347 replies to this topic

[Jessie C]

There is a few examples of games (eve online comes to mind, and the coming dust 514) allowing you to purchase in game currency for RL money thru the dev's, its a way to increase profits, and hamper real money trading thrid parties. As long as it dosen't make one mech better than another equally fitted mech, it should'nt be a huge issues, people with money to spend will always have more shiny stuff than people who dont. But on the field, skill should be the deciding factor, maybe it takes a little longer to get the cbills to bankroll a good lance, but it wont stop you.

[MrMasakari]

Increased C-Bills income and EXP bonus is paying 2 win? Lol sure it is. I wonder what it would be then if PGI decided to put Clan Heavy Gauss Rifle for sale as premium item with MEGAULTRAPREMIUMDELUXE ammo that multiplies your standard damage x4. THAT is pay to win. Not some extra money and exp which helps you buy convinence goods that don't actually increase your chances of winning. Get a grip people.

[Donovan Jenks]

I think it is just people wanted to create drama. If they read the details they would clearly see that you are paying to save time and not increase your ability to kill people.

The mechs the founders backs come with have different skins for the loadouts are made from the same stock that everyone else can get. You are not paying for a one shot kill weapon or something.

[Gorith]

no1madcow, on 01 July 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

OK then it's not pay to win, what is it then. Pay to get the better components and pay to get faster experience levels(or something like that).

So basically then what you are saying is that it isn't pay to win because there is no guarantee that someone with better equipment that gains experience faster is going to win over someone that has played the same number of hours and hasn't payed for all the extra goodies???

I just don't understand it. I would rather pay to buy the game and everyone have to play to win than to have to lose to lesser qualified pilots because they were able to you for what i have to work for.

I have been playing mech warrior since Vengeance was first released and now I have to throw away all that experience. Now some noob that has never played the game before can buy better mechs, better components and gain faster experience than me.

thank you but i think i am going to pass. I would rather shoot at bots in my own mercs server than to have to pay extra just to be an equal in your servers.

No one is buying better gear sir all the equipment is the same. ALL paying players are getting is faster acsess to things. A PPC is a PPC it does 10 dmg there is no "golden" PPC that does 12 dmg that you can buy. Sure if i drop money I can buy a new mech right out of the box and you may have to play for a few hours or days to get that same mech but they are the same mech.

As for founders mechs... They look differebt and have a nice little money boost

You do not have to spend a dime to have every mech and peice of gear it will simply take you a little longer to get it than someone who is droping real money.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

You all are listening to (people with other opinions) too seriously. They don't know what "pay 2 win" means. I'll say (my opinion); "pay 2 win" means you HAVE to buy combat advantages just to be competitive; else people with those will just roll over you with unfair advantages if you do not. It means you HAVE to buy your competitiveness on the battlefield.

This game however won't do that. Giving them money will simply reduce the time it takes to acquire your next Mech. It won't make that Mech any better once you get it. A Legendary player in a Founder Atlas for example won't be any stronger or different in combat than a freebie player in an Atlas that he grinded from gametime. The first might look different and gain exp/cbills faster, but combat wise they won't be any different. It will come down to skill, not cash. This is what "free 2 play" is.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 01 July 2012 - 09:25 AM.
Removed harsh statements and name calling

[grimzod]

XenomorphZZ, on 30 June 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/27/froze … s-new-map/

You know, I was just cruising along PCGAMER's newsite when I decided to read the comments in that particular MWO article I linked up there, and then I found a disturbing trend that has been creeping up in other various gaming forums and what not...

That suddenly XP and IGC (ingame currency) boosts are considered "pay2win" ...

keimosabe says:
03:44pm June 28 2012
AWESOME! Cannot wait to get back into my mech and... oh wait, it's "pay to win"
http://mwomercs.com/founders
never mind....

This is the comment chain in question. I find that since most games are correcting past F2P practices of "selling power", people complaining about any and all P2W aspects are shifting their focus on boosts... I find this a rather disturbing trend...

I know that in some game economies IGC boosts might actually be borderline P2W but in MWO in particular... its not like that at all... the IGC boost on the mechs in question is only 25%, comparing that to WoT's premium tanks, its quite smaller (though the two game's economies are somewhat different...)

What do yall think of this?

Boosts are pay to have more than just a dozen people consistently play the game. If you can't net casual gamers with disposable income you lose in the f2p space. But the monkeys that say things liek boosts are pay to win simply don't understand the issue enough to bother explaining it to them.

Edited by grimzod, 01 July 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[Vandul]

Such a testament of the "I want it now (without the money or work)" people that play video games. /sigh

[Viper69]

Risky, on 30 June 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Since the big whiny babies who can't afford said boosts came to the gaming community.

Not making fun of poor people, but it is kind of true.

My friend, poor has not a damn thing to do with it. Some people dont have extra income to spare, that does not make them poor. Their priorities may lie somewhere beyond a video game. I hate it when people or their parents have extra money talk about people who do not as if they are lower life forms. One day life will crack you in the nuts and maybe you might not have extra money to have fun things. just remember karma is a b!tch.

[XxZylonxX]

The problem in this dicussion is that everyone gives a different meaning to the term P2W.
To me it means "anything" that gives "any" advantage to a paying player compared to a non paying player.

Actualy come to think of it. I have yet to see a F2P game myself that does not give any advantage to paying players.
Even league of legends with its boosters make people reach lvl 30 (max lvl) faster, which in turn gives you more talent tree points and rune slots in your spellbook. Both give power over a character with less talent tree points or runes like for instance a lower lvl player that played just as much as the one that did fork over cash.
And yes lower lvl players do get matched against higher lvl players.

Its to the potential player to decide if you find the system in place fair.
I spend like 35 eu on League of legends, just not on boosters.

From what I heard thus far I can agree with the model in this game, but you could tell that already from one look at my founders icon.

[Monsoon]

Mossa, on 01 July 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Pay2Win wuld be buying a gun that outdamage all other guns. Getting more XP and/or credits its yust faster progresion. It yust shortens the time to get what you whant while not making it unfair in the battles. Instead of playing for 100h to get what you whant you can yust play for 50h.

As long its no boost towards stats other then Xp/credits/e-peen its not Pay2Win.

Heya Mate, just a friendly correction it is 'Just' not 'Yust'.

[Melcyna]

Let them,

the one that matters in the end is the players who understood the situation and what it means...

heck, if their ridiculous complaint means we have to deal with less ppl with shortage in brain function department or sensible thought, then so much the better.

frankly i'd say that once the details are available, put them in the most clear and concise manner possible to explain the situation...

and LET ppl decide themselves what they make out of it...

if they think it's P2Win and they don't want it, then good riddance... perhaps they think they can make an F2P game that is perfectly FLAT and level. If not then they should be able to comprehend it if the description is clear enough.

[Cirran]

LOL, yep there is no passion in the fan base for this game. I do hope the devs are prepared for what they are unleashing upon themselves. I hope thier network is ready for it when the game goes live. Passion is a good thing, I just hope folks remember when passion turns to flaming or trolling. We all want a good game. We all want a LARGE player base. We all want nice shiney mechs to blow up

Cirran DeCours
One Happy Chien

[Psyche]

Pay 2 Win means 'Paying to Win'.

XP Boosters and C-Bill boosters are Pay 2 Win in the Progression [single player progression in MW:O's case] portion of the game, they have no impact on the competitive portion of the game unless there is a Progression Race (might be a factor in the Meta-Game with boosted player being able to get more done in a comparable amount of time & activity).

Downloadable Content for Single Player games is Pay 2 Win when it gives you items/skills/options that let you 'win' the game easier, with single player game you usually see people complain about not getting Full content because of DLC content being held back. {EDIT: Heck even cosmestic content could be considered 'Pay2Win' in certain contexts (Fashion Contests).}

The existance of Pay 2 Win in the game isn't the argument/problem/question here but rather the existence of multiplayer fairplay and the form it will take.

Saying something isn't Pay 2 Win because it doesn't bother you or negatively impair your game experience doesn't change what it is except to you [in short, your decieving yourself and quite simply thats your business as long as it doesn't affect others].

Slang terms typically are Vague and undefined, so personal definitions don't apply here, unless the specific definition of 'Pay2Win' is stated. You'll find that most people that have posted here have different definitions/interpretations of what 'Pay2Win' is being discussed.

Edited by Psyche, 01 July 2012 - 08:54 AM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

XxZylonxX, on 01 July 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

The problem in this dicussion is that everyone gives a different meaning to the term P2W.
To me it means "anything" that gives "any" advantage to a paying player compared to a non paying player.

There are not "different" meanings to what these mean. There is "1" meaning and if you aren't on track with it you're an *****. Your definition also isn't correct because it doesn't mention the fact that the advantages have to be combat advantages. As I said, "P2W" means it gives combat advantages, ie better Mechs, better weapons, etc. But that will not be the case. A paying customer will be NO BETTER on the battlefield than a freebie customer. This right here means it is NOT "p2w".

Cirran, on 01 July 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

LOL, yep there is no passion in the fan base for this game. I do hope the devs are prepared for what they are unleashing upon themselves. I hope thier network is ready for it when the game goes live. Passion is a good thing, I just hope folks remember when passion turns to flaming or trolling. We all want a good game. We all want a LARGE player base. We all want nice shiney mechs to blow up

Cirran DeCours
One Happy Chien

They better have the hardware for us. I don't want August to come and find myself sitting in a 1h queue to login, then struggling to play with a 500+Latency. But I have good hopes because they can surely see how many people bought Founders and prepare for this number of players. The issue will be when it opens for everyone, because they can't really predict how many random freebie players are going to sign up to play. You can predict the Founders count by just counting Founder purchasers... you can't predict the attention it'll get come release.

[feetjai]

It could be that some people don't know things and just start screaming.... At short term people will believe what these ignorent people yell.
At longterm they will be embaressed as the things they have been claiming are not true. So let those liars yell about Pay to win....
At the end we will see who is right....

[no1madcow]

I understand that I can get the same thing by playing longer, my point is that some of us would rather the playing field be EQUAL from the get go. WE don't want to have to work harder and longer than the people with money do just to be an equal. You say it just takes a little more time for the poor to be able to succeed in this game than the rich.

I am sorry for being so confrontational here but I was so excited when I heard there was going to be a NEW MechWarrior and it was going to be FREE to play. then several months later i get an email telling me that I can pay money to gain an advantage over the others in the game. Well you let the air out of my sail with that one guys.

In my opinion you are setting this game up to fail real fast with this type of misleading advertising. the game is NOT FREE when others get to pay for advantages, its only free to be a target for the paying customers

[Gorith]

Bluten, on 01 July 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

There are not "different" meanings to what these mean. There is "1" meaning and if you aren't on track with it you're an *****. Your definition also isn't correct because it doesn't mention the fact that the advantages have to be combat advantages. As I said, "P2W" means it gives combat advantages, ie better Mechs, better weapons, etc. But that will not be the case. A paying customer will be NO BETTER on the battlefield than a freebie customer. This right here means it is NOT "p2w".

While you are correct that the standard definition of P2W requires a combat advantage. There is no real need for hostile name calling

@Psyche Unless I misunderstood your initial point... Remember there is no single player

[Gabopentin]

As I understand it the only bonus a Founders pack or premium account will give you is an increase in the amount of IGC that you make on each play. Being that I cannot afford the Founders pack but may be able to budget for a premium account, depending on cost then the only difference it will make to me is that I will have to wait and 'grind' to be able to afford the SAME weapons that a Founder gets slightly quicker than I can. Is this P2W? Not if it only take a little play time to afford the same. If the 'bonus' set up was the same as some MMOs that are around in which you pay real money to get Elitist type weaponry then there would be a P2W argument in the offing.

[Melcyna]

no1madcow, on 01 July 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

I understand that I can get the same thing by playing longer, my point is that some of us would rather the playing field be EQUAL from the get go. WE don't want to have to work harder and longer than the people with money do just to be an equal. You say it just takes a little more time for the poor to be able to succeed in this game than the rich.

I am sorry for being so confrontational here but I was so excited when I heard there was going to be a NEW MechWarrior and it was going to be FREE to play. then several months later i get an email telling me that I can pay money to gain an advantage over the others in the game. Well you let the air out of my sail with that one guys.

In my opinion you are setting this game up to fail real fast with this type of misleading advertising. the game is NOT FREE when others get to pay for advantages, its only free to be a target for the paying customers

If you are an old mechwarrior player then it should be rather apparent to you that the mech as they come by are already loaded with the standard loadout that should be lethal in the hand of anyone that knows how to pilot and use it's weapon loadout anyway.

and if you need more Cbills in particular to customize your mech better, then there are 2 things you can do to get better Cbills return...

A. have the booster.
B. play better.

but either way, your mech should be lethal from the get go ASSUMING you know how to use it.

And to put this in the simplest term, a perfectly level and flat F2P online game devoid of ANYTHING at all that might shift the rate of gain one way or another in this day and age?

it does not exist son... the notion that a game can be perfectly level and flat in terms of any possible advantage when it comes to online game DOES not exist to begin with.

Incidentally F2P games been doing boost for more than half a decade, it's existence is not added to MWO without rationale... it's added because it is STANDARD within F2P games today.

Edited by Melcyna, 01 July 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Gabopentin, on 01 July 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

As I understand it the only bonus a Founders pack or premium account will give you is an increase in the amount of IGC that you make on each play. Being that I cannot afford the Founders pack but may be able to budget for a premium account, depending on cost then the only difference it will make to me is that I will have to wait and 'grind' to be able to afford the SAME weapons that a Founder gets slightly quicker than I can. Is this P2W? Not if it only take a little play time to afford the same. If the 'bonus' set up was the same as some MMOs that are around in which you pay real money to get Elitist type weaponry then there would be a P2W argument in the offing.

You should try to get Veteran then. 30$ for 50$ worth of value=good. You'd also get early game access August 7th.