376 replies to this topic

[bad arcade kitty]

hmm... i didn't say that i agreed with you, i said that i like the plenty of pics that you are making :3

consider these two pics




the leg of timber undoubtedly has 1 joint less if you want to think of timber as of walking on its toes instead of the whole feet... either it lacks the hip joint or it has reversed knee, you can call them whatever

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 12 July 2015 - 06:09 AM.

[Tennex]

bad arcade kitty, on 12 July 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

hmm... i didn't say that i agreed with you, i said that i like the plenty of pics that you are making :3

consider these two pics




the leg of timber undoubtedly has 1 joint less if you want to think of timber as of walking on its toes instead of the whole feet... either it lacks the hip joint or it has reversed knee, you can call them whatever

It doesn't need a femur. Any more than an atlas needs a scapula.

It is simulating a creature, that doesn't appear to have a femur.

I'm sorry. I thought you knew more about the subject. At least Stjobe has a problem with the "heel" of a mech being on its "Knee" without the "knee" being an ankle. Because FFS "heels" go on ankles not knees.


Guys please. I actually have to get work done today

Edited by Tennex, 12 July 2015 - 06:22 AM.

[stjobe]

Tennex, on 12 July 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

Thanks buddy its good to see ppl who understand the leg structures a bit

It's not really a case of "understanding leg structures", I think we all do that, more or less.

It is a case of you claiming that the upper joint on the Mad Cat is its knee while the middle is its ankle, whereas I claim that the upper joint on the Mad Cat is a hip joint, the middle one is a knee joint, and the lower is the ankle.

You say the Mad Cat's leg structure is the same as the Ostrich's, I say that's baloney and that the Mad Cat has the leg structure of a chicken walker, not a chicken.

To me it's rather obvious that the top joint is not a hinge joint (like the knee and ankle) but a ball-and-socket joint (like the hip), and I'm having trouble believing you cannot see the same.

Look at the pelvis of the 'mech; the joint attaching the leg to the pelvis can't really be a knee joint, and it isn't a knee joint. Hence, that isn't the knee of the 'mech. The joint below that is a knee joint, and hence that is where the knee is.

There is no joint in between that upper joint and the middle joint, so that would mean that the femur and the tibia/fibula along with the whole knee is fused into one big thigh bone - either that, or our 'mechs have no thighs at all.

Both of these suggestions are rather ridiculous, especially in the light of Strum Wealh's annotated image of the Mad Cat's leg. Everything a leg needs is in there, clearly labelled and looking very functional.

[Tennex]

stjobe, on 12 July 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

To me it's rather obvious that the top joint is not a hinge joint (like the knee and ankle) but a ball-and-socket joint (like the hip), and I'm having trouble believing you cannot see the same.

Sure, we'll call it a 'hip' like alex does.

And you can be at peace with heels sticking out of knees lol. Let's call it a day

Edited by Tennex, 12 July 2015 - 06:31 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

stjobe, on 12 July 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

Look at the pelvis of the 'mech; the joint attaching the leg to the pelvis can't really be a knee joint

didn't you see, they already answered "It doesn't need a femur." (:

[stjobe]

Tennex, on 12 July 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Sure, we'll call it a 'hip' like alex does.

It was Dennis' notes to Alex, but no matter. So you're okay with what everyone else calls a 'hip', you call a 'knee'?

Tennex, on 12 July 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

And you can be at peace with heels sticking out of knees lol.

There's bits sticking out all over the place on these 'mechs; doesn't mean they're all heels.

Tennex, on 12 July 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Let's call it a day

You probably should. You're not batting 100 here, exactly.

bad arcade kitty, on 12 July 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

didn't you see, they already answered "It doesn't need a femur." (:

Yeah, and he claims to be the one with all the biology knowledge...

[Jin Ma]

stjobe, on 12 July 2015 - 01:45 AM, said:

Just to put things in perspective a bit, that nicely coloured image of the Mad Cat with a "hidden" femur was a "what-if" by Jin Ma:

Before we freak out about missing femurs.
Lets talk scapulas, Tennex already kindly pointed out that the scapula is not represented on any of our mechs. And nobody sees a problem with that. But lets take a look at the image below:



Is that a scapula?! Omg dinosaurs are freaking out everywhere because someone decided not to feature such a prominent bone in a vide4o g4me!!
(And yes, the shoulder used to be a hinged joint. But somehow everybody's mind is blown that it is now a socket joint. Like the knee/hips our chicken walkers have)

More examples:

Spoiler

Now moving on to our problem at hand of the missing femur. We'll use the best example of a flightless bird; the Ostrich with running speeds of up to 40mph.



Over the years the ancestors of the ostrich have adapted to their hostile environment in Africa (cheetahs are mean) by becoming one of the best land runners. And at the same time, its femur has significantly shrunk in length, and increased in girth in comparison to its flying counterparts. This is because the femur while still a prominent part of the bird's locomotion, is inching closer to a stabilization role. To support the weight of its powerful legs, and serve as the insertion and origin point to many of its powerful leg muscles.



Well golly gee. Increased girth... decreased length... stabilization.. that almost sounds like what happened to the scapula!

Anyway the point is
Are femurs obsolete in these birds? Absolutely not (just like the scapula)
Do bird femurs need to be represented to its full extent in a video game? Probably not (like the scapula)

Edited by Jin Ma, 12 July 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[stjobe]

That's all very interesting (except for the scapula part, that was incredibly irrelevant) but doesn't really explain why you had to go and invent a femur when one already exists.

Look, the chicken walker leg design is NOT the same as a bird's leg design. That's really all there is to it.

[Jin Ma]

stjobe, on 12 July 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

That's all very interesting (except for the scapula part, that was incredibly irrelevant) but doesn't really explain why you had to go and invent a femur when one already exists.

Look, the chicken walker leg design is NOT the same as a bird's leg design. That's really all there is to it.

Ah yes. The i'm right and that's it line of argument. Very strategic.

[stjobe]

Jin Ma, on 12 July 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Ah yes. The i'm right and that's it line of argument. Very strategic.

I've laid out my argument for the last three pages or so, feel free to go re-read them.

But just for you then; I think Bad Arcade Kitty actually made the best illustration of the problem with yours and Tennex' idea of a "hidden" femur:



"Hip where" indeed.

[Tennex]

Jin Ma, on 12 July 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Ah yes. The i'm right and that's it line of argument. Very strategic.

Hes not going to make any arguments of his own or make any rebuttals to your points or even understand them. He just kind of repeats his same argument in different ways. Its been happening for 3 pages now

Jin Ma, on 12 July 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Anyway the point is
Are femurs obsolete in these birds? Absolutely not (just like the scapula)
Do bird femurs need to be represented to its full extent in a video game? Probably not (like the scapula)

CLAPCLAPCLAPCLAPCLAP

Edited by Tennex, 12 July 2015 - 11:17 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jin Ma, on 12 July 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Ah yes. The i'm right and that's it line of argument. Very strategic.

except that for locomotion above and beyond a shamble in a bird walker, that flex of the femur is crucial. The chicken walker as popularized can walk. Slowly and clumsily. Even ones like the ED209 use a sliding "knee" to give required bob to be able to have some ability to walk.

It's a simple matter of biomechanics, and your scapula has NOTHING to with it. Because the range of motion being duplicated is utterly different.

Also, if you want to insist on "counting joints from the bottom up", you really have a problem, since the first part on there PGI mechs is a plantigrade foot, not digitigrade. Only a handful have those, and those are not remotely "chicken walker" designs. The Thanatos. Nova Cat. Lament. All toe (oh, wait, to sound as educated as our wiki-radiologist), "phalanges-walkers".

Timberwolf? Mad Dog? Catapult? Toes flex in stride, but they walk squarely centered on flat feet. That is plantigrade.

But ya'll haven't let facts and details get in your way yet, so by all means continue to promote ignorance.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 July 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[Jin Ma]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 July 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

except that for locomotion above and beyond a shamble in a bird walker, that flex of the femur is crucial. The chicken walker as popularized can walk. Slowly and clumsily. Even ones like the ED209 use a sliding "knee" to give required bob to be able to have some ability to walk.

But ya'll haven't let facts and details get in your way yet, so by all means continue to promote ignorance

Of course, i concede my fancy argument with all this bone talk, logic and fresh perspective. I'm sorry for the ignorance, these scientific facts and details about the fictional ED209, that you have repeated for several pages now just blew my mind.

The effective use of citation from materials such as RoboCop(1987), Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens, and https://en.wikipedia.../Chicken_walker really just drove home those points.

I am sure you are a very educated individual, and I thank you so much for the education

Edited by Jin Ma, 13 July 2015 - 07:26 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jin Ma, on 13 July 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Of course, i concede my fancy argument with all this bone talk, logic and fresh perspective. I'm sorry for the ignorance, these scientific facts and details about the fictional ED209, that you have repeated for several pages now just blew my mind.

The effective use of citation from materials such as RoboCop(1987), Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens, and https://en.wikipedia.../Chicken_walker really just drove home those points.

Thank you so much for the education

Yes, ignore the actual application of practical effects. And the pages of actual structure talk from myself, stjobe and strum, fro your laughably poorly thought out fantasies. The ignorance has been long noted and now this thread exists solely to amuse me while you flail about.

Perhaps you might actually stop and take the time to learn a few points about bio-mimetics, building robots, and just about any other form of mechanical engineering. But then...you might actually learn what you are talking about. And my entertainment would decrease.

[Jin Ma]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 July 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

Perhaps you might actually stop and take the time to learn a few points about bio-mimetics, building robots, and just about any other form of mechanical engineering. But then...you might actually learn what you are talking about. And my entertainment would decrease.

Yes I am very well aware of your knowledge in bio-mimetics, building robots, and any other form of mechanical engineering. As demonstrated by your effective wikipedia citations.

[Tombstoner]

The Mechromancer, on 14 March 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

that slender torso... ;_; maybe one day...

These images perfectly illustrate the need for location specific armor coefficients and hit location frequency modeling. With them you can make a mech any way you want and correct for any issues. like an easy to hit CT.
If the CT has a hit frequency 20% higher then the median then you give it +20% armor quirk.

But when you set out to make a minimally viable produce you get this....

[Tarogato]

The last four pages of this thread.