152 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

Wrathful Scythe, on 15 March 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

sigh... why don't they just scale their mechs with the official heights of each mech. This is bullsh*t. I mean, I haven't bought them so it doesn't really matter to me, but it still pretty much sucks.

Is proper scaling really that hard to achieve? Because there are many mechs who just don't look like the tonnage they represent. If they would take the informations from TT, well, many would still cry but PGI could make excuses.

The major lack of realism in the MWO scaling is actually how small the light mechs are.

Going by realistic weight scaling laws and assuming similar density and shape, a 20 ton mech should be roughly 58% the height of a 100 ton mech.

If we take two humanoid mechs of comparable shape, like the Firestarter and Atlas, a 35 ton humanoid should be roughly 70% the height of a 100 ton humanoid. Since the Firestarter is slimmer than the Atlas it should probably be closer to 80%

The Zeus must be quite dense for it's tonnage, befitting of it's namesake...

This is due to how much weight it costs to increase height in a three dimensional space, the cost is much much more that most people feel it should be.

An elephant weight about 70 times as much as a human, but is only twice the height!

That's how weight - height scaling in the real world works, so be careful what you wish for.

The slim figure of the Grasshopper easily accounts for the tonnage difference between it and assault mechs in realistic terms.

In fact, all mechs in MWO should be much closer to each other in size, the only way to rationalise the current extreme size differences between assaults and light is to assume the assaults have very very low density, maybe they are filled with plastic foam or other isolation?

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 March 2015 - 03:33 AM.

[Onmyoudo]

The Grasshopper does not have high-mounted hardpoints (except the worthless missile pod). High-mounted is relative to the cockpit, i.e. the amount of mech you need to expose to be able to shoot - not being physically higher than hardpoints on other mechs. The Grasshopper still has to expose all of it's body to shoot and hence has low-mounted hardpoints. They might be higher than the super-low points on the phract, though. Comparatively, it looks like the hardpoints on the Zeus are higher than the Grasshopper.

Obviously we will have to see what happens on Tuesday. But at the moment, it looks like the Grasshopper is going to be even less worthwhile than the Panther, which at least looks cool.

[El Bandito]

Onmyoudo, on 15 March 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

The Grasshopper does not have high-mounted hardpoints (except the worthless missile pod). High-mounted is relative to the cockpit, i.e. the amount of mech you need to expose to be able to shoot - not being physically higher than hardpoints on other mechs. The Grasshopper still has to expose all of it's body to shoot and hence has low-mounted hardpoints. They might be higher than the super-low points on the phract, though. Comparatively, it looks like the hardpoints on the Zeus are higher than the Grasshopper.

Obviously we will have to see what happens on Tuesday. But at the moment, it looks like the Grasshopper is going to be even less worthwhile than the Panther, which at least looks cool.

Now hang on a second. The hard point locations for the Hopper is not as bad as you claim.

When compared with Zeus--which has good hardpoints in terms of height--the Hopper has to expose similar amount of body section to shoot.

Here is the amount of body the Hopper and the Zeus have to expose when firing their arm weapons.




Here is the amount of body the Hopper and the Zeus have to expose when firing their torsi weapons.



Not too bad right? However, the fact remains that the Hopper is still an Assault sized 70 ton mech, and Zeus is a Heavy sized Assault mech, and PGI's modeling team had derped big time.


Here is the amount of body the Hopper and the Phract have to expose when firing their arm weapons. Phract loses here.




Here is the amount of body the Hopper and the Phract have to expose when firing their torsi weapons. Phract can clearly hump hill better with its energy slots.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 March 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[Kjudoon]

actually, you left out the Cataphract's big RT ballistic, so slight advantage to the Hopper... and I mean slight.

I agree the Hopper should also only be a fraction taller than the 'phract, instead of taller than the Zeus.

Edited by Kjudoon, 15 March 2015 - 05:14 AM.

[Mavairo]

FFS....

Seriously PGI?

Start using TT heights for mechs already. You suck at this.

[El Bandito]

Grasshopper vs. Quickdraw. Bear in mind QD is also vastly overscaled for a 60 tonner.




Zeus vs. Quickdraw. LOLOLOLOLOL. Zeus is 20 tons heavier yet smaller in size. PGI, man...

[Creovex]

xe N on, on 14 March 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

Grasshopper is DOA. Zeus might be a Victor without jumpjets what still is bad.




Actually, nobody plays Shadowhawks. SHDs were played because they made up good jumpsnipers. Nowadays however ... seldom see one, and if then the 2K.

Amazing.... you polled everyone and nobody plays it??? I see them all the time and even run some myself. There are tons of mech to choose from and they are still in matches so less dramatic statements next time.

[Fuggles]

Clearly the quickdraw needs to slim down!

I'm really supprised the zeus is as small as it is. I think the hopper will be fine though.

[warner2]

There must be some technical reason for the odd scaling. If there weren't, they would be able to resize them. Do they reuse animations or something. There must be modellers here who can guess at what is going on. The Zeus looks a little small, the Grasshopper looks like significantly too big. I would like to see the Grasshopper stood next to the Victor. Still, the GH is basically assault sized at this point

[El Bandito]

warner2, on 15 March 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

There must be some technical reason for the odd scaling. If there weren't, they would be able to resize them. Do they reuse animations or something. There must be modellers here who can guess at what is going on. The Zeus looks a little small, the Grasshopper looks like significantly too big. I would like to see the Grasshopper stood next to the Victor. Still, the GH is basically assault sized at this point

Here you go. Grasshopper is slightly taller, but slimmer than Victor. Victor is also too big for a 80 tonner though.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 March 2015 - 06:46 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

warner2, on 15 March 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

There must be some technical reason for the odd scaling. If there weren't, they would be able to resize them. Do they reuse animations or something. There must be modellers here who can guess at what is going on. The Zeus looks a little small, the Grasshopper looks like significantly too big. I would like to see the Grasshopper stood next to the Victor. Still, the GH is basically assault sized at this point

rigging, textures meshes, all the camo skins. Apparently you can't just grab a scaling slider, and pick your size. (Condensed from previous PGI defending their scaling posts).

Which may all be true. Which, as I told them then, would be even more reason to GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST BLOODY PLACE.

[Burktross]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 March 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

rigging, textures meshes, all the camo skins. Apparently you can't just grab a scaling slider, and pick your size. (Condensed from previous PGI defending their scaling posts).

Which may all be true. Which, as I told them then, would be even more reason to GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST BLOODY PLACE.

Fairly certain several people have done exactly that.
In fact I'm pretty sure I can do this for Half-Life 1 models.
You know, with a development kit from 1997.

[Bishop Steiner]

Burktross, on 15 March 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

Fairly certain several people have done exactly that.
In fact I'm pretty sure I can do this for Half-Life 1 models.
You know, with a development kit from 1997.

you note the "which may be true", which implies skepticism? I'm not defending it.

[Alienized]

i play the quickdraw alot and i dont have any negative things about its size in my head atm. yes it is big but also the torso-hardpoints are just under the cockpit. no need to expose it alot BUT you can shoot above low buildings while walking past them which not every mech can do.

i barely have any problems with the victor either.

i seriously cant understand your problems with the size of mechs atm.
every mech heavier than 50 tons is a victim on open land.

[Burktross]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 March 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

you note the "which may be true", which implies skepticism? I'm not defending it.

I wasn't exactly stating that against you, so much as against PGI's claims.

[Koniving]

TheMadTypist, on 14 March 2015 - 09:30 PM, said:

'mechs that are fast (or fast-ish) or/and carry JJ's across all variants tend to be oversized to "compensate", such as the Dragon and Quickdraw.

'mechs that lack JJ's on most variants and/or aren't considered particularly fast tend to be physically smaller, or at least more compact.

The Zeus is small because it has average speed for a light assault, and no JJ equipment, where the victor suffers because it has JJ's and was introduced in an era where 48kph was the starting point for every assault outside the AWS-9M.

The Grasshopper is large because it has average speed with the potential to upgrade to fast (ish) and includes JJ's on all variants.

The Grasshopper's obvious downside is a clear vote of confidence from PGI to the 'mech's effectiveness. The obvious bonuses in both armor quirks and size are a similar indicator in the other direction of how they think the Zeus will be received.

I've noticed this trend.

[Juju Shinobi]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 March 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

nope, not even close.

Lore the tallest Mechs are pretty much the Executioner and Banshee, at about 14 meters. Atlas in MWO is about 17.

Wait, the Atlas is 17m in game when the Banshee is supposed to be the tallest-ish at 14m? PGI, please do something about scaling. Some mechs are almost unplayable because they are too huge for their tonnage/weight class. We've gone over this before

[FupDup]

I'm starting to get a bad feeling that the Basshopper could get a Huge movement archetype instead of Large, seeing how it's basically Banshee height. Fortunately for me I only bought up to the Enforcer, but for everyone else...

Edited by FupDup, 15 March 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 March 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

rigging, textures meshes, all the camo skins. Apparently you can't just grab a scaling slider, and pick your size. (Condensed from previous PGI defending their scaling posts).

Which may all be true. Which, as I told them then, would be even more reason to GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST BLOODY PLACE.

I know you are just repeating what they said, but I kinda get tired of repeating myself on this because it is easy to debunk the textures or rigs to be the problem.

Textures are the same size regardless of the size of the mech so this is a non-issue.
Once a mech is rigged, all you have to do is scale the root bone and everything else scales with it, this means both the rig and the model itself are all scaled. It literally is like grabbing a scale slider and picking the size.

The only possible problem they could have is if the animations don't translate well with the scaled size.

[Sjorpha]

El Bandito, on 15 March 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

Here you go. Grasshopper is slightly taller, but slimmer than Victor. Victor is also too big for a 80 tonner though.

If you magine those are people, and that Victor weighs 80kg. I think the grasshopper looks at least 10-15kg lighter, so scaling as compared to Victor is fine.

Russ answered a tweet and stated it would not have huge archetype.

There are actually some advantages to being tall as well, such as less travel time when jumping to peekaboo/poptart over terrain and shooting over other friendly mechs. The more I look at it, the more I think I'll enjoy it.

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 March 2015 - 09:09 AM.