190 replies to this topic

[Kain Demos]

Soy, on 09 March 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

ninja mech or glass cannon.

LOL......both the terms I always use to describe it. Now that Mining Collective is back it is nice to have a another "Nova Friendly" map back in the rotation. Along with Viridian Bog and River City (playing king kong on the citadel) it is a fantastic map to be sneaky in with JJs and dish out the pain from above.

[Glaive-]

True, the Nova can output huge amounts of damage, and it can be very mobile with the JJs, despite the small engine.
However, the large size of the Nova will always make it sub-par. It is simply too easy to gun down/disarm though focused fire.

With that said, I've been playing mine quite often lately, and I've noticed that it can spread damage pretty well. I've noticed that more often than not, I die as a result of getting legged.


Btw, I hope you don't mind if I run your build for a bit. Not sure why I never thought of dropping two SPLs for an extra pair of DHS.

[Anarcho]

It dont have enough speed to hit and run
ANY mech is a good mech when running along others and not being the focus of enemy fire.

The Nova has two options since re-scaling is out of question:

-More armor/structure to be able to survive enough to use all its short/medium range potential

-More speed to be able to punch and run

IMO I would prefer more structure and armor, since we have the Ice Ferret to be a fast harasser.

[Ultimax]

Kain Thul, on 09 March 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

No, but I was talking to cSand as he disagreed. Soy mentions in his OP that he knows it falls under focus fire so if that is all you have got that is all you have got.

When the Nova gets its "quirk pass" if all they do is buff the STs/Arms with armor/structure I would be satisfied. It needs to be remodeled but that will never happen.

Unfortunately remodeling the mechs is...unlikely. This would be the ideal solution for the Nova and most of the mechs in the 50 to 65 ton range.


I suggested to Russ in PMs that the Nova gets Internal Structure boosts to RA/LA/RL/LL/RT/LT.

[Soy]

armyunit, on 09 March 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

True, the Nova can output huge amounts of damage, and it can be very mobile with the JJs, despite the small engine.
However, the large size of the Nova will always make it sub-par. It is simply too easy to gun down/disarm though focused fire.

With that said, I've been playing mine quite often lately, and I've noticed that it can spread damage pretty well. I've noticed that more often than not, I die as a result of getting legged.


Btw, I hope you don't mind if I run your build for a bit. Not sure why I never thought of dropping two SPLs for an extra pair of DHS.

Nice analysis...

I understand about being focused fired. Definitely ruins this mech a lot faster than others.

One single well-placed pinpoint from a sniper is going to potentially take this mech down to half efficiency. If that is how a round opens up, you're behind the 8ball in a very troubling way. Minimizing this by limiting exposure before the round gets heated is the only 'sure-fire' solution I have to deal with this currently (still testing other... things .

But lets be honest - what mech doesn't get ruined in focus fire? Really. What's an extra 5-10 secs of soaking? It's not an assault, know what I mean? If it's vanguarding that hard, something else tactically got mucked up or the Nova pilot is out of position/got steamrolled by unchecked push. Reminds me, I cannot imagine trying to play a build like this on any mech without Seismic. And Cooldown5 Modules, that's what makes the TTK so fast or helps you throw another arm on a rear red core (if some derp uses ~20 rear armor).

Btw... I don't get why people have to go 6/6, 5/5 is a lot better on the heat. If you like the 6 ML and 6 SL, try knocking one of each off and throw in an extra heatsink (if you're at max armor, take legs to 40 head 16 and then one more heatsink).

Anarcho, on 09 March 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

It dont have enough speed to hit and run
ANY mech is a good mech when running along others and not being the focus of enemy fire.

The Nova has two options since re-scaling is out of question:

-More armor/structure to be able to survive enough to use all its short/medium range potential

-More speed to be able to punch and run

IMO I would prefer more structure and armor, since we have the Ice Ferret to be a fast harasser.

More good objectivity...

I like how you make the clear distinction of the Ferret being the 'fast' medium, I respect that. So I can understand why you would say armor/structure given the previous sentence. Good point, maybe not what we'll end up seeing though, ya know.

Edited by Soy, 09 March 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 09 March 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

Unfortunately remodeling the mechs is...unlikely.

Unfortunately the misconceptions about mech being unable to be scaled properly still persist as well. Considering I can load the mech up in Blender with its rig and scale the root bone and all is maintained (easier than I thought it was). Whether the animations hold is another story.

Not to be too much of a conspiracy theorist, but I almost think the reason they don't want to rescale anything is because of technical problems, but it means admitting they were wrong and that is something PGI has been resistant to on numerous occasions, but that's perhaps getting off topic....

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 09 March 2015 - 03:31 PM.

[Augustus Martelus II]

Because i was using wub way before it was popular i remember when everyone was saying how pulses lasers sucks lol....SO i feel you on this haha

Nice video

[Big Tin Man]

What the nova suffers from other than being large and wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiddddddeee:

Clan small lasers and medium lasers being in the same ghost heat group. Yeah, I said it.

[Zordicron]

Here are my thoughts as a 100%(well ok almost) pug player in solo land-

It is as fragile as a raven, except instead of giant leg hitboxes it has giant ST hitboxes. That said, somehow, it isnt that hard to get at least 300 dmg even when your derp team is getting stomped. I credit clan ML for this. My loadouts, on all 3(I havent "bought" the newest clan mechs of any chassis yet) dumped half the lasers. 12 laser point arms? pffft, the Sarna loadouts have that, but MWO doesnt have a low cap high dissipation heat system to allow "pair fireing" in chainfire style to maintain high laser DPS on a target. So, I run 6 ML, and I had some with MG, but then for some insane reason PGI actually nerfed MG, and I find them to be completly pointless again, especially considering the facetime they automatically add.

So, mostly, I run giant clan version of Jenner F, except the ST are more fragile by a lot, and it is more clumsy by a lot. it makes up for it by being able to poor on more damage for a longer time than any Jenner could hope for because it can handle the heat of 6 lasers, even clan ones.

What the Nova needs, IMO:

NOT agility quirks. I mean c'mon man! This thing wasnt supposed to have torso twist lol. However, I would love to see some JJ acceleration quirks, to allow the thing to pop over hills easier. Otherwise, there isnt much point in having the jets. It isnt actually going to be good at poptarting lol, not with low hardpoints and clan laser durations, or tonnage to mount any kind of decent PPC/Gauss alpha. But it would be nice to have them actually allow some vertical movment for the Nova, in place of agility.

Second, ST on line with the HBK quirks. I dont care if the arms are fragile, thats tactical to arm a mech to remove weapons. NOBODY DOES THAT, because it is harder to hit the arms than the ST, and why the hell would you, when the ST does the same thing, PLUS smacks the heatsinks off, plus, smacks the engine heatsinks off. So, make the ST durable, so arms become a more solid priority for disarming the thing.

Third: ERML duration quirks! I actually don't care about the heat even, just allow the Nova to be GOOD at ERML, by reducing it's facetime to use them, by a significant amount. It would then remain mostly a glass cannon(though ST buffs make it so a Spider isnt more tanky) but it would require an enemy to actually make a determined effort at returning fire to land a hit, as opposed to now, where a nova player has to stand in the open, and then wait for an eternity for the clan laser array to do its thing before it can return to cover to cool.

I know a lot of people would want to see heat quirks. IMO, those should be general energy heat quirks. Make it GOOD at ERML by reducing face time, maybe some minor range. Make it OK at any energy loadout, by reducing some heat output.



Things that would indirectly buff the Nova: flamers, MG, adding a 2 or 3 ton ballistic with good range.

[RedDevil]

BTW, is it a good idea to run T-Comp 1 on a Nova?

[Ultimax]

Soy, on 09 March 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

Btw... I don't get why people have to go 6/6, 5/5 is a lot better on the heat. If you like the 6 ML and 6 SL, try knocking one of each off and throw in an extra heatsink (if you're at max armor, take legs to 40 head 16 and then one more heatsink).

The reason so many people go 6/6 is also a part of the reason people think clan mechs are intrinsically hotter than IS mechs.

They equate 6 MLAS with 6 CERMEDS, which obviously is flawed thinking.

This is my personal challenge, to break this particular mental construct for as many posters on the forums as possible.


Once they are able to step back and logically think about it, and see that 5x CERMLAS is 35 damage which is roughly similar to 4x LLAS at 36 damage - they will start to realize why they are "running too hot".



That, and well, I think people feel compelled to fill every single hardpoint with a weapon.

WM Quicksilver, on 09 March 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

Unfortunately the misconceptions about mech being unable to be scaled properly still persist as well. Considering I can load the mech up in Blender with its rig and scale the root bone and all is maintained (easier than I thought it was). Whether the animations hold is another story.

Not to be too much of a conspiracy theorist, but I almost think the reason they don't want to rescale anything is because of technical problems, but it means admitting they were wrong and that is something PGI has been resistant to on numerous occasions, but that's perhaps getting off topic....

I'm not saying it would be impossible to do, I'm saying that in every game I've played getting animation redone has always been something development teams seem very reluctant to do and often cite it being non-trivial.

That probably goes double in this game with the unique aspect of components/hitboxes.

Russ already acknowledged it was an issue on twitter for the 50-65 ton range, but I don't have it saved.

[Soy]

Eldagore, on 09 March 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

This thing wasnt supposed to have torso twist lol. However, I would love to see some JJ acceleration quirks, to allow the thing to pop over hills easier. Otherwise, there isnt much point in having the jets. It isnt actually going to be good at poptarting lol, not with low hardpoints and clan laser durations

..?

Ultimatum X, on 09 March 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

That, and well, I think people feel compelled to fill every single hardpoint with a weapon.

Lol definitely.

Edited by Soy, 09 March 2015 - 03:53 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Cool video with good gameplay!

Like said the hitboxes are a big problem... If you tank your about to lose your arm (and probably half of your weapons) doing so. I found it extremely irritating... Like basically you have to twist around like a light mech on speed to spread everything properly. So the positioning and waiting is pretty much essential for your short range weaponry and that way it's not really a skirmisher.. Even when peeking the huge arms take hits every time.

I leveled these with couple of builds... One was similiar like OPs post with SPLs but without speed tweak I was pretty much stuck to a waiting game and hitting behind my fatties. Other one was asymmetrical laser vomit that I could easily work with but still losing the arms easily. The biggest problem I think was the speed... Couldn't effectively get out from bad spots. Lol a timmy runs as fast as a Nova and there's quite a difference in the hitboxes, armor and weaponry.

Also the legs, damn. Sometimes I felt like I wasn't taking damage anywhere else than legs and arms. The mech is so flat You'd probably destroy it's head, side torsos and ct at once when hit with a hammer.

It kinda reminds me of Boar's Head. Majority of weapons in arms that you want to use for tanking but really can't cus you will loose the punch. Obviously some RA/LA internal boost is needed. Also it needs help in maneuvering. I get it that speed boost is out of the question but accelerate / stop quirks should help it quite a bit. Weapon wise it's in a nice spot for it's size cus let's face it some 10spl 4mg nova is something you do not want to stare at around 100 meters. The problem for the nova is how to get to that range.

[Ultimax]

reddevil, on 09 March 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

BTW, is it a good idea to run T-Comp 1 on a Nova?

If you are running lasers on a clan mech you should almost always have a T1 Comp.

[Soy]

Ultimatum X, on 09 March 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

If you are running lasers on a clan mech you should almost always have a T1 Comp.

I don't. I figure I don't need to crit seek, just need to keep TTK high and cooldown as quick as possible. So straight cDHS (and armor).

That's just how I roll though.

Mcgral was speaking the other day about the TC1 for this mech and I can see reasons for even using cAP if wanting to look at paperdoll is something you're keen on. I typically just try and memorize everything on the fly and not go by paperdoll.

Edited by Soy, 09 March 2015 - 03:56 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 09 March 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

The reason so many people go 6/6 is also a part of the reason people think clan mechs are intrinsically hotter than IS mechs.

They equate 6 MLAS with 6 CERMEDS, which obviously is flawed thinking.

This is my personal challenge, to break this particular mental construct for as many posters on the forums as possible.


Once they are able to step back and logically think about it, and see that 5x CERMLAS is 35 damage which is roughly similar to 4x LLAS at 36 damage - they will start to realize why they are "running too hot".



That, and well, I think people feel compelled to fill every single hardpoint with a weapon.






I'm not saying it would be impossible to do, I'm saying that in every game I've played getting animation redone has always been something development teams seem very reluctant to do and often cite it being non-trivial.

That probably goes double in this game with the unique aspect of components/hitboxes.

Russ already acknowledged it was an issue on twitter for the 50-65 ton range, but I don't have it saved.

I figured I'd just point it out I wasn't singling you out, you just happened to bring it up last.

Honestly I have no clue whether or not the animations would even need to be redone. I've just always heard that parts of the model don't scale correctly and that was the reason cited for why they won't rescale. My little experience in 3D modelling and small taste in linear algebra says that should be trivial however so that can't be the case. Textures, models, and the rig should all have no problem with being scaled. Not to mention I have the Vindicator rigged currently in blender using Heffay's importer and process and scaling is very much trivial if everything is rigged correctly.

[Mcgral18]

Well, I've sat through half of your video, and have learnt nothing. All I see is a "L33t Montag3" of nitpicked shots. I'll struggle through it after writing this.


It also doesn't address the overwhelming downsides are part of the Nova. Terrible construction rules, some of the worst hitboxes in the game, and rather poor hardpoint placement.

Shall we make a quick Smurfy to discuss the construction rules?
Here we have the Nova:
TBT-NopeVa
Swap that to a 255 and gain a Kph for nothing.

Go to a 280XL with Endo and gain a ton of pod space, at the cost of 5 crit slots (engine DHS slot, save 2, Endo costs 7)
Nova-280


But wait! Change that to an XL300, drop a single JJ, and suddenly you've lost a half ton of pod space, while you're now moving at 107! That's with 4 JJs and it only cost you 2 crit slots, since you've saved 5 from 2 DHS (now in the 300 engine) and lost the CT JJ.
Nova-300


The Nova itself can pack some weapons. It can do well...as long as you're never seen. As soon as someone has seen you at 300M, you're royally screwed.
I have a love hate with the chassis...sometimes I take the 10-12 laser builds, do well, then get that one terribad match and get ganked at 400M without being able to touch them. Then I swap to the 6 ERML build, do well, then get that one terribad match and get the arm Penta Gaussed straight off. So I grab a 12 laser build, etc....

It's far too large, it could be designed far better, though at least it gets 10 TrueDubs.


There are worse robots out there, this one is salvageable, but it's got far too many downsides to be taken seriously. Those stem from mechlab restrictions and the physical attributes of the mech.

It's a good glass cannon, I suppose. It can be a fun robot, and an infuriating one.

[TwentyOne]

You are right, nova is actually good IMO. It needs to be played hit and run, but its firepower is ridiculous. Srs I cant think if any clan mechs that are actually BAD compared to bad IS mechs.
They have OP cheat engines, better lasers and missiles than IS, and tiny heatsinks. Clan mechs literally cannot be bad compared to IS counterparts

[Soy]

Mcgral18, on 09 March 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Well, I've sat through half of your video, and have learnt nothing. All I see is a "L33t Montag3" of nitpicked shots. I'll struggle through it after writing this.


It also doesn't address the overwhelming downsides are part of the Nova. Terrible construction rules, some of the worst hitboxes in the game, and rather poor hardpoint placement.

Shall we make a quick Smurfy to discuss the construction rules?
Here we have the Nova:
TBT-NopeVa
Swap that to a 255 and gain a Kph for nothing.

Go to a 280XL with Endo and gain a ton of pod space, at the cost of 5 crit slots (engine DHS slot, save 2, Endo costs 7)
Nova-280


But wait! Change that to an XL300, drop a single JJ, and suddenly you've lost a half ton of pod space, while you're now moving at 107! That's with 4 JJs and it only cost you 2 crit slots, since you've saved 5 from 2 DHS (now in the 300 engine) and lost the CT JJ.
Nova-300


The Nova itself can pack some weapons. It can do well...as long as you're never seen. As soon as someone has seen you at 300M, you're royally screwed.
I have a love hate with the chassis...sometimes I take the 10-12 laser builds, do well, then get that one terribad match and get ganked at 400M without being able to touch them. Then I swap to the 6 ERML build, do well, then get that one terribad match and get the arm Penta Gaussed straight off. So I grab a 12 laser build, etc....

It's far too large, it could be designed far better, though at least it gets 10 TrueDubs.


There are worse robots out there, this one is salvageable, but it's got far too many downsides to be taken seriously. Those stem from mechlab restrictions and the physical attributes of the mech.

It's a good glass cannon, I suppose. It can be a fun robot, and an infuriating one.

- Cool, thanks for dropping in!

- Apparently you're a top Nova pilot, so I wouldn't expect you to learn anything at all. It's not supposed to be patronizing, it's supposed to be tongue-in-cheek by the way (especially the first part).

- The last half includes a part where I get my arms blown off and am reserved to acting like a complete moron. Cuz that's what happens when you play against great shots or try and take a bad position and force it.

- I tried to check your smurfy's but it wasn't working for some reason? One even gave a "502 bad gateway" or something. Am I doing something wrong?

- Yeah, being seen ruins everything. xD

- It could be designed smaller, but, what can we do about it now ya know? *looks at PGI*

- There are definitely worse robots out there. You say it can be salvagable; how so? You talkin quirks??? Reworking the scaling on Clan meds/hevs? Wat.

- Hell yeah it's the best glass cannon! Definitely feast or famine both in results and sometimes fun as well. xD

Thanks for actually critiquing.

Edited by Soy, 09 March 2015 - 04:06 PM.

[FupDup]

TwentyOne, on 09 March 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

You are right, nova is actually good IMO. It needs to be played hit and run, but its firepower is ridiculous. Srs I cant think if any clan mechs that are actually BAD compared to bad IS mechs.
They have OP cheat engines, better lasers and missiles than IS, and tiny heatsinks. Clan mechs literally cannot be bad compared to IS counterparts

Mist Lynx?