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Balance Of Sides In Too Uneven.


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#41 Impossible Wasabi

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 06:50 PM

The Space Pope has to admit, having bought some Clan mechs again (the Holy Trinity + Hellbringer), he really hasn't found much reason to use any of his IS mechs, apart from the lights.

Mediums: Doomcrow pretty much does everything at the highest level.
Heavies: Timberwolf wrecks absolute face and the Hellbringer is terribly underrated (hooray ECM)
Assault: Daishi is a wonderful mech with a couple of very powerful and supremely meta builds.

Sure, the Griffin 3M is still useful as an SRM boat and the Stalker-4N is a good large laser boat, but other than that, the Space Pope can't really think of an IS mech that barring pilot skill bests the glorious Clan mechs.

Once the Arctic Cheetah arrives, the Space Pope might just have to start selling off his IS mechs before they gather too much dust.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 09 March 2015 - 06:56 PM.


#42 Triordinant

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 06:51 PM

View PostSkyHammr, on 09 March 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:


But, if you're trying to sell both IS and Clan mechs... but, make Clans obviously, head and shoulders, better, who would buy the IS mechs?

Good point. Maybe they should have made it a Succession Wars type IS vs IS game with the Clans as PvE content later on.

#43 Jonny Slam

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 06:53 PM

View PostSkyHammr, on 09 March 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:


But, if you're trying to sell both IS and Clan mechs... but, make Clans obviously, head and shoulders, better, who would buy the IS mechs?


If we dropped in 10 vs 12 it would have many fans, but because we currently drop 12 vs 12 so more and more pilots are (rationally mind you) going over to the side that the game is currently slanted towards. Worse this will accelerate until the sides become so unbalanced on a macro level that the cw game isn't playable en mass.

View PostTriordinant, on 09 March 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

Good point. Maybe they should have made it a Succession Wars type IS vs IS game with the Clans as PvE content later on.


I don't know if they would have gotten the revenue and support to launch with that plan, people love the clan invasion. Clan pilots love it, IS pilots love it, for very different reasons but for no less enthusiasm. The pitching of two similar but markedly different opposing forces is what has kept the game going this long.

Edited by Jonny Slam, 09 March 2015 - 06:54 PM.


#44 Jonny Slam

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 06:57 PM

View PostThe True Space Pope, on 09 March 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

The Space Pope has to admit, having bought some Clan mechs again (the Holy Trinity), he really hasn't found much reason to use any of his IS mechs, apart from the lights.

Mediums: Doomcrow pretty much does everything at the highest level.
Heavies: Timberwolf wrecks absolute face and the Hellbringer is terribly underrated (hooray ECM)
Assault: Daishi is a wonderful mech with a couple of very powerful and supremely meta builds.

Once the Arctic Cheetah arrives, the Space Pope might just have to start selling off his IS mechs before they gather dust.


So true, I have account with my Clan mechs and they are tremendous fun, I logged onto them last night for a CW break and I felt like I was playing down on my ELO, which really is how a Clan mech should feel.

#45 Burktross

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 07:02 PM

View PostcSand, on 09 March 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

THE SOLUTION IS TO GROW A PAIR


FFS

Well, I expected learn 2 play, naturally. At least this was new.

#46 EgoSlayer

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 07:40 PM

View PostTriordinant, on 09 March 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Terran vs Zerg in Starcraft II? I believe it's quality vs quantity in that scenario and Starcraft II seems to be doing better than MWO. Just sayin'...


And you have one person with singular purpose controlling the zerglings. Not 12, each with different ideas and little if any communication with the other 11 outside of full 12-mans.
Just saying'...

Edited by EgoSlayer, 09 March 2015 - 07:40 PM.


#47 xxREVxx

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 07:47 PM

View PostJonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:



Mate? why are you attacking me? your acting like I am attacking you personally, take a moment and breath man, I'm not asking for them to nerf your mech, I'm asking for them to fix OUR GAME, your and mine before it gets so out of hand that it can't be stopped.

Attacking you? No.

#48 cSand

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 07:51 PM

View PostJonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:




Really don't get your point mate, not sure how insulting me says anything.

Do really you want to play the game where 85% of the pilots are on one side in more powerful units and the remaining 15% are newbies and die-hards playing in less powerful units having little to no chance?

And even if you join the Clans, how much fun is a ghost drop mate?

well I'm glad you're not insulted first off.


It's all in who's behind the wheel. This is really the ultimate point here.

So here's my explanation since my 1 sentence wonder failed to convince you (fair enough, :lol:):

Obligatory line: "I'm not saying there aren't changes to be made and many problems to be fixed".. cause there are, of course. But...

10v12 is not the answer anymore than the nerf-unnerf thing that is constantly going on. The lore-cores will complain it ain't canon but in this game, MWO, the goal is both sides are to be different but generally on a level field. Not saying that's perfected yet by any stretch, just that is what it happening in this game.

Enter the chronic whining (plagues most games not just this one). The cycle of whining begins generally by people who can't stand to lose / can't handle a challenge. (OT a little - I would blame that largely on 20 years of games (minus a handful) that spoon feed you ultimate power right from the start and when you lose you just start again where you died and away you go. No punishment for loss, no danger of actually ever losing.)
Anyways, so they lose a few matches, fail to adapt/learn from mistakes etc etc.. the next recourse is to complain in hopes that PGI (or insert company here) does what they ask for, to change the game around them rather than the difficult task of learning and adapting. Thus opening the door for the next wave of cry-hards to come in and demand changes cause those last changes took their crutches out from under em.

These may sound like the words of a ****, but it's the cold hard truth. 3 years of time MWO you see these patterns, over and over.

People post like there is some concrete solution (and of course it's the one they post, lol) to balance in a game that has 50+ chassis (x # of variants), however many different weapons we have (with more being added over time), and load of other factors that tie into this giant thing called "balance". It's a constant process and just like the game is not what it was this time last year, in another year things will be different again. This doesn't mean it should be ignored but it is not nearly as bad as the melodramatic hyperbole wielding crowd would have you think. Frankly, and I'm not trying to suck any d**ks here, but I think PGI of late has been at the very least putting in a decent effort to try to shift things around, and generally appease the unwashed masses while sticking with their guns on a few things (as they should).

Timberwolves, Direwolves, and whatever the 3rd layer is on the trinity cakemay be tough, but big deal?

Think of it as difficulty levels in some other games. Some people prefer playing their games on easy. Great. Grab a Timberwolf and go to town. It is definitely more forgiving of mistakes - (to a small extent, of course - a shite driver is still a shite driver). Ultimately though, IMO, the game is best enjoyed by getting a chassis that you love and working it until it doesn't matter any more what the balance is cause in that Nova (example) you are the effing master and not even BIlly-triple-gauss scares you anymore. You can deal, and all this talk of OP this OP that just kinda falls out the window cause you're confident enough that you can generally just put the hammer on anyone if you keep your head on right.
And that moment, sir, is when you will know that you have grown a pair.

Edited by cSand, 09 March 2015 - 08:03 PM.


#49 Eider

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 07:56 PM

Is did have a nice thunderbolt.. then there was enough tears from clanners to fill an ocean. So they changed it.. derp.

#50 Red1769

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 07:57 PM

Last official word was Clans won 64% (sixty something at least) of their matches (solo queue, pure matches and that was without quirks and a few other changes that have happened since then), with a very, very, very slight Elo advantage (argueably not enough to make a difference I think). Then it was that they won a lot more matches, but didn't get any details at all. Was it in Solo queue or CW? Mechs used? etc., which I think is desperately needed just for informative reasons, along with their analysis of why this is so.

Generally speaking, Clans have better lasers and SRMs, IS have better Ballistics (exception: gauss) and LRMs (yeah...lets not get into this one...especially since it's not saying much), PPCs are agrueable (Clan ERPPC is superior, but IS has access to a cooler version, either way, all three are in a bad spot imo). Their endo and ff armor take less crits, but are hardlocked and you can't switch out and trade, while IS's takes more space, but can be moved around to some extent (still need at least minor buffs imo...ff on both sides especially). Despite being hardlocked, engine advantage is solidly in Clan's advantage (five to 10% movement/speed penalty I think is in order for blowing up a side torso, and then see what happens). Double heat sinks also in the Clan's advantage, though between hardlocked equipment and higher heat lasers, is nullified pretty decently.

I'm not going to go into quirks until they're mostly settled on both sides, likewise on Chassis, since both have absolute terrible mechs (Clan lights until Arctic Cheetah, Awesome, yeah, we can go on) and solid mechs (Warhawk, Hellbringer, Direwolf, Stalker, King Crab, Griffin, Jagers), etc. Though with IS, that line has blurred with the quirks so I get confused.

View PostEgoSlayer, on 09 March 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:


And you have one person with singular purpose controlling the zerglings. Not 12, each with different ideas and little if any communication with the other 11 outside of full 12-mans.
Just saying'...


And this is one of the biggest problems with comparing to TT (where ONE person controls all 12/10 mechs) and advocating 10 v. 12, pretty much refer to Prosperity Park's earlier posts about that. Agreed, btw, but also agreed with Csand just above me. But the point is made, this is an FPS, where TT and Starcraft II is a Strategy Game. Apples and Oranges.

#51 Eider

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 07:57 PM

I will say this tho.. my crab eats daishi for lunch breakfast and dinner. Usually only falling to real focused firepower from multi mechs.. otherwise i just roll through anything.

#52 cSand

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 07:58 PM

View PostEgoSlayer, on 09 March 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:


And you have one person with singular purpose controlling the zerglings. Not 12, each with different ideas and little if any communication with the other 11 outside of full 12-mans.
Just saying'...


To add to your just sayin, it's also made by a company with:
- over 2 decades of experience making that one type of game (strategy)
- hundreds of staff
- essentially unlimited funds
- a serious-sized following of fans who could actually have the Blizzard CEO come to their house, and crap right on their dinner, and they'd still eat it

#53 Jonny Slam

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 08:44 PM

View PostcSand, on 09 March 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:



It's all in who's behind the wheel. This is really the ultimate point here.




No. It's not.

It's to bad then when someone brings this subject up Clan pilots feel threatened and usually fire back with "you suck you have no balls" or "It's the pilot not the mech" just as you did today.

This reductionist response reflects that they are afraid to lose the advantage being in a clan mech provides, or you might say what makes a clan mech a clan mech. But that's okay, the game was not set up for Clan mechs and IS mechs to be on par and "the game" I mean this game. If they were supposed to be par they would have the came out with the same weapons, weapons systems, XL engines, etc.... but they didn't because the clan tech is better, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Better tech smaller numbers, that is the basis of the Clan vs IS that PGI has presented since launch and before the clan had even arrived. They promoted it (correctly I might add) but never figured out the crucial "smaller numbers" factor and gave up. And because of that failure to manage 10vs12, PGI attempts to quirk, it is why they try to juggle drop weight. PGI knows Clan tech is superior because they designed to be before they gave up on 10vs12, and they know it because it was always the intention during the lead up to the invasion, and they knew it finally and most importantly because it is why clan mechs cost more, especially in real money. Pilots don't pay twice as much for a mech because they expect it to be "on par" with the IS mechs, we pay more because we are buying Clan mechs.

Once we all stop pretending that isn't the case and taking any acknowledgement of it as a attack on clan pilots we will all be better off.

More importantly, instead of the constant whining and lobbying to get this or that mech nerfed or buffed. We could urge in the most consistent and constructive way possible that PGI should instead apply those energies to getting us 10 vs 12 matches in CW.

They will have to do it soon, or before you know it we will all be Clanners and only have newbies and a handful of lore-nuts to fight in the IS.

Edited by Jonny Slam, 09 March 2015 - 08:53 PM.


#54 Ten Ton

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 08:56 PM

That was right on the money Jonny, well said. Nice job not taking the bait and getting into a flamer, hold steady dude.

#55 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 09:11 PM

View PostTriordinant, on 09 March 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Terran vs Zerg in Starcraft II? I believe it's quality vs quantity in that scenario and Starcraft II seems to be doing better than MWO. Just sayin'...

Um, no...

Zerg players do not get to operate a single unit. They get to operate a whole group of units.

Would you rather play as a single Terran, or a single Zerg? Sure, the Zerg gets a small numerical advantage, so you can Zerg along with weaker powers... or you can Play Harder with a better Unit, knowing you're outnumbered and expect to be fighting a more exciting and intense fight.

Sure, 12v10 lets you play from 2 perspectives: You can either play a single crappy Mech and gain solace in the fact that there's many crappy Mechs on your team, OR you can roll a BadAss Mech with just a few teammates and fight like a boss. Yeah, that makes both sides seem equally fun... pthpthpth :-p

Edited by Prosperity Park, 09 March 2015 - 09:12 PM.


#56 ApolloKaras

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 09:14 PM

The 10v12 thing is a pipe dream.

Think of things from a competitive perspective, there would be no way a comp 10 man would beat a comp 12 man of equal skill. It just won't happen. People really need to look to get off of this. The clans would absolutely be smoked on every level imaginable if this were the case. I say this as someone who has played BOTH sides. Both sides have an advantage, and both should maximize the advantage. IS has impressive pinpoint damage and very fast lights, Clans have the XL, 2 crit double heat sinks. In the case of the Timberwolf/Crow Endo/Ferro being 7 slots each. The clans cannot do the pin point damage the IS boys can, laser burn times are longer and hotter. Although I would propose that the ER Medium is the best weapon in the game right now for the tonnage.

Talk to NKVA, ARKB, NS, 228 (I'm sure there are other IS units that are doing well, these are the only ones that I've had experience with recently), and they are tough to beat. We lose some we win some. There are been some AMAZING matches that I've been in, and never at any point were we so OP we just rolled. It's teammwork that's Key. The IS doesn't have to work any harder than the clans do.

#57 Felicitatem Parco

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 09:16 PM

Having been around since longer than most, and being the first person on the forums outside of PGI to learn when the original Friends and Family Beta started, I can tell you what the original plans were for Clan Mechs. They were supposed to be worse than Inner Sphere Mechs when piloted by new and/or mediocre-skilled players. They'd be on par with the IS when a "decent" player got into one. Highly-skilled players, on the other hand, were supposed to be capable of overcoming the Clan Tech's inherent weaknesses (i.e. adjust to the extreme learning curve) to take advantage of the Clans' strong points. ONLY THEN was an individual Clan Mech supposed to be better than an average IS Mech.

This plan fell apart, however, when they decided to make the Timberwolf stronger than most all Inner Sphere Mechs when piloted by a new, average, or moderate pilot. Lore trumped balance. <_<

Edited by Prosperity Park, 09 March 2015 - 09:19 PM.


#58 cSand

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 09:18 PM

View PostJonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:


snipped



I own 4 clan mechs: pre-ordered the Stormcrow cause of the brofists the prime had, and mastered the Summoners but only kept 1.

Currently 118 matches between all of them.

So now that's out of the way

Listen:

People been singing and dancing, like yourself, about some mass exodus to the clans since they came out. I mean, we're still waiting for it to happen after almost a year. But yea.

Oh and hey, what happens to the group and solo queues once you implement 10 v 12 for CW? Those are the places in the game where most of the people play, by the way. Especially new players.

That's right. Mass exodus to all powerful clan mechs.

I would love to see where PGI stated "better tech, smaller numbers".

Actually I wouldn't, cause none of this matters. The 10 v 12 boat sailed long ago and it's not coming back.

Don't worry I'll put a few big bad clannies in the grave for you while I'm out there ;)

Edited by cSand, 09 March 2015 - 09:34 PM.


#59 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 09:21 PM

I dunno, but what I'd like to try is tweak the Heat System some.

Lower the Heat Cap universally and then consider raising Dissipation some after (at least giving us true external DHS for example) if we keep a higher Heat Cap.

Fitting to current weapon values, I'd start with an override-able shutdown at 44 heat, and we can take the existing internals damage to be applied when we do override up to a max cap of 60 heat, which would automatically Shut down our mechs.

And then see how that influences balance, so that follow up tweaks can be made to weapons as necessary.




And I could live with lowering Capacity to the original Heat Table (but at a doubled value), which is 28 Heat on the first override-able Shutdown. Then we have the Automatic Shutdown at 44 Max Heat.

This would be paired with having Dissipation increased to match our current rate of fire, so that we would then have dynamic capacity through dissipation over time. And remember that this would go along with quirks and weapon stats should also see some tweaks here and there after setting such values for the Heat System.

#60 Soy

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 09:35 PM

Yeah it should be 12v10, in an ideal world. Where the imbalance is incentivized. People like Prop Park talkin about it in a vacuum are playing a dangerous game of ignorance - you can do stuff like say, give IS twice as much Cbills, or give them a better way to interact with territory on a more efficient logistical manner in a truly fleshed out CW.

In other words, no excuses after the fact and reality of what we have in the game right now.

Quirks, w/e. 12v12v10, w/e. No excuses.



Real human beans. No excuses.

Edited by Soy, 09 March 2015 - 09:36 PM.






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