236 replies to this topic

[Aiden Skye]

Timberwolf is fine. Just fix bunny hopping.

[LordLosh]

we are back to beating this dead horse huh? its the best heavy mech for sure. you nerf it anymore then they already did and a new mech will take its place. I agree with WarKhan fix the bunny hopping and this mech is perfectly fine were it is. Its too damn sexy and iconic not to be the best imo

Edited by LordLosh, 12 March 2015 - 02:00 PM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Kicking myself that I didn't buy this with my clan package.....I have the C-Bill variant. Cheat mode....

[Sjorpha]

That Dawg, on 12 March 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

Question: IF the timberthing were "all that".............how come...........I only see 2-4 per battle? (sometimes...NONE)
I mean surely, if they were a win button, all the IS lads would sell all their mechs, all their IS gear and get one timberwolf, then with all the money they'd make, buy all that stuff back, but still only run the timber...ammirite?

If you see 2-4 per battle then that is actually 25-50% of the heavy mechs in each battle, which is insanely much actually.

Given that there are 11 heavies in the game, you'd expect to see an average of less than 1 per battle if the mechs were balanced.

Also, balance and overpowered elements of games has never been about "win buttons", that's a total strawman same as "they can be killed" and other nonsensical apologetic babble. All that is required for a balance issue is that a given piece of the game increases the average chance to win by a disproportionate amount as compared to other pieces designed to fill the same niche.

It is also not an issue of whether there is "always a best mech", which is of course true but another strawman. The issue is how large the power gaps between comparable mechs or between factions are, if it is small enough there is no problem, if it is too large there is.

Currently the gap is too large both between the best mechs of both factions, and between the best and worst mechs within each faction.

The game is balanced when picking mechs from a perspective of trying to win is always a difficult choice with as many good answers as possible.

Perfect balance is of course neither possible nor necessary, not even mirrored games like chess and tic tac toe are anywhere near perfectly balanced.

Edited by Sjorpha, 12 March 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[Lightfoot]

MWO's Orion just sucks that's all. 75 ton Heavies reside in the sweet spot between Heavies and Assault mechs. The Orion should be closer in in strength to the Mad Cat, but MWO has twisted the balancing of the weapons to favor massive medium laser arrays like the TDR-5SS and remove the Gauss Rifle and LRMs.

You should be asking when is PGI going to un-nerf long range weapons like Artemis LRMs, Gauss Rifles, and PPCs as these are the best weapons to counter Clan tech. I'll tell you one thing, it isn't Inner Sphere lasers which is what PGI has given the Inner Sphere to fight the Clan mechs with. Ha ha ha, Inner Sphere Medium Lasers vs a Mad Cat, that's a good one!

Seriously, it's not the mech, it's what Inner Sphere has been left with to fight it, by goofy nerfs to LRMs, PPCs, and Gauss Rifles. Those weapons all the noobs whine about being OP. They kill Mad Cats quick and neat.... when they work as in Battle Tech. The Orion carries them all.

[Nasinil]

Well my opinion on the Timberwolf...
Its a good and reliable mech and is really very powerful, if used correctly this mech rocks. but its far away from Timbergod. I killed enough of em and i was killed often enough in it. It has a high dmg output yeah and it comes at the cost of overheat.

Reliable but also pretty vulnerable mech. I almost always loose a side torso with it.

My peak dmg in one round was around 1100 and i got around 900 twice, but mostly im at the 300-600 range since the mech gets alot of attention on the field. Thats around the same i could get with good Thunderbolt setup, wich is less impressive than i would expect from a 4xArtemis SRM6 and 6CLERmeds. I still got alot of great moments in this mech, pretty much fun but not my favorite grindmech.

Edited by Nasinil, 12 March 2015 - 05:10 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Nasinil, on 12 March 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

Well my opinion on the Timberwolf...
Its a good and reliable mech and is really very powerful, if used correctly this mech rocks. but its far away from Timbergod. I killed enough of em and i was killed often enough in it. It has a high dmg output yeah and it comes at the cost of overheat.

Reliable but also pretty vulnerable mech. I almost always loose a side torso with it.

My peak dmg in one round was around 1100 and i got around 900 twice, but mostly im at the 300-600 range since the mech gets alot of attention on the field. Thats around the same i could get with good Thunderbolt setup, wich is less impressive than i would expect from a 4xArtemis SRM6 and 6CLERmeds. I still got alot of great moments in this mech, pretty much fun but not my favorite grindmech.

Thank you, i feel the same way, i hate that the TimberWolf is seen as Easy mode,
and if its not your playing it wrong,... um what? im sorry i dont play Meta Builds,
i play builds i like and enjoy, builds where i can support my team,

for all those who want to know my TimberWolf-C has,
1CT C-ER-LL
4 C-ER-SL 2-per-arm,
4LRM 15(1260Ammo) 2-per-Side-Torso,
1CAP,
i love my Support Timber,

have 15-25Fps,
get 500+ damage per match,
1 kill if im lucky per match(i dont and wont Kill steal)
8-10 Assists if im on the winning team,

[Nori Silverrage]

Ya know, if they fixed the stupid JJ glitch (hack) than maybe Timbers wouldn't seem so powerful. I play Timbers but I have ethics and do not abuse the JJ glitch (Battlefield had the same issue). And without that glitch they seem to die just fine to me.

[Lightfoot]

I don't think the Timberwolf is over powered. It's just good and Inner Sphere has had their best competing weapons nerfed too much to force MWO into a brawler game. Lasers work best at shorter range but IS Lasers will never beat Clan Lasers. The weapons that compete best vs Clan tech are Gauss Rifles, PPCs, and you can add some LRMs or Medium IS lasers to that and this works.

When I pilot a Mad Cat it just feels like a 75 ton mech. Almost an Assault, but more fragile and faster. It's not my favorite mech, I think it is too easy to hit and lose half it's weapons easily. So it's good, but just barely. The Mad Cat is the most popular mech in all MechWarrior games and this is due to it's fame.

[Sjorpha]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 March 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

...and if its not your playing it wrong,... um what? im sorry i dont play Meta Builds,
i play builds i like and enjoy, builds where i can support my team.

Suboptimal builds and strategies are not so much "wrong" as they are irrelevant to the discussion about balance.

There's nothing "wrong" about playing chess with the primary ambition of creating a beautiful pattern with the pieces, or to create a certain category of strategic situations you find interesting, but those are not the strategies we measure the strength of when studying the game.

If you are not trying to optimise your play for winning, then there is of course basically no balance concerns to be had ever outside of completely broken things.

[That Dawg]

Sjorpha, on 12 March 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

If you see 2-4 per battle then that is actually 25-50% of the heavy mechs in each battle,

no, as in total on both teams.
sometimes one or two- on both teams.

IF it were truly the win button, all we'd see were timbers was my point.

everyone would complain until everyone owned one

[Metus regem]

That Dawg, on 24 March 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

no, as in total on both teams.
sometimes one or two- on both teams.

IF it were truly the win button, all we'd see were timbers was my point.

everyone would complain until everyone owned one

And then they would complain some more, that they got beat by it...

[Lightfoot]

Mad Cat is MechWarrior, that's all. It was everyone's favorite mech before it arrived in MWO. It works and so many Clan mechs like the Thor do not because PGI did not understand that when you lock Clan Mechlab you force Clan mechs into a quasi-Stock Mechs game and in Stock players only take one or two mechs.

Like in Clan Wave III I can tell you now that the Shadow Cat and Cauldron Born will be great and the Gladiator will be a giant MWO Summoner.

The problem for most Inner Sphere mechs is that the weapons they can all carry that kill Mad Cats and Clan mechs with ease, Gauss Rifles, PPCs, and LRMs, have been nerfed due to new players not being able to handle the competition level they allow. That leaves you medium and large lasers mostly and the Clan will own Inner Sphere on laser tech until 3058.

The Mad Cat is fine though, it's what all 75 ton mechs should be. MWO just has all the Inner Sphere Heavy mech weapons nerfed so bug them to un-nerf Gauss Rifles instead for starters.

[That Dawg]

Metus regem, on 24 March 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

And then they would complain some more, that they got beat by it...

I know!! How about MECHCAR, or NASMECH? The only thing allowed in drops are Timberwolves, any variation, any combo, but if you dont have a TBR in front of the designation, you can't play!


edit: crap...that might actually be pretty interesting...24 spiders? 24 Direwhales? 24 splatcats?
probably not enough player base...12 lights on each side? 12 mediums on each side?

[Yokaiko]

Lightfoot, on 12 March 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

I don't think the Timberwolf is over powered. It's just good and Inner Sphere has had their best competing weapons nerfed too much to force MWO into a brawler game. Lasers work best at shorter range but IS Lasers will never beat Clan Lasers.

Untill you need to fire longer.

Its not even a contest between a Thud or Grasshopper with a ton of pulse lasers and a Timber or Hellbringer.

[Evan20k]

Food for thought; can anyone come up with a compelling argument why it's balanced that isn't "Oh I kill them all the time" or some silly variation of "There will always be a best mech"? The problem isn't that this is the best mech, the problem is just how far out in front of the nearest contenders it is.

[Yokaiko]

Evan20k, on 24 March 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Food for thought; can anyone come up with a compelling argument why it's balanced that isn't "Oh I kill them all the time" or some silly variation of "There will always be a best mech"? The problem isn't that this is the best mech, the problem is just how far out in front of the nearest contenders it is.

Distinct lack of data?

What are the crippling issues with its contenders or is it another "because reasons" thing.

..and yes I know Orion sucks. Main reason I don't own any,

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 24 March 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Untill you need to fire longer.

Its not even a contest between a Thud or Grasshopper with a ton of pulse lasers and a Timber or Hellbringer.

the flip side of that script being that Clan Pulse lasers have 33% (double in lore) the range of IS, and do 2 damage more on the Medium and Large. Thus 4 C-MPL do the same damage as 5 IS-MPL. But are indeed hotter.

But it demonstrates the biggest issue I find with most balance arguments, as people pick and choose a single set of attributes to hang the hat on for why one is better than the other.

IS-MPL: 6 dmg/ 4 heat / 220(440) range / 0.60 duration (1.67/1.11 DPS to HPS ratio)
C-MPL: 8 dmg/ 6 heat / 330(660) range / 0.85 duration (2.08/1.56 DPS to HPS ratio)

Fact, C-MPL has superior range and damage. IS-MPL has better heat and duration. Thus, at brawling, especially quirked, the IS is a better choice. At range, where most CW matches occur? The C-Pulse tends to win.

[Evan20k]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

the flip side of that script being that Clan Pulse lasers have 33% (double in lore) the range of IS, and do 2 damage more on the Medium and Large. Thus 4 C-MPL do the same damage as 5 IS-MPL. But are indeed hotter.

But it demonstrates the biggest issue I find with most balance arguments, as people pick and choose a single set of attributes to hang the hat on for why one is better than the other.

IS-MPL: 6 dmg/ 4 heat / 220(440) range / 0.60 duration (1.67/1.11 DPS to HPS ratio)
C-MPL: 8 dmg/ 6 heat / 330(660) range / 0.85 duration (2.08/1.56 DPS to HPS ratio)

Fact, C-MPL has superior range and damage. IS-MPL has better heat and duration. Thus, at brawling, especially quirked, the IS is a better choice. At range, where most CW matches occur? The C-Pulse tends to win.

My mental math may be bad, but if I'm looking at that right, CMPL actually deals more damage in the .6 duration of the IS MPL almost immediately after leaving 240m of range.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

Fact, C-MPL has superior range and damage. IS-MPL has better heat and duration. Thus, at brawling, especially quirked, the IS is a better choice. At range, where most CW matches occur? The C-Pulse tends to win.

My IS drop deck is literally three mechs with 270m optimals right now, most matches are VERY close in CW, you need one mech with so range for the initial poke a thon, but damn near all of the actual work happens at sneezing distances (I haven't played the new map, maybe its different).

Like seriously if people actually try to stay at 900m, its no wonder they can't win a CW game, they are doing it flat wrong.