didn't include them. Savior Kills for example can be from kills or assist as long as you knick the mech 10 seconds prior to him dying.

Damage taken rewards is a tricky one to design. You can't just pay people for surviving a match or people would wind up hiding after the game is lost. This would be particularly bad in conquest and assault where games can end without killing the enemy completely. You would also need some way to discourage teammates from shooting each other up to rack up the reward in games that are clearly clinched. You would need to introduce a Friendly Fire penalty to the game. -42 cbills per FF damage.

Another problem is the assumption that getting your butt whooped by the enemy team is desirable. Is the guy who uselessly ran out into the open, getting shot up and nearly dying doing something valuable? Or did he just do something dumb? Perhaps if you couched it with a proximity requirement. So players who take damage while close to a teammate gets the reward. But dummy who runs out into the open by himself gets nothing.

[Creovex]

El Bandito, on 10 March 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Look at this guy talk.

So you didn't get the Phoenix pack eh? Wow, that really must have hurt you on grinding when you have all the other packs. Just the fact you bought everything due to the grind taking longer, already justifies my argument.

Actually the truth of the situation is my free time is not that of a teenager or college student (F2P target market), I am past F2P and in the "older" demographic who have other responsibilities which take up the excess of my free time so that is why I pay for premium or buy the packs. I want to play what I want, when I want, and I spend the cash to do so and support the game.

Back when I was in my teens through my 20s, there was no such thing as F2P. We bought games and had to live with it. Now you get to play it and get stuff without dropping a dollar. I can see how you are so hurt by a grind.... Try playing the original Everquest with load screens and dial up modems... want to talk about a grind.... Yeah.

Man I can see why you are ranting... Your spoiled and want more "something for nothing".

Bottomline - If you want a bigger payout or think your time is more valuable then the current rate you are acquiring cbills, buy some Premium time or a Hero Mech.

It isn't about how low their rate of earning is, but about how cheap you are.

Go play WoT and try not to buy anything.... the game is a blackhole grind. This one you can do.

El Bandito, on 10 March 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

Listen to this blind guy talk. I have the same Elite Founder badge as you, I too have invested in this game. I have over 50 mechs, and I also own Hero mechs such as the Dragon Slayer and the Ember.

I am jelly because I earn 100K to your 150K? Take the scum out of your eyes and see the front page where I posted my earning in a screenshot. Hint: It is 150K. The point is that even 150K is low considering the effort it requires. Back in 8v8 I could have earned 250K with such stats--and it did not rely on lucky draws such as Savior Kills.

Stop being cheap, buy something else. Founders has been over for years... Not to mention the Ember and Dragon Slayer were probably bought with Founder Cbills during the 50% off Hero Mech sale thus I doubt you spent anything since 2012.... You got 100-150k because you aren't the best pilot and don't have premium time. Live with it or fork up some cash.

Edited by Creovex, 10 March 2015 - 09:50 AM.

[Mott]

Creovex, on 10 March 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Actually the truth of the situation is my free time is not that of a teenager or college student (F2P target market), I am past F2P and in the "older" demographic who have other responsibilities which take up the excess of my free time so that is why I pay for premium or buy the packs. I want to play what I want, when I want, and I spend the cash to do so and support the game.

Back when I was in my teens through my 20s, there was no such thing as F2P. We bought games and had to live with it. Now you get to play it and get stuff without dropping a dollar. I can see how you are so hurt by a grind.... Try playing the original Everquest with load screens and dial up modems... want to talk about a grind.... Yeah.

Man I can see why you are ranting... Your spoiled and want more "something for nothing".

Bottomline - If you want a bigger payout or think your time is more valuable then the current rate you are acquiring cbills, buy some Premium time or a Hero Mech.

It isn't about how low their rate of earning is, but about how cheap you are.

Go play WoT and try not to buy anything.... the game is a blackhole grind. This one you can do.

^^ This.

So much of this. ALLLLLLLL OF THIS!

As you move through life, your priorities change. Time is much more rare for me at this point than gaming funds are.

I cannot dedicate 20+ hrs per week to video games. I could never do well in MWO if i relied only on grinding. So, i pay to get around the grind wall. As a result, i have an awesome stable of mechs, all of the ones i enjoy are mastered, i rarely have to swap engines and weapons any more, and i'm working on multiples of all essential modules, when most folks who rely solely on grinding can barely afford to try a new mech they're interested in.

I feel for anyone who is strapped for cash... but that doesn't mean i want the game designed around them and their wants. Seriously... wtf is wrong with people that they expect a company spending millions on game development to do it for FREE?