376 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Tennex, on 11 July 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

Oops typo.


The "Knee Joint" Is not present in birds either. Because it is internalized. As our mechs are trying to simulate.

Yes, but the movement type does not actually work without that. Instead it becomes a very sloppy reverse plantigrade.

Without that "internal" hip to knee movement, the digitigrade method of locomotion DOES NOT WORK. What these Mechs, called chicken walkers, incorrectly do, is simply a reverse plantigrade, period.

Digitigrade / Ungilade in Mechwarrior



NOT



regardless of how much you want to claim otherwise, that is NOT a digitigrade mech, and thus one cannot transcribe digitigrade movement onto it.

So, please, before reverting to insults and an attitude, perhaps YOU should learn the subject matter. I am not saying this to attack you, but because it is a FLAWED premise.
the old Robocop Ed-"09 is actually one of the best designed examples of a classic "chicken walker" in motion

note the feet, the weight is centered over the middle.
https://youtu.be/A9l9wxGFl4k?t=25s
honestly one of the better designed physical models of that locomotion, probably because back then it was still a practical model/effect and not CGI handwavium. And it required a massive amount of hipsway to compensate.

Even the AT-ST uses extra joints (look at the forward ankle set up) and if you look close to the hip, a secondary cross joint that flexes behind the visible "hip" to move smoothly.

Both features lacking in your Battletech "Chickenwalkers"

the point being it's one of the most common misconceptions and arguments on the subject.

So continue to be hostile and dismissive, but, you sir, are wrong.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 July 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[Tennex]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Yes, but the movement type does not actually work without that. Instead it becomes a very sloppy reverse plantigrade.

Without that "internal" hip to knee movement, the digitigrade method of locomotion DOES NOT WORK. What these Mechs, called chicken walkers, incorrectly do, is simply a reverse plantigrade, period.

Digitigrade / Ungilade in Mechwarrior



NOT



regardless of how much you want to claim otherwise, that is NOT a digitigrade mech, and thus one cannot transcribe digitigrade movement onto it.

So, please, before reverting to insults and an attitude, perhaps YOU should learn the subject matter. I am not saying this to attack you, but because it is a FLAWED premise.
the old Robocop Ed-"09 is actually one of the best designed examples of a classic "chicken walker" in motion

note the feet, the weight is centered over the middle.
https://youtu.be/A9l9wxGFl4k?t=25s
honestly one of the better designed physical models of that locomotion, probably because back then it was still a practical model/effect and not CGI handwavium. And it required a massive amount of hipsway to compensate.

Even the AT-ST uses extra joints (look at the forward ankle set up) and if you look close to the hip, a secondary cross joint that flexes behind the visible "hip" to move smoothly.

Both features lacking in your Battletech "Chickenwalkers"

the point being it's one of the most common misconceptions and arguments on the subject.

So continue to be hostile and dismissive, but, you sir, are wrong.

Bro you just literally quoted the wiki page from Chicken Walker. Even all the example you posted are the ones on that page.

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Yes, but the movement type does not actually work without that. Instead it becomes a very sloppy reverse plantigrade.

Without that "internal" hip to knee movement, the digitigrade method of locomotion DOES NOT WORK. What these Mechs, called chicken walkers, incorrectly do, is simply a reverse plantigrade, period.

THIS Is a reverse plantigrade:



Please stop saying reverse plantigrade. It is not a thing. And it should never be a thing.

Edited by Tennex, 11 July 2015 - 10:30 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tennex, on 11 July 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Bro you just literally quoted the wiki page from Chicken Walker. Even all the example you posted are the ones on that page.





THIS Is a reverse plantigrade:



Please stop saying reverse plantigrade. It is not a thing. And it should never be a thing.

and yet, that is EXACTLY the mechanical structure of a traditional Chicken Walker. All you have to do is count the number of joints, and how they flex, and the answer is in front of your face.

But whatever dude. Continue to revel in ignorance and wonder why modelers and such won't take your complaint seriously.

Whats sad is how your pride is blinding you to the fact your little gif perfectly demonstrates StJobes and my point.

SMH.

[Tennex]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

and yet, that is EXACTLY the mechanical structure of a traditional Chicken Walker. All you have to do is count the number of joints, and how they flex, and the answer is in front of your face.

But whatever dude. Continue to revel in ignorance and wonder why modelers and such won't take your complaint seriously.

Whats sad is how your pride is blinding you to the fact your little gif perfectly demonstrates StJobes and my point.

SMH.

I'm sorry i didn't realize your point was that you wanted our mechs to walk like they're ratarded and not like this



I'm not asking the animators to listen to me. I'm asking them to emulate successful animation from previous mechwarrior games

Edited by Tennex, 11 July 2015 - 10:59 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tennex, on 11 July 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

I'm sorry i didn't realize your point was that you wanted our mechs to walk like they're ratarded and not like this



I'm not asking the modler s to listen to me. I'm asking them to emulate successful animation from previous mechwarrior games

And I'm saying know your terminology, the mechanics and locomotion, and you present a much more accurate picture for them to listen to.

Also, your precious Cougar you keep trotting out, has a double jointed knee, and even in you gif, comes down centered on the middle flat of the foot


But apparently the blood and epeen thundering in your ears is drowning that out. Or you can't simply acknowledge when you have something wrong, learn from it and move forward.
You've obviously already made your choice. So I'll leave you to it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 July 2015 - 10:43 AM.

[Tennex]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

And I'm saying know your terminology, the mechanics and locomotion, and you present a much more accurate picture for them to listen to.

Are you kidding me dude? All you did is say things from the wiki. And start talking about reverse plantigrads and you are telling me to know my terminology. I'm trying to explain to you why these mechs are digitigrads ******* making charts and **** but you haven't taken the effort to even listen.
It takes a basic understanding of the terminology to have a conversation in it.

There isn't a conversation, because you havent taken the effort to listen to the science behind it. The mech chicken walkers emulate birds as well as the bone structure. Not asking anybody to take an anatomy course, but the facts are there.

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

and yet, that is EXACTLY the mechanical structure of a traditional Chicken Walker. All you have to do is count the number of joints, and how they flex, and the answer is in front of your face.

Have you counted the number of joints on an acutal bird's legs? It is the same as in game mech chicken walkers. Because the femur is hidden. And when these robot makers, whichever ones you quoted, went to design their mechs, this is what they saw. The used these birds without seeing the femur, and animated them to walk like chickens.

Edited by Tennex, 11 July 2015 - 11:00 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tennex, on 11 July 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

Are you kidding me dude? All you did is say things from the wiki. And start talking about reverse plantigrads and you are telling me to know my terminology. I'm trying to explain to you why these mechs are digitigrads ******* making charts and **** but you haven't taken the effort to even listen.
It takes a basic understanding of the terminology to have a conversation in it.

There isn't a conversation, because you havent taken the effort to listen to the science behind it. The mech chicken walkers emulate birds as well as the bone structure. Not asking anybody to take an anatomy course, but the facts are there.




Have you counted the number of joints on an acutal bird's legs? It is the same as in game mech chicken walkers. Because the femur is hidden. And when these robot makers, whichever ones you quoted, went to design their mechs, this is what they saw. The used these birds without seeing the femur, and animated them to walk like chickens.

SMH.

It's been, explained, demonstrated, etc. Continue to cling to what you want to believe, but someday, when you realize what is being said, I hope you have the humility to swallow your pride and get the point.

Just because the femur is hidden, doesn't means it's not articulating the leg. There is no place for that "hidden" femur to articulate on a Madcat, Vulture or Catapult. Because it's not a soft, pliable meatbag hidden under feathers. That AT-ST post I showed you, demonstrates how a "hidden" femur would work on that type of mech, and those mechs have nothing like that.

Until then, seriously, just believe what you will.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 July 2015 - 10:54 AM.

[Tennex]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

And I'm saying know your terminology, the mechanics and locomotion, and you present a much more accurate picture for them to listen to.

Also, your precious Cougar you keep trotting out, has a double jointed knee, and even in you gif, comes down centered on the middle flat of the foot

Its okay for them to come down on the flat of the foot, because for a chicken walker. That is where the phalanges are (toes). For a plantigrade the flat of the foot would be metatarsals.

Edited by Tennex, 11 July 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[stjobe]

Tennex, on 11 July 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

There isn't a conversation, because you havent taken the effort to listen to the science behind it. The mech chicken walkers emulate birds as well as the bone structure. Not asking anybody to take an anatomy course, but the facts are there.

No, just no.

Look at this:


There is a HIP JOINT where the ostrich has a KNEE JOINT. The chicken walkers are not meant to "emulate birds as well as the bone structure" - they have a different, unique bone structure that AFAIK no living animal on this planet has.

Look at the catapult:



That is a HIP JOINT connecting the leg to the pelvis, which connects to a WAIST; something no bird I'm aware of has.

Listen, we all LOVE chicken walkers; they're cool as hell. But their leg design is not modelled on birds, because where a chicken walker has a hip joint, the bird has a knee joint.

Chicken walkers walk like chicken walkers, not like chicken.

And yes, they should come down on the flat of their feet, because that looks coolest.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 11 July 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

No, just no.

Look at this:


There is a HIP JOINT where the ostrich has a KNEE JOINT. The chicken walkers are not meant to "emulate birds as well as the bone structure" - they have a different, unique bone structure that AFAIK no living animal on this planet has.

Look at the catapult:



That is a HIP JOINT connecting the leg to the pelvis, which connects to a WAIST; something no bird I'm aware of has.

Listen, we all LOVE chicken walkers; they're cool as hell. But their leg design is not modelled on birds, because where a chicken walker has a hip joint, the bird has a knee joint.

Chicken walkers walk like chicken walkers, not like chicken.

And yes, they should come down on the flat of their feet, because that looks coolest.

as small as the femur is, without the play between the hidden hip, and the exposed knee, their movement would be near impossible, and clumsy as heck.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 July 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Tennex]

stjobe, on 11 July 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Chicken walkers walk like chicken walkers, not like chicken.

And yes, they should come down on the flat of their feet, because that looks coolest.

Thats a fair point. Since no mechs actually have femurs they can't walk exactly like birds. But in the same vein that, a humanoid walker without any intervertebral joint's can't walk exactly like a human.

But they simulate it as close as they can. Hence why they are called "chicken walkers"

U keep arguing with me. But the ultimate point, i think everybody here agrees with, is that they should walk like birds, or as close as possible like in the below image.



And not like this:

Edited by Tennex, 11 July 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[stjobe]

I guess that's as close to a "okay, you were right and I was wrong" I'll get from you, so I'll take it.

[Tennex]

stjobe, on 11 July 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

I guess that's as close to a "okay, you were right and I was wrong" I'll get from you, so I'll take it.

I mean "chicken walkers don't walk like chickens, they walk like chicken walkers" really? "Chicken walker" literally means walking like chickens

"bird faced, doesn't mean your face looks like a bird, it means your face looks bird faced" - yes its true, a person who looks bird faced will never actually look like a bird. but instead look like a person who is bird faced. lol.

Edited by Tennex, 11 July 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 11 July 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

I guess that's as close to a "okay, you were right and I was wrong" I'll get from you, so I'll take it.

[stjobe]

Tennex, on 11 July 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

I mean "chicken walkers don't walk like chickens, they walk like chicken walkers" really? "Chicken walker" literally means walking like chickens

And you obviously still don't get it.

Yes, "chicken walker" means "walks like a chicken". However, chicken walkers don't actually walk like chicken, since their leg structure is rather different.

That was my point.

[Tennex]

stjobe, on 11 July 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

And you obviously still don't get it.

Yes, "chicken walker" means "walks like a chicken". However, chicken walkers don't actually walk like chicken, since their leg structure is rather different.

That was my point.

I know what your point is. I'm saying its a very safe point.

Tennex, on 11 July 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

"bird faced, doesn't mean your face looks like a bird, it means your face looks bird faced" - yes its true, a person who looks bird faced will never actually look like a bird. but instead look like a person who is bird faced. lol.

A person's face will never look like a bird, because he is a person.

"a person's whos actually seen a bird, will know right away that a bird faced person isn't a bird" Yeah I agree lol

Look since we are at the point of arguing semantics and splitting hairs between "bird like" and "like a bird". I think we should all call it a day and just agree that the catapult animation looks really good and more mechs should look like it

Edited by Tennex, 11 July 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 11 July 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

And you obviously still don't get it.

Yes, "chicken walker" means "walks like a chicken". However, chicken walkers don't actually walk like chicken, since their leg structure is rather different.

That was my point.

thus the premise of the whole "rant", was flawed and incorrect. But correctable. Was simply attempting to point that out, but apparently that makes me the bad guy.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 July 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[stjobe]

Tennex, on 11 July 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

Look since we are at the point of arguing semantics and splitting hairs between "bird like" and "like a bird

It's not just semantics, You kind of started this whole thing by inventing a femur that doesn't exist and then rabidly and rather vehemently claiming the chicken walker legs have the same structure as bird legs. They don't, and I'd like you to acknowledge that.

Tennex, on 11 July 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

I think we should all call it a day and just agree that the catapult animation looks really good and more mechs should look like it

Yes.

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

thus the premise of the whole "rant", was flawed and incorrect. But correctable.

Apparently that remains to be seen. I thought it was corrected, but then he went off again.

[Tennex]

stjobe, on 11 July 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

It's not just semantics, You kind of started this whole thing by inventing a femur that doesn't exist and then rabidly and rather vehemently claiming the chicken walker legs have the same structure as bird legs. They don't, and I'd like you to acknowledge that.

I agree they don't. They simply simulate it bird's bone structure, much like an atlas simulates a human's bone structure but will never be a human. The point is that when the creators made these "Chicken walker" mechs, it was with how a chicken walks in mind. And subsequently the joints simulate those of a bird's.

Chicken walker mechs will never have a femur. Like you said, a chicken walker will never actually walk like a chicken. I mean that isn't an arguable point lol.

Theres no need to be stubborn. Afterall nobody here has admitted that there is no such thing as a reverse knee, or reverse plantigrade.

Edited by Tennex, 11 July 2015 - 12:05 PM.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

So since we're talking realism about legs and such...



There is that.

How does the ammo people are allowed to store in the toes of a battlemech make it past all of the joints, myomers, and endo steel into the launchers and guns? Or even the joints in the arms for that matter? Tons of ammo and the size of the reloads... just always seemed silly to me. Even the blueprints never fully explained this phenomenon.

Also, how does a torso twisting PGI Jenner not throw the pilot up against the cockpit glass?