437 replies to this topic

[Adiuvo]

Yokaiko, on 19 March 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Out load no, similar builds, yes.

quad UAC5s? Check
6 AC2/UAC/LB2X? Check
Dual guass dual PPC/ER-PPC? Check
Dual AC20/UAC20? Check

I like the quad UAC10s personally, but its a giggle build, I never use it for srs buisiness, its the only thing I do with a Whale that I can't do with a Crab.

None of those are optimized loadouts, so they're pointless for a balance discussion.

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 19 March 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

None of those are optimized loadouts, so they're pointless for a balance discussion.

Lots of the examples tossed around in the "Clans OP plz nerf" threads are not optimized builds adiuvo...

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 03:09 PM, said:

Lots of the examples tossed around in the "Clans OP plz nerf" threads are not optimized builds adiuvo...

I don't doubt it. I don't pay attention to forum threads much. 99% of people don't know what they're talking about here.

Edited by Adiuvo, 19 March 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Adiuvo, on 19 March 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

None of those are optimized loadouts, so they're pointless for a balance discussion.

....they are the common builds for BOTH chassis, the main theme anyway.

But feel free to show me 8 "optimized" loadouts that don't carry those four combinations.

[Adiuvo]

Yokaiko, on 19 March 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

....they are the common builds for BOTH chassis, the main theme anyway.

But feel free to show me 8 "optimized" loadouts that don't carry those four combinations.

I'm not sure in what universe 6 AC2s are common or 2x AC20 Daishis. Or crabs for that matter, most people just bring 2x gauss...

General optimized loadout for a Daishi is 2x gauss/lasers or 3x gauss/lasers. For a King Crab it's 2x gauss/lasers. You can find specific builds somewhere, cba to link them.

[Yokaiko]

Adiuvo, on 19 March 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

I'm not sure in what universe 6 AC2s are common or 2x AC20 Daishis. Or crabs for that matter, most people just bring 2x gauss...

General optimized loadout for a Daishi is 2x gauss/lasers or 3x gauss/lasers. For a King Crab it's 2x gauss/lasers. You can find specific builds somewhere, cba to link them.

Dual IS AC20 are uncommon?

What parallel Universe is this.

[Adiuvo]

Yokaiko, on 19 March 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

Dual IS AC20 are uncommon?

What parallel Universe is this.

If we're talking about a perfect loadout taking all advantages of mech?

Yes.

No point when the KGC has incredibly high energy hardpoints which lead it to being an excellent peeker. That in itself functions better with gauss rifles, and not short range AC20s. The gauss in general is a better weapon than an AC20, due to projectile speed, range, and lack of heat. 10 damage isn't relevant compared to the ability to kill past 350m.

[Yokaiko]

Adiuvo, on 19 March 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

If we're talking about a perfect loadout taking all advantages of mech?

Yes.

No point when the KGC has incredibly high energy hardpoints which lead it to being an excellent peeker. That in itself functions better with gauss rifles, and not short range AC20s. The gauss in general is a better weapon than an AC20, due to projectile speed, range, and lack of heat. 10 damage isn't relevant compared to the ability to kill past 350m.

The ballistics are on the arms, your point is invalid.

Edited by Yokaiko, 19 March 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Yokaiko, on 19 March 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

Dual IS AC20 are uncommon?

What parallel Universe is this.

depends on Elo, I'd assume. Much like whether or not lrms are common, or clan auto cannons are seen at all.

For direwolves, all builds start with dual gauss: high damage, ppfld, zero heat. Add lasers for low tonnage high damage (lots of heatcap to spare.).

Crab builds tend to be similar. Ac40 is builds lose out due to heat - gauss does nearly as much damage, further, and without eating heatcap.

[Yokaiko]

Wintersdark, on 19 March 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

depends on Elo, I'd assume. Much like whether or not lrms are common, or clan auto cannons are seen at all.

For direwolves, all builds start with dual gauss: high damage, ppfld, zero heat. Add lasers for low tonnage high damage (lots of heatcap to spare.).

Crab builds tend to be similar. Ac40 is builds lose out due to heat - gauss does nearly as much damage, further, and without eating heatcap.

That was my point CRAB BUILDS TEND TO BE SIMILAR....in every variation. The Crab is an IS version of the DWF.

[Adiuvo]

Yokaiko, on 19 March 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

The ballistics are on the arms, your point is flay invalid.

...I get the feeling you don't really understand what you're talking about. so I'm not sure why I'm bothering, buuuuuuuuuut

Go on corner of hill. Use lasers to peek hill. Enemy turns. Go on side of hill. Use corner to peek with one arm. Repeat process. Dead enemy mech.

Yay.

[Yokaiko]

Adiuvo, on 19 March 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

...I get the feeling you don't really understand what you're talking about. so I'm not sure why I'm bothering, buuuuuuuuuut

Go on corner of hill. Use lasers to peek hill. Enemy turns. Go on side of hill. Use corner to peek with one arm. Repeat process. Dead enemy mech.

Yay.

I have both chassis well better than module mastered.

....and my Elo level has been "hell" since Elo was added.

Edited by Yokaiko, 19 March 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Yokaiko, on 19 March 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

I have both chassis well better than module mastered.

....and my Elo level has been "hell" since Elo was added.

Then you should be well aware of the strengths of the chassis and not try to deny basic facts about the mech with improper reasoning.

[Artgathan]

Aethon, on 19 March 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

And yet you have a choice of whether or not to use XL engines; Clans currently have only omnimechs using XL engines that are locked to the chassis.

People make engine type choice out to be a big deal. It's really not. Build me a clan mech that is markedly improved by the use of a STD engine. You gain no useful survivability and you give up lots of tonnage. Sounds like a great trade.

[Yokaiko]

Adiuvo, on 19 March 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Then you should be well aware of the strengths of the chassis and not try to deny basic facts about the mech with improper reasoning.

lol where did I deny anything? But you can't say dual AC20 is "uncommon" its not. Maybe in comp play, but I haven't done comp in a long time.

[Johnny Z]

After alot of serious in depth though on the matter it seems the best way is if the Omni XL gets a 20% speed loss as has been mentioned and the IS Xl gets a shutdown and start up after losing a side torso with the 20% speed decrease and 20% sink decrease. The heat sink decrease will hurt IS more which adds some more to the Clan balance.

I am not 100% sure this would work but its worth a try.

Its either this or IS XL still blows and the Omni XL gets a shutdown?

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 March 2015 - 04:00 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Sure just add the same thing to IS engine, take two crits, 20% slower.

[Gyrok]

Yokaiko, on 19 March 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Sure just add the same thing to IS engine, take two crits, 20% slower.

Only if engine crits work. IS XL on ST destruction needs to remain. As things are balanced now, it is not far off what it should be, and this torso destruction speed nerf for clans is ridiculous.

[GroxGlitch]

Yokaiko, on 19 March 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Sure just add the same thing to IS engine, take two crits, 20% slower.

Johnny Z, on 19 March 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

After alot of serious in depth though on the matter it seems the best way is if the Omni XL gets a 20% speed loss as has been mentioned and the IS Xl gets a shutdown and start up after losing a side torso with the 20% speed decrease and 20% sink decrease. The heat sink decrease will hurt IS more which adds some more to the Clan balance.

I am not 100% sure this would work but its worth a try.

Its either this or IS XL still blows and the Omni XL gets a shutdown?

Wai-wai-wait a second here. We just got hit with a rather significant nerf and now you're already talking about buffing IS?
No IS mech with an IS XL should survive loss of a side torso. Full stop. You want to take a side torso loss and keep trucking? Push for LFEs. Letting the IS get the same ST-loss-and-keep-fighting rule as the Clan XLs is not only completely and absurdly unfair to us Clanners when we pay for that with locked engines, but a massive buff that the IS, frankly, does not need.

[DivideByZer0]

Artgathan, on 19 March 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

People make engine type choice out to be a big deal. It's really not. Build me a clan mech that is markedly improved by the use of a STD engine. You gain no useful survivability and you give up lots of tonnage. Sounds like a great trade.

It is kind of a big deal.
-There are many IS mechs that mount dual (or triple in some cases) ballistic in a ST. This is the single biggest thing that IS has going for it, regarding why std engine. On lighter mechs with ample space it's not as big of a deal, but on bigger mechs, space becomes a limiting factor very often.

Also:
-Many clan mechs have exposed ST, many IS has big shield arms. Being able to redirect damage like this, avoiding torso shots, is kind of a big deal.
-(slightly off topic) IS can choose engine size. Clan can't (not that I want them to). Yes clan mechs are fast, but sometimes more firepower is more firepower. Especially with a team that moves together. This is also kind of a big deal.

Wanna know ONE clan mech that would benefit from a standard engine? Dual gauss timberwolf (with JJ, of course). There. Oh, wait, PGI made that not-a-thing already. HMMM... wonder why? But somehow, 6LL Stalker is OK.

My opinion on this ST thing:
You're not really wrong, losing an ST means you're probably not doing too well in the match already, however:
I wouldn't mind if this was the only nerf happening. But it's not. It's the latest in a string of nerfs. I mean, before clans even happened, going way back, DHS aren't even double. Theyre 1.4 heat sinks. Clans were nerfed before the first MadCat ever stepped foot on the field. Now, it's quirked IS lasers with ultra short durations and longer range than clan making almost no heat. Clan locked equipment. Ghost heat.The worst quirks pass ever. It just keeps going and going, mechanic on top of mechanic on top of mechanic. Buffs to the nerfs that were meant to counteract the buffs, that happened because of a nerf. Ugh, sorry for the rant.

Last words:
PGI, just give clans the darn laser advantage, give IS the LRM/Ballistic advantage like every other MW/BT game. Tweak duration, or heat or something. But, stop trying to do these band-aid balance adjustments. If you make ST destruction affect heat, give EVERYONE (IS and Clan) real DHS (2.0), and consider removing all heat quirks, or just restart the whole quirk system. And just forget about affecting speed, it's just baseless. You "released" this game almost 2 years ago now, please stop acting like we're still in beta.

edited:cleaned up wording for clarity

Edited by DivideByZer0, 19 March 2015 - 04:19 PM.