191 replies to this topic

[Xmith]

Jman5, on 09 March 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

The biggest problem with the economy is that there is too much emphasis on killing blows. Most people haven't broken down the numbers, but getting that last point of damage can have a huge impact on your money.

Let's Assume you busted your butt to kill a mech. However, in one situation you get the killing blow, but the other someone sneaks in and gets the last point of damage so you get an assist.

Kill
Killing blow: 4000
Kill Most Damage: 5,000
Solo Kill: 10,000
component destruction: 2300

Total: 21,300 cbills

Assist

Assist: 3,500
Kill Most Damage: 5,000

Total: 8,500 cbills

I believe it's intended to give the little guys a piece of the pie.

It happens a lot. As long as I get most damage, I'm okay with it.

This reminds of a line from a B.B. King song.

"The rats told the roaches to let the bed bugs have some too."

[Lindonius]

Paulconomy would be fixed within a month if you lot all got organised and stopped putting money into it.

[Jman5]

Mizeur, on 10 March 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Sure, you can lose out on 12,800 CBills with a split second of timing. But how often does that happen in a game on average?

The luck of getting Saviour and Defensive Skills and the ability to be in position for the other bonuses has a larger impact on earnings.

If you're the kind of person who tends to be near the top team damage when you play, it will happen most games. Every time you're shooting at a mech with others and you only get an assist + kill most damage for it, that's 12,800 down the drain because someone was a little quicker on the trigger or your aim was very slightly off at the last moment.

[badaa]

the "paulconomy" every ones bitching about is the end match rewards, this is the stupid **** that makes the devs ignore the forums

[Xetelian]

KodiakGW, on 10 March 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

It seems that they are quite happy with the way it is, and have no plans to change anything.

Something is wrong you earn the GXP to unlock weapon modules faster than you earn the CBills to pay for them.

I've gotten to the point where I don't need GXP any more but I still don't have enough advanced zooms.

[Logan Hawke]

You know, this problem would disappear and everyone would be okay with the current in game economy if we didn't have to master three mechs to get a chassis completed.

That's what it comes down to; either increase the rewards so the length of time spent grinding for those three chassis, two of which the player may not want, is reasonable. Or get rid of the dumb requirement for mastery.

[Koniks]

Jman5, on 10 March 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

If you're the kind of person who tends to be near the top team damage when you play, it will happen most games. Every time you're shooting at a mech with others and you only get an assist + kill most damage for it, that's 12,800 down the drain because someone was a little quicker on the trigger or your aim was very slightly off at the last moment.

I understand the principle. It's possible to quantify that. I obviously don't have a large enough sample size but my hunch is that even if there are some games where someone else sneaks in with the killing blow on 5-6 kills, it's probably offset by 1) how often a player who does that kind of damage makes up for it with their own sneaky kills in other matches and 2) it's probably not that common an occurence, even for good players.

So I think on the downside, it's more likely we're talking about 12,800-25,600 CBIlls/game than 50k+ CBills/game. Except maybe in CW.

And a good player is going to offset a lot of that with their own sneaky kills. The other bonuses, especially the randomness of Saviour Kills, probably have a bigger per match impact.

Edited by Mizeur, 10 March 2015 - 09:39 PM.

[Vocis]

Meeso Thorny, on 10 March 2015 - 04:39 AM, said:

Everyone has to buy 3, so the system is a good idea? Can someone explain to me how driving a dodge charger, dodge challenger, and dodge magnum would increase the top speed of the charger?

The point of making people buy variants was to sell mech bays and cosmetics.

By gimping the Cbills income they dropped the demand for MC accordingly.

[Parnage Winters]

Up Assist rewards, let both sides get salvage see how it goes. Kills should be rewarded but teamwork and focus fire should just as valued. I like teamwork, do you not?

Either scrap the pilot skills or fix them. I don't mind buying three variants, I do mind grinding out XP on talent trees half of which don't do anything.

Maybe also stop thinking anyone who thinks that the rewards could use a tweak are either lazy ***** or bads. Maybe not make yourself look like a surat and argue your actual points not stories of 250k games every time and that no problem exists.

Just an idea..

[Duke Nedo]

Rewards are perfectly fine if you have a cbill bonus mech and premium time, and if you havn't you really have to work for your cbills... so I'd say it's exactly where they want it. If you spend MC you get a smooth ride.

Can't say I blame PGI, if they don't get paid we don't get to play, simple as that. Of course it's a bit grindy, it must be!

So for everyone who expects a smooth ride and a free lunch at the same time, at least be grateful to the guys who actually pays for the game so that you can play it for free.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 10 March 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

Right, and the monotony of glorified arena death matches only serves to amplify the grind.

Its not a grind if you are having fun. Folks are bored cause the game has no... reason. Fighting for the sake of fighting loses it shine. I do not judge the fun of playing by what I earn. I judge it by how fun it is to trudge around and shoot you. Some matches suck, other rock teh heavens. How much I am paid for having fun is unimportant. If someone thinks the game is to much work, they are not playing the game.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 March 2015 - 01:55 AM.

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2015 - 01:54 AM, said:

Its not a grind if you are having fun. Folks are bored cause the game has no... reason. Fighting for the sake of fighting loses it shine. I do not judge the fun of playing by what I earn. I judge it by how fun it is to trudge around and shoot you. Some matches suck, other rock teh heavens. How much I am paid for having fun is unimportant. If someone thinks the game is to much work, they are not playing the game.

Your post only reinforces what I said about monotony exacerbates the feeling of the grind. That is all.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 March 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 11 March 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

Your post only reinforces what I said about monotony exacerbates the feeling of the grind. That is all.

Oh... So the grind is all in our head and how we perceive our effort defines how we feel about the game. Got it!

(I'm not being snarky El.)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 March 2015 - 03:55 AM.

[Sjorpha]

I make enough money now, but I did feel that the grind as a new player was extremely harsh.

So this is mainly a new player retention problem, there needs to be acceptable earnings for below average performers. It is very important to me that these players are having fun, because a significant part of my own fun is killing them.

PGI pls fix.

Also if the game had more context, history and general fluff and each mech more player generated personality (write a personal backstory, automatic battle logs, decals, optional geometry changes like different heads, hands etc, a slider for age/dirt/damages and so on) the grind would feel less bad since each mech would be more special and it would then be ok that buying a new mech was a very big thing. Increase the frequency of granular rewards and the work for big rewards don't feel as overwhelming.

And PVE missions that also give cbill rewards, so new players can take a break from being stomped and still work towards their next mech.

[Duke Nedo]

Sjorpha, on 11 March 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

I make enough money now, but I did feel that the grind as a new player was extremely harsh.

So this is mainly a new player retention problem, there needs to be acceptable earnings for below average performers. It is very important to me that these players are having fun, because a significant part of my own fun is killing them.

This part I very much agree with. The first objective should be to catch the attention of new players, then make them pay for things much later on when they are hooked like the rest of us. Someone suggested handing out a starting package at some point, perhaps that makes more sense than the cbill bonuses they get now. Let them pick one of the Light mastery packages where the Hero is replaced by a variant that is not already in the pack, but leave the Champion in so that they get the core equipment the need to run the chassi.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sjorpha, on 11 March 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

I make enough money now, but I did feel that the grind as a new player was extremely harsh.

So this is mainly a new player retention problem, there needs to be acceptable earnings for below average performers. It is very important to me that these players are having fun, because a significant part of my own fun is killing them.

PGI pls fix.

Also if the game had more context, history and general fluff and each mech more player generated personality (write a personal backstory, automatic battle logs, decals, optional geometry changes like different heads, hands etc, a slider for age/dirt/damages and so on) the grind would feel less bad since each mech would be more special and it would then be ok that buying a new mech was a very big thing. Increase the frequency of granular rewards and the work for big rewards don't feel as overwhelming.

And PVE missions that also give cbill rewards, so new players can take a break from being stomped and still work towards their next mech.

I guess it depends on what a Player considers harsh. When I started playing I had never played a PvP game since Mortal Combat. My expectations were to not do well to start and then to learn how to play better as I got some experience. I didn't have bonuses for 25 games.

In a game that has no beginning middle or end how fast is progression meant to be? And then what is the right progression for some is not for others. A game creator has way to many opinions if he is going to listen to the players on how a game should play.

[Ens]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

In a game that has no beginning middle or end how fast is progression meant to be? And then what is the right progression for some is not for others. A game creator has way to many opinions if he is going to listen to the players on how a game should play.

one of the best posts i read in the last year or so!

+1 to you, sir

[Mudhutwarrior]

I should be able to spend real money for what I want not what I have to have to exist here in any reasonable way.

I have no issue with grinding for items I need but when I buy a package and have to invest millions to make them viable the grind starts to be too much.

With the introduction of module the c-bill nerf should have returned to what it was. It was stupid for them to expect us to grind out so much for so little in return.

I used to supplement my time with experimenting with builds and having fun trying new layouts. Now that is over because every cbill I spend has to go to kitting out mechs I own. I said screw it and spent cash on some fun ideas but now I am in a months long cycle to Finnish out mechs I spent real money on.

Its just not so much fun anymore and I am certainly not giving PGI another damned dollar.

[DustySkunk]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

I guess it depends on what a Player considers harsh. When I started playing I had never played a PvP game since Mortal Combat. My expectations were to not do well to start and then to learn how to play better as I got some experience. I didn't have bonuses for 25 games.

In a game that has no beginning middle or end how fast is progression meant to be? And then what is the right progression for some is not for others. A game creator has way to many opinions if he is going to listen to the players on how a game should play.

Joseph, I understand completely where you are coming from. Just some thoughts on progression and the new player experience...

I think the key here is that there is a means for a minimum level of progression per any given period of time invested, and the perceived challenge (grind) is not insurmountable. C-bills are the gate-keepers of progression in MWO, as they are the primary requirement for all new equipment. As of now, it's easily possible for a new player to end up in a position where it is very difficult to advance.

As we all know, the cost of a mech is not just the sale price. With a few exceptions, you are going to need to put in double heat sinks, endo-steel, an new engine, and kit out the weapon loadout for the mech to begin to be competitive. A bad purchase at first could easily screw a new player. Imagine you've just started out and finished your Cadet Bonus. You have just enough C-Bills to buy an Atlas. Yay! You piloted the trial Atlas and loved it, so you figure "that's my mech." So you buy it expecting a similar experience. Now though, you can't afford any of the upgrades I mentioned above. Anyone here try dropping in an unmodified stock totally unskilled mech lately? It's hard enough for folks that know what they are doing. Now remember that you need somewhere between a third or a half of the cost of the mech in the first place to buy those basic upgrades.... then you still need to actually buy the heatsinks, the weapons, and a new engine. All while earning 40k c-bills a match because you can't be very competitive.

Yes, players can continue to drop in the trials to earn the cash they need, but then as they hit the skill trees for the first time they realize they need three of these mechs to master the chassis, all three of which need the same upgrades as the first....all of this could easily be perceived as a nearly insurmountable climb. No it's not actually insurmountable but it has the potential to put a lot of people off the game, yes?

This scenario happens often enough. We see some folks make their way here and threads pop up in the New Player Help subforum with titles like "Help! I just bought XXXX and I need advice." or "I got XXXX and I don't know what to do with it." Those are just the players that actually make it to the forums. Imagine all the folks that don't.

The argument can be made that this is something all new players need to go through to some extent or another to play the game. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but there is often an attitude on the forums that since we have survived the trial by fire and gotten to where we are now, other people should as well if they want to play and "join the club." To this I would say that yes, we did survive and thrive, but that doesn't mean the system can't be improved. For every person that made it, there are others that didn't who would otherwise be perfectly reasonable people to have join our community. We often hear people grumbling about seeing the same people over and over in matches, or that there are 30 minute wait times in CW. There is a solution to this, and I think we're getting to the heart of it here.

The way I see it, we don't want to just hand players things without earning them. That would remove all challenge and I'm not advocating that, but there are many things that can be done to mitigate these issues and revise the rewards system so that there is a means to continually progress on some level that is meaningful regardless of match performance. There have been many good suggestions in this thread and on the forums in general. I just hope someone in PGI is paying attention.

[Sorbic]

I started to get my girlfriend into the game a while back but after she saw all the costs and how much I earned while being top/near top damage/kills in matches she did the math and went back to her games... The cadet bonuses are nice but dry up after a short time and having to pay full price to bounce back and forth on upgrades discourages newbies learning what they like.

Frankly I had decided that I was going to hold off spending any more until I saw a bump in rewards (or maybe some sweet game tweak) but my girlf dropped some money on the game as a birthday gift so I'm still running premium time. At the very least I'd like to see a fairly big bump on "damage done" payouts which are currently pathetic. As it is a single killing blow is worth as much as 572 damage even if it's the only hit you landed on that mech.