191 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

The issue with Clan balance is that some things are too good and some things/mechs just outright suck. It's pretty bipolar and very few things are in a "sweet spot" in terms of balancing the Clams.

[Triordinant]

FupDup, on 09 March 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

The issue with Clan balance is that some things are too good and some things/mechs just outright suck. It's pretty bipolar and very few things are in a "sweet spot" in terms of balancing the Clams.

Only the top 3 or 4 Clan 'mechs and the top 3 or 4 IS 'mechs really matter. Balance those 'mechs against each other and that will do for now when it comes to Clan/IS balance.

[SkyHammyr]

The two reasons Clan Mechs appear to be unbalanced are:
1. No Warhammer
2. No Marauder

Let's face it. What IS Heavy Mech in the 70-75 ton range is even worth a spit? Orion? Cataphract? I don't even think the Grasshopper (as cute as it may be) would be a good fit. Viable IS Heavies are 65 tons or lighter... When competing against the Timberwolf, you're immediately gimped 10 tons out of the gate! The Timberwolf is superior in weight alone in this case.

Give the IS a quality 75 tonner that has good cockpit or higher weapon mounts, a nicely distributed hit box arrangement and doesn't look like it fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. Then, you'll have a solid contender against Clan mechs.

Edited by SkyHammr, 09 March 2015 - 06:16 PM.

[Mawai]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Numerical superiority will have to come through 10 vs 12 matches or some other ratio that gives IS more 'mechs in the fight.

In CW they have started to do it by tonnage. IS now gets 250 tons to clan 240 tons in their drop decks. I don't think that 10 tons will make much difference against the holy trinity but it does show that they are aware that CW is not balanced in clan vs IS matches and that in general those matches favour the clans.

(Of course, from a lore perspective in TT and BattleTech, the clans are supposed to utterly trash the IS and far outstrip them in terms of technology. Lances vs stars is not even close to enough balance for un-neutered clan tech ... but MWO is neither TT nor BattleTech and to make the game playable in the PUG queues they have to make clan mechs roughly equal to IS mechs to make playing IS worthwhile).

[xxREVxx]

Jonny Slam, on 09 March 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

I had almost a months break and have been back shooting for a few days, and it's abundantly clear that the game has slanted towards the clans too much. The clan mechs are more powerful, especially the mids and heavies, so naturally more pilots are now going clan. Which makes the pilot base population of the clans more powerful as well. Which unbalances CW with waves and waves of clanners.

Keep in mind that I'm not blaming the Clan pilots, it's fun to have the more powerful weapons and mechs, so why wouldn't you join the clans and fight with clan mechs? it's a game so your supposed to have fun. Makes sense, and I have no beef with clan pilots or their growing numbers.

Now that many players have the option to buy clan mechs with C-bills the slant is accelerating.

I suppose PGI must have known this was coming when they went 12 VS 12, instead of lances VS stars. Too bad really it's just made the balance untenable. I am aware of why Russ and the gang said they couldn't go stars, because of the cost of development and such. Yet because they shied away from making it happen they have crippled their own product. And the players game, shame really.

Those guys back in the old days of BT really knew what they were doing didn't they? It's exciting to introduce more powerful adversaries to the game universe, it stimulates growth and excellent game play. But they were even more wise to know that it had to be balanced by smaller numbers.

I suppose the reason the Quirks continue to fail is pretty simple, Clans get upset when a inner sphere mech or weapon is as powerful or more so then what they are using. They didn't sign up for that, and I tend to agree, they chose to be on the clan not the IS team. Then when Russ and Co. slant it back to the clans in power as was done recently it upsets the IS, because fighting EQUAL numbers of more powerful mechs is not what they signed up for.

Russ, you have to sort this out if you want this game to grow.

Seriously? Did you type all of that with a straight face? Also, I just have to ask. Do the IS factions get together and agree upon what things they're going cry OP over? Our mechs are absolute junk, paid for junk.
Oh, and the Russ sort something out was a nice touch. It made me laugh.

[Simbacca]

In solo queue I have no issues. The balancing mechanism of mixed IS and Clan mechs for both teams, and just as important weight class restrictions have kept solo queue balanced; unlike CW.

And of course this assumes that MM does not assign horrible team mates....

Edited by Simbacca, 09 March 2015 - 06:26 PM.

[Jonny Slam]

I think the whole give IS this or that is just another symptom like the Quirks were, a attempt to fix a root problem with a after lash-up and it wont work.

Let me repeat this, there is NOTHING wrong with clan tech being better, that is how it is supposed to be. The problem is that this can't happen with out the Balancing factor of 10 vs 12.

What is worse is that all the attempts to nerf, buff, or quirk our way to a working model is killing the experience as well. A pilot needs to know that a weapon system works a certain way at a certain range across the board for each Tech home (Clan or IS) Clearly PGI knew this at first because the weapons of each side are produced in different visual ways so that the cue's of "oh that's a Clan medium firing over there" would allow a pilot to make the best choices.

But with quirks it just muddys the water even more, and take that crucial pilot skill of situational awareness and weapon knowledge away and it hurts the game.

Not to mention if you have a solid bench mark on weapons it would kill half the hurt feelings and nerf/buff lobbying in the community.

[Jonny Slam]

Reverend Poison, on 09 March 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

Seriously? Did you type all of that with a straight face? Also, I just have to ask. Do the IS factions get together and agree upon what things they're going cry OP over? Our mechs are absolute junk, paid for junk.
Oh, and the Russ sort something out was a nice touch. It made me laugh.

Mate? why are you attacking me? your acting like I am attacking you personally, take a moment and breath man, I'm not asking for them to nerf your mech, I'm asking for them to fix OUR GAME, your and mine before it gets so out of hand that it can't be stopped.

[cSand]

LordBraxton, on 09 March 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

the holy trinity is impossible to beat

ohhhhh these threads


bring out the best of MWO, for sure



OK ok
seriously now, OP there is a solution but you're not gonna like it. It rhymes with "mow a bear"

Edited by cSand, 09 March 2015 - 06:32 PM.

[Jonny Slam]

Mawai, on 09 March 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

In CW they have started to do it by tonnage. IS now gets 250 tons to clan 240 tons in their drop decks. I don't think that 10 tons will make much difference against the holy trinity but it does show that they are aware that CW is not balanced in clan vs IS matches and that in general those matches favour the clans.

(Of course, from a lore perspective in TT and BattleTech, the clans are supposed to utterly trash the IS and far outstrip them in terms of technology. Lances vs stars is not even close to enough balance for un-neutered clan tech ... but MWO is neither TT nor BattleTech and to make the game playable in the PUG queues they have to make clan mechs roughly equal to IS mechs to make playing IS worthwhile).

Well I think the important thing to point out here is that it's not really about tonnage is it? The greater number of mechs and pilots one side has over the other is a real tactical advantage, tonnage is secondary. The ability to have those greater number of units attacking is benefit in matches and on the strategic scale of CW. That's why the pilot shift towards clan is beginning to accelerate the problem as well.

cSand, on 09 March 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

ohhhhh these threads


bring out the best of MWO, for sure



OK ok
seriously now, OP there is a solution but you're not gonna like it. It rhymes with "mow a bear"

Could you explain, not seeing it.

[cSand]

THE SOLUTION IS TO GROW A PAIR


FFS

[Felicitatem Parco]

The biggest source of this problem is BattleTech fans. They expect Clans to be better. Not "separate but equal," but better. This game will never be balanced as long as people want Clans to be better.

[Triordinant]

Mawai, on 09 March 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

In CW they have started to do it by tonnage. IS now gets 250 tons to clan 240 tons in their drop decks. I don't think that 10 tons will make much difference against the holy trinity but it does show that they are aware that CW is not balanced in clan vs IS matches and that in general those matches favour the clans.

(Of course, from a lore perspective in TT and BattleTech, the clans are supposed to utterly trash the IS and far outstrip them in terms of technology. Lances vs stars is not even close to enough balance for un-neutered clan tech ... but MWO is neither TT nor BattleTech and to make the game playable in the PUG queues they have to make clan mechs roughly equal to IS mechs to make playing IS worthwhile).

LOL, if they stuck to Lore it would be 1 Clan Star vs 1 IS Company. I mentioned something about this at least 4 months ago.

[Jonny Slam]

cSand, on 09 March 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

THE SOLUTION IS TO GROW A PAIR


FFS

Really don't get your point mate, not sure how insulting me says anything.

Do really you want to play the game where 85% of the pilots are on one side in more powerful units and the remaining 15% are newbies and die-hards playing in less powerful units having little to no chance?

And even if you join the Clans, how much fun is a ghost drop mate?

Edited by Jonny Slam, 09 March 2015 - 06:42 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

To elaborate, 10v12 is not balance, it's proof of imbalance. It just says "You can either play crappy IS Mechs, or good Clan Mechs.". That is not how you market both factions in a PvP game.

[Triordinant]

Prosperity Park, on 09 March 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

The biggest source of this problem is BattleTech fans. They expect Clans to be better. Not "separate but equal," but better. This game will never be balanced as long as people want Clans to be better.

They could have made the Clans much better, just like in Lore. BUT they would be much fewer. 1 Clan Star vs 1 IS Company, aka 5 vs 12.

[Jonny Slam]

Prosperity Park, on 09 March 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

The biggest source of this problem is BattleTech fans. They expect Clans to be better. Not "separate but equal," but better. This game will never be balanced as long as people want Clans to be better.

No, not really. I'm not just a BattleTech fan myself, first and foremost I'm a game theory fan. And having two sides with different strengths and weakness makes for a better game.

Better tech smaller numbers, less tech more numbers, that was and still is a excellent game design choice.

[SkyHammyr]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

They could have made the Clans much better, just like in Lore. BUT they would be much fewer. 1 Clan Star vs 1 IS Company, aka 5 vs 12.

But, if you're trying to sell both IS and Clan mechs... but, make Clans obviously, head and shoulders, better, who would buy the IS mechs?

[Jonny Slam]

Prosperity Park, on 09 March 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

To elaborate, 10v12 is not balance, it's proof of imbalance. It just says "You can either play crappy IS Mechs, or good Clan Mechs.". That is not how you market both factions in a PvP game.

No. It's a feature of different sides with different strengths and weaknesses. And actually it's a excellent way to market any game, not just a PvP game.

[Triordinant]

Prosperity Park, on 09 March 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

To elaborate, 10v12 is not balance, it's proof of imbalance. It just says "You can either play crappy IS Mechs, or good Clan Mechs.". That is not how you market both factions in a PvP game.

Terran vs Zerg in Starcraft II? I believe it's quality vs quantity in that scenario and Starcraft II seems to be doing better than MWO. Just sayin'...