191 replies to this topic

[Jonny Slam]

I had almost a months break and have been back shooting for a few days, and it's abundantly clear that the game has slanted towards the clans too much. The clan mechs are more powerful, especially the mids and heavies, so naturally more pilots are now going clan. Which makes the pilot base population of the clans more powerful as well. Which unbalances CW with waves and waves of clanners.

Keep in mind that I'm not blaming the Clan pilots, it's fun to have the more powerful weapons and mechs, so why wouldn't you join the clans and fight with clan mechs? it's a game so your supposed to have fun. Makes sense, and I have no beef with clan pilots or their growing numbers.

Now that many players have the option to buy clan mechs with C-bills the slant is accelerating.

I suppose PGI must have known this was coming when they went 12 VS 12, instead of lances VS stars. Too bad really it's just made the balance untenable. I am aware of why Russ and the gang said they couldn't go stars, because of the cost of development and such. Yet because they shied away from making it happen they have crippled their own product. And the players game, shame really.

Those guys back in the old days of BT really knew what they were doing didn't they? It's exciting to introduce more powerful adversaries to the game universe, it stimulates growth and excellent game play. But they were even more wise to know that it had to be balanced by smaller numbers.

I suppose the reason the Quirks continue to fail is pretty simple, Clans get upset when a inner sphere mech or weapon is as powerful or more so then what they are using. They didn't sign up for that, and I tend to agree, they chose to be on the clan not the IS team. Then when Russ and Co. slant it back to the clans in power as was done recently it upsets the IS, because fighting EQUAL numbers of more powerful mechs is not what they signed up for.

Russ, you have to sort this out if you want this game to grow.

[Hillslam]

Silly you. The clan mechs aren't more powerful. They are neutered sacks of wet tissues piloted by heroes of unmatched skill and tactical genius. pfft

[Jonny Slam]

Hillslam, on 09 March 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

Silly you. The clan mechs aren't more powerful. They are neutered sacks of wet tissues piloted by heroes of unmatched skill and tactical genius. pfft

Uh mate? could you avoid trying to troll-derail this on the first page please?

Thanks.

[LordBraxton]

Jonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

Uh mate? could you avoid trying to troll-derail this on the first page please?

Thanks.

I think he was using sarcasm to agree with you

the holy trinity is impossible to beat, but to be fair, the rest of the clan mechs are like mid tier IS mechs

[Hospy]

He's preemptively giving the standard clan response for you.

[Jonny Slam]

Just felt it was more a preemptive poke at clan pilots, backhanded insult of clan pilot skills. Which would be silly because there are as many great clan pilots per-capita as there are IS pilots.

[Triordinant]

In the most basic terms, the Top 3 or 4 Inner Sphere 'mechs have to be the equal of the Top 3 or 4 Clan 'mechs. Otherwise, they should just go with the Lore and balance Clan technological superiority with IS numerical superiority. It's that simple.

[Leeroy Mechkins]

Current state of CW meta:

Clan has more active unit players, more experienced players, better mechs.

New players to CW daily complaining on forums because the imbalance is obvious.
While Clan players try to shout them down because they want to keep their superior status.

PGI should balance before Steam release if they want the game to be taken seriously like it deserves.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Jonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

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Hillslam, on 09 March 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

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Clans totally getting slammed in this thread.

[Triordinant]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 09 March 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

Current state of CW meta:

Clan has more active unit players, more experienced players, better mechs.

New players to CW daily complaining on forums because the imbalance is obvious.
While Clan players try to shout them down because they want to keep their superior status.

PGI should balance before Steam release if they want the game to be taken seriously like it deserves.

I feel bad for how much better it could have been. Details here.

[Jonny Slam]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

In the most basic terms, the Top 3 or 4 Inner Sphere 'mechs have to be the equal of the Top 3 or 4 Clan 'mechs. Otherwise, they should just go with the Lore and balance Clan technological superiority with IS numerical superiority. It's that simple.

Yet there is the problem with that: There is no IS numerical superiority, in matches or in pilot numbers. Players can choose which side to join (good thing), but in the face of the equal numbers (in matches) combined with the superior mech of the clan tech they will more often go clan. Without some balance this shift will just accelerate.

[Triordinant]

Jonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

Yet there is the problem with that: There is no IS numerical superiority, in matches or in pilot numbers. Players can choose which side to join (good thing), but in the face of the equal numbers (in matches) combined with the superior mech of the clan tech they will more often go clan. Without some balance this shift will just accelerate.

Numerical superiority will have to come through 10 vs 12 matches or some other ratio that gives IS more 'mechs in the fight.

[Jonny Slam]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 09 March 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

Current state of CW meta:

Clan has more active unit players, more experienced players, better mechs.

Which is all understandable in the current environment, and it will accelerate as more and more players go clan the allure of your first two points becomes stronger and stronger.

Yet when it hits the point in the not to far future that the only pilots playing IS are the ones who can't afford to go clan (in game with C-bills or real world with $), and the Battle Tech lore loyalist who refuse, and the occasional masochist, when that is all that is left fighting for the IS the matches will be horrible. Horrible enough to start to kill game growth.

Seriously the guys who designed the Clan invasion for Battle Tech were really switch on when it came to game theory and sustainable growth.

Edited by Jonny Slam, 09 March 2015 - 05:46 PM.

[luxebo]

The dumb thing is that it's not really the entire side of either spectrum (IS or Clans) but it's really just a few edge cases. For example go play the Mist Lynx trial. That thing is so bad I rather PGI implement a stock locust as a trial to replace it. Same as the Adder I received from the challenge (though it really isn't that terrible, just needs some help, and the Adder is reliant on a handful of builds, boating missiles like SRMs or boating lasers like MPL/LPL).

On the other hand Timber Wolves and Stormcrows and Hellbringers and Dire Wolves all just take over the ques. Simply put they have a ton of power, which is supposedly true, but it overruns every other clan or IS chassis in the game practically. The only equalizers on the IS side are possibly the Banshee or Stalker, along with the soon to be overrun Firestarter (which is reliant on A and S for wubs, but will be gone with the Arctic Cheetah). The Wolverine and Thunderbolt both were strong but now are limited, especially with the huge nerf to the 9S (gave it enough cooling for brawls, which was sorta too powerful but now I think it's weaker, as they nerfed again the velocity, supposedly 50% extra velocity, which would've retained a sniper role, but now is lackluster). Wolverine is not much of a powerhouse anymore due to the lack of wubverine. There were some lucky buffs though like the Hunchback and the Stalker 4N alone. In fact PGI nerfed the BJ-1DC and the Battlemasters.

There are two solutions to this issue: to nerf all the good mechs into oblivion, or to buff every other mech. PGI hasn't figured the right amount on either side... which effectively renders the balance to be ****.

So... in a nutshell:
Clan: Arctic Cheetah, Shadow Cat, Stormcrow, Cauldron Born, Hellbringer, Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf. Everything else is bad to terribad.
IS: Firestarter (which will be overthrown by Arctic Cheetah), Hunchback (mostly 4G or Grid Iron), Wolverine 6K (becoming worse overall slowly), Thunderbolt (9SE and 5SS, with 9S becoming worse overall), Stalker 4N, and Banshee. Once again everything else is bad to terribad.

So this results in:
Clan: Arctic Cheetah, Shadow Cat, Stormcrow, Cauldron Born, Hellbringer, Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf.
IS: Firestarter S/A, Hunchback 4G/GI, Thunderbolt 9SE/5SS, Stalker 4N, Banshee 3E.
See the difference here? Technically atm Arctic Cheetah, Shadow Cat, and Cauldron Born aren't here, so 4-5 mechs per faction running the same loadouts, with Firestarter becoming worse, it looks even worse. Perhaps even Hunchback and Thunderbolt, and maybe even Banshee (4N is really that strong), these may get worse with the Shadow Cat and Cauldron Born. The Cauldron has so much potential Hellbringer may be removed here. Plus ECM options in Shadow Cat/Cheeter might make Hellbringer weaker. In fact even Timber might be dethroned.

In the end this may happen:
Clan: Arctic Cheetah, Shadow Cat, Stormcrow, Cauldron Born, Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf.
IS: Stalker 4N.
Which is truly stupid. At least we know that Garg, Ice Ferret, Summoner, and Adder get quirks (leaving Nova and Mist Lynx in crappy state), and some IS quirks are coming. If they are good changes, I hope something awesome might happen, like if Awesome or Locust would suddenly be insanely strong. The italics are potentially doomed even too. I'm not kidding. The Dire Wolf might be rendered useless due to the speedy game of nowadays stuff. The Timber might be dethroned from the Cauldron. The Shadow Cat might be even subpar to the Cheeter. So... if PGI doesn't make their mind... ggclose?

At least in Solaris we may have an advantage in assaults. That's all we might have an advantage to, as Stalker/Banshee/DDC might be better than Dire Wolf there. We should've been able to have an advantage in lights, mediums, and heavies, but oh wait streaks and srms are ggclose with the Stormcrow, Timber, and Cauldron. Plus the Arctic Cheetah has much farther reaching lasers than any Firestarter.

Nevertheless we have a chance. Just a really slim one.

[Fate 6]

The only truly superior clan mechs for CW are the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf. The Hellbringer is also quite strong. Unfortunately, the Clans can bring 3/1 or 2/2 respectively of these mechs which means they drop in mass numbers with the best mechs in the game. I suspect that if Clan tonnage was dropped 10 tons instead of increasing IS tonnage (does nothing, our big mechs suck) we would see an interesting shift as taking a Timber Wolf would require the sacrifice of a Stormcrow and actually be a decision rather than an obvious choice for anyone not running Hellbringers.

[Jonny Slam]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Numerical superiority will have to come through 10 vs 12 matches or some other ratio that gives IS more 'mechs in the fight.

I for one just don't know if they can fix it at this point, much less want to. I fear the 10 vs 12 train has long left the station.

And let me be frank here, that choice has trapped PGI, as the past haphazard attempts to fix it with quirks have shown you can't stealth balance it without hurting large parts of the community who have signed up to a role. (clan or IS).

[Triordinant]

Jonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

I for one just don't know if they can fix it at this point, much less want to. I fear the 10 vs 12 train has long left the station.

And let me be frank here, that choice has trapped PGI, as the past haphazard attempts to fix it with quirks have shown you can't stealth balance it without hurting large parts of the community who have signed up to a role. (clan or IS).

That wasn't their first bad choice. Scuttlebutt says it was IGP's idea to introduce the Clans right away and in the way they did, but I can't really say. If they'd introduced the Clans any other way, including the suggestion here, they wouldn't be so trapped.

[luxebo]

Fate 6, on 09 March 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

The only truly superior clan mechs for CW are the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf. The Hellbringer is also quite strong. Unfortunately, the Clans can bring 3/1 or 2/2 respectively of these mechs which means they drop in mass numbers with the best mechs in the game. I suspect that if Clan tonnage was dropped 10 tons instead of increasing IS tonnage (does nothing, our big mechs suck) we would see an interesting shift as taking a Timber Wolf would require the sacrifice of a Stormcrow and actually be a decision rather than an obvious choice for anyone not running Hellbringers.

The thing is with the Cauldron, Shadow Cat, and Arctic Cheetah this isn't even a concern. Bring a Stormcrow to Shadow Cat or bring a Cauldron instead of Timber or dire wolf with shadow cat with mad dog/stormcrow with arctic cheetah.

[Burktross]

I'd like for PGI to test clan teams vs. is teams in solo queue again-- I'm curious if clanners really are getting the short end of the stick now.

[Johnny Z]

Clans OP, please nerf.