347 replies to this topic

[Arafinar]

Boris5134, on 01 July 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Is this argument OVER yet or are some minds simply STUPID? Ignorance is being stupid without knowing it - STUPID is ignoring or disregarding what is BLATENTLY there in front of you. STUPID is ALSO doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Ignorance = the state or fact of being ignorant lack of knowledge learning, information etc ]
Insanity was defined by Albert Einstien as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results
Stupid = lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull

I would think youre last statement falls under the first definition.
if youre gonna Bi**h atleast get it right please.....

Edited by Arafinar, 01 July 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[light487]

It all comes down to how you define "win"... Yes a boost will get you more XP and C-Bills "faster" but it won't make you a better pilot. It's the same in Tribes: Ascend, you can have a boost for XP and Credits but it doesn't make you a better player. Just because you have the better armor or better weapons "sooner" than someone who doesn't pay for a boost, doesn't mean that person can't be as effective if not more effective at playing than you. I've seen it plenty of times in many games with this model..

Heck, even in WoT where there is certainly a Pay2Win model there, just because someone has bought a Lowe or a T34 etc doesn't mean they are going to rock the world... they still need to have skill and knowledge.. real experience.. not game XP... even with gold rounds, they still need skill..

With MWO, it definitely is looking like it's going to be balanced a lot better because they are taking real and genuine care to ensure that it doesn't turn into a P2W system... of course there are always going to be those who define winning as getting all the stuff quicker than someone else because that is what is important to them.

[Butane9000]

I would not consider a boost pay 2 win because they still have to play the game and be decent enough to make the xp boost matter.

I consider pay to win either in a game where all of the items that are "good" or valuable only being obtainable through money. Also I consider a game pay 2 win when they make obscenely large xp or non real monetary value currency (such as Tribes: Ascend XP points or LoL IP) costs to drive player into spending real money. That's not a very good way to run a business because not everyone has the drive to grind out the cost. The only other type of Pay 2 win I know of is where you pay real money to obtain an item but you use the in game generated currency to only "rent" an item meaning you have to continue playing to even continue using it.

[Melcyna]

I don't get it...

why do the ppl who CLAIM that they are mechwarrior fans or battletech fans and what not make the most retarded arguments like:

'buying bigger weapons... with the Cbills'

if they are an actual fans of the setting shouldn't they know that within the specific time period the upper limit of the weapons are more or less the same?

the mech came with 4 med lasers, someone with the Cbills can refit it with a PPC instead does that mean he just bought a better weapon?

***??? what kind of retarded perception is that? Shouldn't it be pretty obvious that all he did was change the weapon loadout to something better suited for a different range and combat scenario?

[Boris5134]

It is semantics either way (and sorry for not having the EXACT sitation as to WHO said exactly WHAT - I'm no historian)

- The argument that MWO will be P2W based on the current program (of EXP and C-Bill booster for a LIMITED array of available Chasis and ONLY those / that chasis as well as "Cosmetic Differences Only" for a LIMITED timeframe) is not supported by the devs and is reasonably stated via dev chats and publically accesable forums and posts. It is pretty clear it is F2P and P2A(ccelerate). The chasis and weapons on a founder's Mech are STILL the same chasis and weapons found on ANY other Mech - the only difference released via notations is for a cosmetic appearance of a limited selection of chasis. Bringing a full load of PPC's to an infighter's match - is a pretty dumb idea. JUST like Section 8 and Section 8 Prejudice - pick your loadout based on how and where you intend to fight.

- Your argument is invalid.

E.O.F.

Edited by Boris5134, 01 July 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Viper69]

Melcyna,

You are thinking logically, that is your error. There are people who dont understand a AC20 on an atlas does the same damage as an AC20 on a hunchback. A medium laser on a jenner does the same as a medium laser on a catapault. Its not the equipment, its the skill and that is something that real money cannot buy you.

[Bluey]

506 to 36

[The Doc]

To be Honest, i purchased a Founders Package just because i thought of it abit like Kickstarter.

I get something nice out of it, while the company which is doing something amazing for me gets some extra cash.

I feel everyone should donate a little money if they could, F2P is great and all, but i feel that its more an invitation to pay what you feel the game is worth, rather than just play it for free.

[Duymon]

I don't get free players who complain about xp / credit boosts. I don't get how they can play a game for free and then expect to get the same experience as those players who choose to support the developers by purchasing boosts, cosmetic items, etc.

Maybe it's just jealousy.

There is nothing a paying player can do that a free player cannot. Paying ones just get to do some things faster. Once you're in the cockpit and dropped onto the battlefield NOTHING separates Payers from the freebies

Edited by Duymon, 01 July 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[Saren21]

IMHO a C-bill boost as long as its controlled and balianced is fine.

[Melcyna]

Viper69, on 01 July 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Melcyna,

You are thinking logically, that is your error. There are people who dont understand a AC20 on an atlas does the same damage as an AC20 on a hunchback. A medium laser on a jenner does the same as a medium laser on a catapault. Its not the equipment, its the skill and that is something that real money cannot buy you.

But some of these ppl claim they are old mechwarrior players or what not...

It doesn't make any sense...

old fans of BT or Mechwarrior titles KNOW these informations and would not make such mistake, it's a basic knowledge...

i cannot fathom how veteran BT or mechwarrior players could make such a gross error...

[Laserkid]

P2W? in battletech? even if there are premium mechs they will be governed by the same rules as the other mechs. Mechwarrior is going to be more balanced then WoT because the weapons are the same no matter what chassis they are mounted on.

[Draco Argentum]

Melcyna, on 01 July 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

The more accurate assessment is on how much the credit/gold/time sink is in the game that the player have to spend to reach competitive level or what not.

it does not matter AT ALL if the boost is 1000% of the Cbills income if the amount of Cbills needed to buy vital gear or what not (if any are required AT ALL, since mech presumably already come with all it's base variant weapon and equipment anyway) are so small that players will acquire it in no time anyway.

The key part there is not what the boost amount is... rather it's how much the player is expected to work towards it normally, and if it's nominal enough then no matter how big the boost is, it's irrelevant since ppl will have it in no time at all boost or no boost.

The reverse is true, if the work required for player to achieve that level is so massive, and the boost doesn't give much of an increment on the progress rate there then the boost is also irrelevant.

The last combination is if the work required is massive, AND the boost is also massive then indeed we have come to the P2Win territory.

Obviously, I'm trying to keep this simple since only about five people are understanding this concept. Large refers to the relative advantage conferred in terms of total time to progress to an end game config, not the absolute value. This is for the same reason that a 25% pay rise is worthless when your currency is suffering hyperinflation.

Your senarios miss one critical issue, progress in MWO is not linear. You can only pimp out an Atlas so much before you need to buy and pimp something else. That means that we can have a massive boost on a massive total amount of work without it being pay 2 win as long as each individual mech can be brought to an end game worthy config in a nominal timeframe without the boost.

[Pinecones]

I like this community. You all raise valid points and argue them quite expertly

I paid the 120 mainly because I want Piranha Games to have the best shot at producing a good MW Universe game, especially in the MMO market.

And then I want my name as a founding member

Good luck MechWarriors, see you on the field.

[GHQCommander]

XxZylonxX, on 30 June 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

In a way boosts are pay 2 win...
Why? More pilot skills is a more efficient Mech ---> more chance to be victorious over someone with less pilot skills.
Same with credits. It might buy you better weapons sooner.

You might say "but someone playing for free can get the same pilot skills" He will still be at a disadvantage.
If both played 8 hours and 1 got a 50% exp boost. its 8 vs 12 hours skills gain if they both piloted 1 Mech.

Do not get me wrong. To me boosts are generaly accepted in F2P games, but lets not pretend they do not offer an advantage.

Rubbish. Advantage, what a lot of nonsense. Advantage would be if a player can pay to get a perk and be stronger than another player with equal XP, exact same mech and same ability.

Lets call it twins, 2 twins in the game, one used a boost to equal their XP to the others XP. Wheres the advantage then for using the boost other than matching that player? That is not an advantage or paying for something that will help that player in a head to head with any other player in the game of equal XP.

Not having equal XP, is just a state of the game. It is a common condition and accepted part of progression.

Edited by GHQCommander, 02 July 2012 - 05:30 AM.

[Ellister]

Viper69, on 01 July 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

My friend, poor has not a damn thing to do with it. Some people dont have extra income to spare, that does not make them poor. Their priorities may lie somewhere beyond a video game. I hate it when people or their parents have extra money talk about people who do not as if they are lower life forms. One day life will crack you in the nuts and maybe you might not have extra money to have fun things. just remember karma is a b!tch.

yeah I kept thinking should I reply to that, but you said it better then I could, atm, I would love to pay money to a game that I support, but my wife is just about to go of on maternity leave for our 2nd child, providing for these guys is alot more important then my video game enjoyment, so a F2P game is everything I need atm, and once money starts to settle, I will definately be buying stuff ingame that will "boost" my enjoyment

I want the Elite Founders pack, but for me its at the wrong time, shame its limited in time

[Papertarget]

The problem I see here is that when people see "EXP Boost" and "C-Bill Boost", they think it is some really big game changing thing. The boost that you get from the founders pack, is good only for the mech's themselves. You can stay in a single chassis, and build it up over time to become a legend in piloting that mech, true. But it doesn't translate to even a different variant of that mech. So, if you transfer your mech-jock over to the new VARIANT of the same mech, you are starting at the ground floor of the learning tree. Plus, from what has been said (at least what I have read,) each time you go up in the mech's skill tree, you are gaining access to different weapons or changes you can do in a new mech. So that would mean that if you are just getting into a new mech, you can't purchase the best equipment in the game to put onto it. You are still needing to gain exp to "unlock" the new equipment before you can purchase it.

The boost will let you get them faster, but it doesn't give you access to things that someone else won't have access too. In a true "P2W" game, you would be able to purchase weapons or mech's that were inaccessible to the general public. And I don't mean the C-Bill boost, but having the equivalent of clan tech on a mech, or even a clan mech, and only let the people that use real world money have access to them. It would have to be a purchasable game changing item. As it is now, and has been stated, even the Founders Mech's are only a prime variant, and can only be changed in the Mech Lab like a prime variant that is able to be purchased by someone that doesn't spend RL money.

So, yes. A person that pays for a subscription will have a boost in their EXP and C-Bill's. But that boost is not something that will make someone "unbeatable", or even have all that much better then a non-paying player. It will only make it easier to get to the "endgame".

[MorgPyro]

having something that gives a XP/Money boost is not P2W. having something that gives extra armor/health/damage/or in some cases ammo boosts i would consider P2W. because in the end it makes you stronger than others that are at the same point in the game as you

[Draco Argentum]

Papertarget, on 02 July 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

The problem I see here is that when people see "EXP Boost" and "C-Bill Boost", they think it is some really big game changing thing. The
The boost will let you get them faster, but it doesn't give you access to things that someone else won't have access too. In a true "P2W" game, you would be able to purchase weapons or mech's that were inaccessible to the general public. And I don't mean the C-Bill boost, but having the equivalent of clan tech on a mech, or even a clan mech, and only let the people that use real world money have access to them. It would have to be a purchasable game changing item. As it is now, and has been stated, even the Founders Mech's are only a prime variant, and can only be changed in the Mech Lab like a prime variant that is able to be purchased by someone that doesn't spend RL money.

"Inaccessible to the general public" Key words and they're yours. Lets imagine it takes 1000 days of 12 hours a day playing for free to save up for the best mech setup. Now imagine a 1000x c-bill earning boost, you'd get the best mech setup in one day. 999 days where that setup is inaccessible to the general public. Still not pay to win?

Thats a silly hypothetical of course but it puts the lie to your general endorsment on boosts not being pay to win. Founders mech is 25% and premium account is 50% iirc. 75% total isn't likely to be a big enough difference to be pay to win on the c-bills side.

However you can just buy things directly for real money so until we know how long a free player takes to deck out a mech fully we won't know how long you'll have the advantage by opening your wallet.

This is another arguement for an ELO system btw. With ELO if you have low tech mechs and you get matched against someone with a shiney Clan mech with all the trimmings its because they're a really bad pilot and need that gear just to have a chance against you.

[Azzras]

P2W = OP items/content that is purchase only (cannot be obtained via normal gameplay).
Boost = more XP, more currency, etc.