236 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Ozealot, on 10 March 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Why?

The Timber Wolf is, as others have stated, a perfect storm of ideal or near-ideal characteristics with no real weak points to pick at, unlike the lopsided over-quirked Spheroid machines which are ostensibly meant to deal with it. It benefits from all available Clan weight-saving upgrades which maximizes its pod space, it sits in a tonnage sweet spot where mobility/armor ratios are concerned, and moreover it sinks a great deal of weight into a 375XL engine which offers it an excellent mobility profile. The further addition of the S-variant’s jump jets are just unnecessary icing on the cake. Whatever your ‘Mech can do, the Timber Wolf can generally do it to, which makes it unpredictable as well as versatile. You can’t spot a Timber Wolf and know for an absolute fact what it’s bringing, like you can with the Glorious New Era ™ of hilariously, depressingly over-quirked Spheroid machines, and frankly? Whatever any given TBR picks to do, it’ll be better at it than you are.

The answer most players seem to come to, though, is to make it move like a post-Nerfinator VTR, hit it with a set of speed/agility negaquirks that would, essentially, rob it of any value it derives from having that bigass 375XL installed in it. The Timber Wolf sacrifices pod space for that engine in return for exceptional movement capabilities for its weight class; what most players seem to espouse is removing the benefits of that engine and making the Timber Wolf move more as if it had a 300XL or a 325XL in it rather than a 375XL, a’la 20% or greater reductions in turn/twist/accel speed and shaving ten-odd klicks off its top speed, which are ostensibly regained via Speed Tweak but not really.

This would give the Timber Wolf the definite weakness players are eager to see it have –in this case, moving like an ordinary assault ‘Mech rather than an up-engined heavy ‘Mech – and the fact that this reinforces the awful, awful things that have been done to the Victor, Highlander, Gargoyle, and almost certainly the Executioner doesn’t seem to bother these folks at all. The general consensus seems to be that things which are big are not allowed to also be fast, no matter what sacrifices they may have otherwise made to be there.

If you’re over 70 tons, you’re going to either be denied the ability to up-engine enough to move well in the first place (at which point you get to compensate by bringing extra armor/guns), or you get to be smacked with vicious negaquirks that inflict severe penalties on your movement profile, which require you to up-engine to the max simply to keep up with the ‘Mechs who take five or ten less tons of engine and thus get five or ten tons more gun than you do. As we’ve seen with the Gargoyle and its ludicrously unnecessary ‘Huge’ movement profile, this has the effect of essentially removing you from the game completely.

My oft-repeated forlorn calls to investigate other means by which the Timber Wolf might be brought to heel have been universally scorned by the player base, who have decided that the VTR Giganerf is the appropriate response to anything over 70 tons with an engine rating higher than 300.

I may – just may, mind – be a little bit bitter over that.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Metus regem, on 10 March 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

More or less what I feel she needs too, I would also slow down the turning speed a bit, she can corner a little too well... mind you this is how I see it after having them at elite.

It's got a 375XL, pack that in an Orion and it turns the same.

[Zoid]

Well...before the last tournament ruined my KDR (since I was being nice and trying to only take one kill if the win was assured), I had over a 5.0 KDR with them, compared to 2.0 with everything else.

You can easily pack a 50-60 points alpha from a little less than 500m. Human reaction time is usually about .2 to .4 seconds, so those lasers are going to deal most of their damage before the enemy moves. If you can manage to stay healthy (which isn't hard) until later in the game when everyone has taken a good bit of CT damage, you can literally just walk around dropping alpha strikes and watching the kills roll in.

[XX Sulla XX]

Hopefully they will use the Grasshopper to balance it out.

[luxebo]

Rouken, on 10 March 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

The Timber Wolf is a fantastic mech. Outside of attempting to break it, there is not much you can do to it. There is always going to be a mech like this, too. Before it was the Victor enjoying a similar level of dominance.

The problem, in my opinion, is that IS lacks a really solid heavy. The 7 MPL Thunderbolt can challenge it at close range but otherwise there is not much competition. I think they need to reevaluate the CTF-3D. It recieved quirks based on its position as king of poptarts in the heavy weight class, but since that tactic has fallen from favor it could do with some love. Of all the IS heavies, I think it has the best chance of being elevated to a position to challenge the clan heavies. Redoing the quirks on the Grasshopper would also be a good way to go. I don't think it got anything that will make it an interesting choice.

IS mediums have a similar issue, I think. Sparky would be my first choice, but elevating a hero mech would not be popular. SHD-2K or HBK-4P would be good bets. I don't believe the 2K got much. I'm not sure what the 4P got, but I haven't seen an over abundance of them.

100% agreed here, we need a better medium and heavy, most likely a light too with Arctic Cheetah coming. Even buffing up the Victor/Highlander again might do something. At this point the only equal trade blow for blow is the assault class, as Dire Wolves are just about as equal as Stalker/Kgc/Banshee/maybe AS7 in qualities.

[Rhaythe]

Brody319, on 10 March 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

I'd prefer if they just buff other mechs and not nerf the timberwolf.

I'd rather not see the TTK number fall any further, personally.

[1453 R]

You misunderstand, Oz. I'm not bitter about being inappropriately touched by Timber Wolves, I'm bitter about the fact that no one will bother to consider for five consecutive seconds any Timberfix that is not "MAKE IT MOVE LIKE A BANSHEE!"

Banshees get to bring thirty-odd tons of weaponry and up near twenty tons of armor to compensate for the fact that they move like Banshees. What, exactly, does the Timber Wolf get in return when its 375-rated engine somehow offers less performance than a 300-rated engine? I understand that it needs to be reined in some, but reins are supposed to be for guiding your ride to the proper path, not snapping its neck in a fit of rage, eh?

[Red1769]

Ozealot, on 10 March 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

Well I get what this is actually about and all. Timber Wolf is a good Mech, can pack a punch, can mount JJs. But why do you want a nerf? Look at the Victor, the Highlander, the K2 and so on... when PGI decides because of the forum rants that something will be done they won't revert it. Look at these examples. Do you really want that? I don't. You know I killed them Clan Mechs for about half a year 'til I decided to buy the Clan Waves. Pre nerf Clan Mechs. You might remember? And I don't have them bad memories as some other peoples seem to have. And now some want to nerfbat the Timber? No way.

The ONLY real reason that you are destroyed so often by Timber Wolves is that they are so iconic and thus so often used that you simply encounter them most often among the Clan Mechs. This and that META trend talk and threads like this one which suggest using a Timber if you are a moron who can't accomplish something with another Mech in this game. My KDR with a Mist Lynx is higher than the KDR with a Timber Wolf, just for the record. Nobody wants the Lynx nerfed.

Look at how many want the Victor and Highlander restored, somewhat at least. Or at least their jump jets back (which I agree with) or some minor quirks (along with other so called tier 1 IS mechs). The Victor did get its agility returned during the quirkening if memory serves (Can anyone confirm this? I thought they said they would.). So they have gone back on some things. Not a lot, but they have. I'm sure it being perhaps the most iconic mech out of the entire Mechwarrior/Battletech series is part of why you see them so much, but it's also because of their performance.

I do think they're slightly overrated, not as bad as others think they are (I just gave a generalized list). I can only hope they don't overnerf them like what others want. I'm with 1453 R on this one. Some tuning, but not a lot and not because I've been owned by one.

[Deathlike]

Praehotec8, on 10 March 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Perhaps the first step in adjusting the Timberwolf is to lock the missile pods on it. That way, even if you take no missiles, the ST silhouette would appear the same (read: large and easy to hit).

It appears to me that many people just unload the missiles and reduce the size of the mech considerably. This, combined with its natural agility which comes from mounting a ridiculously large engine, make it very easy to soak damage. Take away that ability and perhaps some of its appeal would disappear. It would remain a good mech, and perhaps some other tweaks would still be needed, but I think this would be a large first step.

I don't think you understand the total implications of that.

Yes, you do that on the Timberwolf, but then you'd have to universally apply that to EVERY mech. This doesn't have positive implications for TTK for other mechs.

For instance, the Summoner and Thunderbolt's missile rack are pretty significant. The Thunderbolt for the IS is commonly used to peek and shoot ERPPCs (9S) or IS laservomit (5SS) and you're just making it easier to take down because of that attribute. Even the Summoner that's considered pretty durable torsowise becomes more exposed needlessly.

You should really think about the implications of really bad ideas. It's not the "hunchless" Hunch (everyone will still aim @ the RT of that anyways)... it's making already visible attributions to literally increase the overall hitbox and indirectly reduce TTK.

Nothing good would come out of that idea.

[Sjorpha]

Ozealot, on 10 March 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Why?

The basic reason is that clan tech is significantly better than IS tech, but this is obscured by the fact that clan mechs are locked into bad layouts.

So whenever a clan mech has an actually good base layout in terms of engine, upgrades and hardpoints etc, it immediately becomes a balance problem because the imbalances are no longer obscured by the bad build. The Timberwolf is one of those mechs, the most extreme one, that actually has a very good layout to work with.

So in essence, it isn't the Timberwolf itself, it is how it reveals the superiority of clan tech by not being a bad base build.

The Arctic cheetah will have exactly the same effect, as it will be the first clan light allowing a truly good light build.

[Red1769]

Ozealot, on 10 March 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

I don't want to offend anyone but I think Wave 3 will absolutely change what you will encounter on the Clan side. You don't like Timbers? Face Ebon Jags - same Firepower, more agile, sneaky hardpoints (you know what i mean). You don't like Clan range? Face Shadow Cats like you did ECM Cicadas pre Clan. You don't like Firestarters? Imagine one with ECM and Clantech... Gargoyles don't scare you? Meet his big brother...

You're not too far off from most speculators. Ebon Jags definitely are runner ups to the TBR and threaten its superiority. The Shadow Cat is kinda mixed though, as is the Executioner. Both of those depends on how MASC works...and hopefully we'll see some IS mechs with MASC that don't break the speed cap. As you and someone else already mentioned, the Arctic Cheetah will be the first good Clan Light. Should be interesting how these play out indeed.

[Kiiyor]

Ozealot, on 10 March 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

Thanks for clarification then. Wasn't aware of that. Speaking of which I have seen that "bunny hopping" only once by intent while playing so far. And I've got about 9000 drops on my record. So it seems it's quite rare.

Jump into the training grounds, and go third person. Feather the jumpjets, experiment a little, and fire them in about half second bursts.

What you're aiming to tap the space bar as the jump animation finishes. With practice, you can do it every time. You can also trigger it by tapping like crazy. In third person, you can really see how jarring the effect is.

[White Bear 84]

FupDup, on 10 March 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

It's been known as one of the top mechs if not the top mech for a while now. Whether or not it'll get nerfed is anybody's guess. And if it does {snip}

PGI on full lockdown

[WarZ]

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 March 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

I currently have a pure Timber Wolf Prime (no omnipods), and the basics completed. Even without 2 times basics I was surprised how quick and agile it was for a 75ton mech.

Okay here is the problem no one is seeming to get:

To be fast and agile, it is locked into a HUGE engine. That huge engine means it has a LOT less available tonnage for weapons and ammo. In the end the only truly "high end" builds for the Timber are laser boats.

You can't carry dual ac20, or dual gauss, and have anything more than 3'ish tons of ammo. You can however carry a good assortment of lasers. Lasers which have LONG burn times and are VERY hot. Depending on what lasers you decide to carry and how many you might be able to pack enough heatsinks in to make it viable.

And if you arent a laser boat then you are a mix of weapons like a single large ballistic and a few lasers. All weapon loadouts that the IS can do comfortably and in many cases MUCH better.

What makes the chasis so nice is the speed. You can keep up with most mechs, and move around the battle field more easily. If you are a decent pilot speed is HUGE.

What the whiners dont realize is that the Timber is a very one dimensional mech to be at its best. Otherwise its nothing special short of its speed.

[operatorZ]

1453 R, on 10 March 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

The Timber Wolf is, as others have stated, a perfect storm of ideal or near-ideal characteristics with no real weak points to pick at, unlike the lopsided over-quirked Spheroid machines which are ostensibly meant to deal with it. It benefits from all available Clan weight-saving upgrades which maximizes its pod space, it sits in a tonnage sweet spot where mobility/armor ratios are concerned, and moreover it sinks a great deal of weight into a 375XL engine which offers it an excellent mobility profile. The further addition of the S-variant’s jump jets are just unnecessary icing on the cake. Whatever your ‘Mech can do, the Timber Wolf can generally do it to, which makes it unpredictable as well as versatile. You can’t spot a Timber Wolf and know for an absolute fact what it’s bringing, like you can with the Glorious New Era ™ of hilariously, depressingly over-quirked Spheroid machines, and frankly? Whatever any given TBR picks to do, it’ll be better at it than you are.

The answer most players seem to come to, though, is to make it move like a post-Nerfinator VTR, hit it with a set of speed/agility negaquirks that would, essentially, rob it of any value it derives from having that bigass 375XL installed in it. The Timber Wolf sacrifices pod space for that engine in return for exceptional movement capabilities for its weight class; what most players seem to espouse is removing the benefits of that engine and making the Timber Wolf move more as if it had a 300XL or a 325XL in it rather than a 375XL, a’la 20% or greater reductions in turn/twist/accel speed and shaving ten-odd klicks off its top speed, which are ostensibly regained via Speed Tweak but not really.

This would give the Timber Wolf the definite weakness players are eager to see it have –in this case, moving like an ordinary assault ‘Mech rather than an up-engined heavy ‘Mech – and the fact that this reinforces the awful, awful things that have been done to the Victor, Highlander, Gargoyle, and almost certainly the Executioner doesn’t seem to bother these folks at all. The general consensus seems to be that things which are big are not allowed to also be fast, no matter what sacrifices they may have otherwise made to be there.

If you’re over 70 tons, you’re going to either be denied the ability to up-engine enough to move well in the first place (at which point you get to compensate by bringing extra armor/guns), or you get to be smacked with vicious negaquirks that inflict severe penalties on your movement profile, which require you to up-engine to the max simply to keep up with the ‘Mechs who take five or ten less tons of engine and thus get five or ten tons more gun than you do. As we’ve seen with the Gargoyle and its ludicrously unnecessary ‘Huge’ movement profile, this has the effect of essentially removing you from the game completely.

My oft-repeated forlorn calls to investigate other means by which the Timber Wolf might be brought to heel have been universally scorned by the player base, who have decided that the VTR Giganerf is the appropriate response to anything over 70 tons with an engine rating higher than 300.

I may – just may, mind – be a little bit bitter over that.

Your solution....take armor off it?

Sorry that's just a nonstarter with most people. TTK is already to low anyway.

If it absolutely had to be nerfed...I mean absof*ckinlutely....I prefer speed nerf to any other you might choose....because I can live with less speed...just not less armor. 😀

Plus with the super quirks the IS is getting its really not as OP as it once was so let's just drop it.

[Andi Nagasia]

i dont think the TimberWolf is god teir i mean before IS quirks it was powerful,
but when is the last time you saw a TimberWolf with just Balistics or Missiles, do they even exist?
it seems like Evey Clan Mech that is Fast with a good deal of Energy Hardpoints and Tonnage will seem OP,
im sure the up and coming Arctic-Cheetah Ebon-Jaguar and Executioner will be considered OP,
why? lots of Energy Points, good Tonnage(for what they do) and Speed,

also Bunny Hopping is not Grounds for a Nerf to a Chassis,
its a side effect of a system that is "not working as intended",
it will eventually be fixed and fixed for all mechs,

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 March 2015 - 08:33 PM, said:

i dont think the TimberWolf is god teir i mean before IS quirks it was powerful,
but when is the last time you saw a TimberWolf with just Balistics or Missiles, do they even exist?
it seems like Evey Clan Mech that is Fast with a good deal of Energy Hardpoints and Tonnage will seem OP,
im sure the up and coming Arctic-Cheetah Ebon-Jaguar and Executioner will be considered OP,
why? lots of Energy Points, good Tonnage(for what they do) and Speed,

also Bunny Hopping is not Grounds for a Nerf to a Chassis,
its a side effect of a system that is "not working as intended",
it will eventually be fixed and fixed for all mechs,

I generally don't even run JJs on mine. My average match damage in TBRs is still over 200 higher than in any other chassis.

I'm sorry, but it TimberGods aren't easy mode, people are doing it wrong, lol.

[ChapeL]

My average damage in clan mechs is always superior to what I do in IS ones. That doesn't mean they are more effective but you know that already.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

I generally don't even run JJs on mine. My average match damage in TBRs is still over 200 higher than in any other chassis.

I'm sorry, but it TimberGods aren't easy mode, people are doing it wrong, lol.

I don't really like the chassis as such I don't run it often and next to never in CW, in pub queue, anything goes.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

I generally don't even run JJs on mine. My average match damage in TBRs is still over 200 higher than in any other chassis.

I'm sorry, but it TimberGods aren't easy mode, people are doing it wrong, lol.

well i usually run support, LRMs and such, i usually get 500+ damage most of the time,
it doesnt seem any less prone to damage than my Nova(love my Nova),

the main problem is Clan Lasers are so good to everything else,
if your running Clan and not running LaserBoat your doing it wrong,

personally i play for fun, my favorite mechs are my LCT & NVA,
i guess as a pilot i have a bit of a death wish, lols