437 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

Hello OMNImechs. You know, changeable pods....the entire point of clans...?

IS gets omnitech when PGI decides to bump the timeline. Then you guys get mechs like the fafnir, and templar among others. So, wait, and you will get your mechs that do it too.

Just because those mechs are jack of all trades and master of none, does not mean that they should be nerfed because more utility.

What you insinuate is that your issue is the omni pods, not the mechs. However, to fix that would require locking hardpoints, which negates the entire point of omnis.

What you are saying is basically a non-sequitur in argument form.

A similar statement using your argument would be: "the thud 5SS can mount 7 OP lasers, therefore it is OP, therefore, we should nerf the engine..."

Think about that for a minute.

Are you serious? Omnipods and flexibility and the benefits of that don't make Omni's "master of none" builds. Laservomit, streakboats, 6xuac5s? Clans can double down on designs far better than is mechs.

Their crit/weight reductions on weapons and upgrades is what is balanced by locked engines and hardware.

The fact that they all get the huge benefit of xl engines with no negatives is what needs balanced and that is what this does.

Look at the scrow load out for damage and speed. Show me an is 55 ton mech that mounts similar firepower with a std engine and goes 90.

Different facets are balanced by different factors. You get 1/2 the spaces for endo/ff and your weapons are all smaller and lighter. In return you don't get to min/max components as much - however you get to move omnipods around to make way more specialized hard point options. You get the 50%weight savings of an xl but don't die in st destruction. That is a massive benefit on every chassis. Having loss of a st make you perform like you have a std engine of the same tonnage isn't an unreasonable Nerf - still superior to is options of cake or death.

[Aethon]

cruxholzer, on 19 March 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

I agree with this. That is why this sucks for clans.

I think PGI is doing it backwards. I don't think that Clan XL engines shouldn't get a nerf at all. I would like IS XL engines to get a buff. They should not be instantly kill when blown out but take a large movement hit, which could then be adjusted to achieve balance.

I would be more cool with IS getting this buff than Clans losing it; they already cannot mount any 20-class autocannon weaponry in the side torso if they use an XL, which is enough of a disadvantage, IMHO.

[Weeny Machine]

Adamski, on 19 March 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

You are joking right? The King Crab has to spend 6 extra tons to run a dual gauss build, or 4 extra tons on a dual AC20, not to mention the increased crit space requirements of both the weapons and upgrades. Gee, I guess that 1.5 extra tons the Crab has aren't so amazing.

Logical arguments. Now that is unfair. How should he defend against that?

[Deathlike]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 March 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

I LOVE it when people cherry pick advantages and ignore disadvantages (on either side)

disclaimer: i don't actually love it.

Crab can go faster.
Crab is far more agile
Crab gets single shot ACs
Direwolf has more energy firepower

Well, the Crab can go faster... but it's a moot point when you get a lot of dakka and you need all the spare tons you can get.

Crab is certainly more agile... but technically isn't entirely meaningful unless you shield yourself with its arms.

IS ACs are better than Clans. The only thing that Clans still hold better is better Clan Gauss in terms of loadout requirements.

Direwolf literally has the biggest alphas possible. The Crab can only wish to get that close (well, it might win out on straight close range brawling).

The Crab has advantages, but saying the Direwolf is less effective is disingenuous. If you're not destroying things quickly in a Direwolf (and it should be easily be faster at killing things than the King Crab), you're completely doing it wrong.

The Clan XL on the Dire Wolf affords so much bonus tonnage that a King Crab would never be able to utilize in addition to the omnipod system that naturally nothing can compete with that.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 March 2015 - 08:27 AM.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 19 March 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

Are you serious? Omnipods and flexibility and the benefits of that don't make Omni's "master of none" builds. Laservomit, streakboats, 6xuac5s? Clans can double down on designs far better than is mechs.

Their crit/weight reductions on weapons and upgrades is what is balanced by locked engines and hardware.

The fact that they all get the huge benefit of xl engines with no negatives is what needs balanced and that is what this does.

Look at the scrow load out for damage and speed. Show me an is 55 ton mech that mounts similar firepower with a std engine and goes 90.

Different facets are balanced by different factors. You get 1/2 the spaces for endo/ff and your weapons are all smaller and lighter. In return you don't get to min/max components as much - however you get to move omnipods around to make way more specialized hard point options. You get the 50%weight savings of an xl but don't die in st destruction. That is a massive benefit on every chassis. Having loss of a st make you perform like you have a std engine of the same tonnage isn't an unreasonable Nerf - still superior to is options of cake or death.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...wait one minute...

Clan builds have inferior heat to damage ratios *ACROSS THE BOARD* save 1 weapon, and that is equal heat to damage. It is also called a Gauss rifle in case you are curious.

You can say whatever you want about hard points, however, omnis are not the "master of all" either.

1.) You cite a completely ammo dependent dakka build that is honestly the only dakka build clans have that even *REMOTELY* competes with your 55 ton and 60 ton uber quirked dakka boats. (It takes 6 CUAC5s on a 100 ton mech to keep up with your 55 and 60 ton mechs...WTF does that say???? Our mech is slow as christmas with terribad torso twist and poor visibility as well...).

2.) Streakboats are only useful against lights...against anything else the damage gets laughed off while 4-5 launchers worth of SRMs each hit a different component on a mech making them worthless.

3.) Laser vomit builds are slowly, but surely, going away. They are entirely too damn hot to run and keep up sustained DPS. They are alpha mechs now, you cannot possibly sustain anything close to reasonable with them.

4.) So, you are griping about weapon loadouts, still, and trying to somehow blanket that over by nerfing the engine?

Thank you for making my point for me. You complain about weapon builds and then point to an engine as the cause?

Deathlike, on 19 March 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

Well, the Crab can go faster... but it's a moot point when you get a lot of dakka and you need all the spare tons you can get.

Crab is certainly more agile... but technically isn't entirely meaningful unless you shield yourself with its arms.

IS ACs are better than Clans. The only thing that Clans still hold better is better Clan Gauss in terms of loadout requirements.

Direwolf literally has the biggest alphas possible. The Crab can only wish to get that close (well, it might win out on straight close range brawling).

The Crab has advantages, but saying the Direwolf is less effective is disingenuous. If you're not destroying things quickly in a Direwolf (and it should be easily be faster at killing things than the King Crab), you're completely doing it wrong.

The Clan XL on the Dire Wolf affords so much bonus tonnage that a King Crab would never be able to utilize in addition to the omnipod system that naturally nothing can compete with that.

Actually, KGC w/STD300 + endo = 52 tons of weapon space with max armor rounded down to nearest ton (basically cutting some from the legs...)

So, the KGC can get Equal speed, more tonnage, and better torso twist and better torso twist range; or more speed, less weapons...

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Actually, KGC w/STD300 + endo = 52 tons of weapon space with max armor rounded down to nearest ton (basically cutting some from the legs...)

Are you seriously doubling down?

I run 2 CLPL, 2 CGauss, 3 CERML with at least 20 CDHS on the Dire Wolf.

Name a King Crab that can even remotely do that. You can do dual IS Gauss and probably 2 LPL/PPC/ERPPC/ERLL (you could add 1 more laser to the LL/ERLL builds and that's technically it), but that's kind the end of that unless you swap all the direct fire energy into SRMs with barely a few more DHS from the stock 10 you get.

Quote

So, the KGC can get Equal speed, more tonnage, and better torso twist and better torso twist range; or more speed, less weapons...

No, it sounds like you haven't even run a King Crab long enough to know this. Please, try again.

I'm talking about practical builds, not just smurfy wishful thinking.

You lose at least 6 tons trying to run IS dual Gauss vs Clan Dual Gauss, and that's not even the beginning part of that story.

The Clan Direwolf starts off with 15 DHS, which is another 5 tons that has to be accounted for.

So, that's 11 hidden tons that if you're even bother to going the dual Gauss route, that this comparison isn't even equal.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 March 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Gyrok, on 16 March 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

stuff

and 10 more tons in CW....

OK, you got us. The I.S. get to divide the whole 10t across 4 chassis, for a whopping 2.5t per chassis dropped, gain. It is no wonder why the Clans are having such a hard time on the CW fronts these days ffs.

We need a "Penalty Box" and this kind of **** needs to put those who write it in that box.

"Reaching that far just to have an excuse" has to be a penalty right?

Edited by Almond Brown, 19 March 2015 - 09:40 AM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 19 March 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Are you seriously doubling down?

I run 2 CLPL, 2 CGauss, 3 CERML with at least 20 CDHS on the Dire Wolf.

Name a King Crab that can even remotely do that. You can do dual IS Gauss and probably 2 LPL/PPC/ERPPC/ERLL (you could add 1 more laser to the LL/ERLL builds and that's technically it), but that's kind the end of that unless you swap all the direct fire energy into SRMs with barely a few more DHS from the stock 10 you get.




No, it sounds like you haven't even run a King Crab long enough to know this. Please, try again.

I'm talking about practical builds, not just smurfy wishful thinking.

You lose at least 6 tons trying to run IS dual Gauss vs Clan Dual Gauss, and that's not even the beginning part of that story.

The Clan Direwolf starts off with 15 DHS, which is another 5 tons that has to be accounted for.

So, that's 11 hidden tons that if you're even bother to going the dual Gauss route, that this comparison isn't even equal.

Negative, the DWF starts off with 13 DHS, 10 engine + 2 in XL300 stored, + 1 in 1 leg (cannot recall left or right, thinking right)

You can run AC40 + 2LPL easily and wreck face in KGC, and I have beaten DWs with that build...

Edited by Gyrok, 19 March 2015 - 09:57 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

Negative, the DWF starts off with 13 DHS, 10 engine + 2 in XL300 stored, + 1 in 1 leg (cannot recall left or right, thinking right)

You can run AC40 + 2LPL easily and wreck face in KGC, and I have beaten DWs with that build...

Neg, it is 15 Double Heatsinks.

Each Side Torso also mounts one.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=172

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

Negative, the DWF starts off with 13 DHS, 10 engine + 2 in XL300 stored, + 1 in 1 leg (cannot recall left or right, thinking right)

DWF-PRIME

Try again. You're not accounting for 1 DHS on each side torso.

Quote

You can run AC40 + 2LPL easily and wreck face in KGC, and I have beaten DWs with that build...

Your opponents were terrible or were distracted. Seriously, I don't really fear that at all, comparatively speaking.

[Jman5]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

Negative, the DWF starts off with 13 DHS, 10 engine + 2 in XL300 stored, + 1 in 1 leg (cannot recall left or right, thinking right)

You can run AC40 + 2LPL easily and wreck face in KGC, and I have beaten DWs with that build...

[wanderer]

Quote

ONE THIRD OF MY ENGINE IS DESTROYED.

By critical space, you've only lost 20% (2 crits/10) on a Clan XL for blowing up a side torso.

What's bad about it is you've breached 66% of the engine's SHIELDING. Anything that actually does non-shielding engine damage has very likely punched into the vital parts of the engine and killshotted it outright, which is part of why MWO's Clan XL penalties are so hilarious. Fact is, part of the reason an engine has to take 4+ crits in a single turn to potentially Stackpole is just this- the first three hits to an engine are all shielding, not it's other internal parts.

Again,though- if MWO actually put a more game-realistic heat system in, even a direct-from-TT translation of engine damage would have made a fine penalty. 1 heat/sec for the loss of a side torso when overheat actually slows a 'Mech down would have neatly wrapped up the whole thing without all this endless kludging.

[Burktross]

Nightshade24, on 19 March 2015 - 12:47 AM, said:

It is quite easy and sometimes vital in the following mechs...

Stalker (the CT E ones)
Grasshopper
Centurion
Atlas
Hunchback.

You never see XL centurions for a reason. it isn't due to 'bad hitboxes' that's for sure...

Easy, yes. Vital? No.
I own all of those mechs-- zombying has never been a substantial benefit for anything more than a moment.
Then you just get annihilated when people see your armor readout.

Also-- if you're not using an XL in a Hopper, you must be doing it wrong!

Gyrok, on 19 March 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

equal heat to damage. It is also called a Gauss rifle in case you are curious.

15 heat gauss rifle...?

Edited by Burktross, 19 March 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[Gyrok]

Almond Brown, on 19 March 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

OK, you got us. The I.S. get to divide the whole 10t across 4 chassis, for a whopping 2.5t per chassis dropped, gain. It is no wonder why the Clans are having such a hard time on the CW fronts these days ffs.

We need a "Penalty Box" and this kind of **** needs to put those who write it in that box.

"Reaching that far just to have an excuse" has to be a penalty right?

Meaning you can run a stalker 85 + 3x wvr 6k. In essence, you get a massively broken load out there. You know where I see F i s s i o n dropping? On IS as a PUG against clans.

SJR only plays OP crap right? Do the math.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok;

You largely ignored everything I mentioned save to take what I said about weapons out of context.

You're trying to imply that the only loadouts that matter are ac boats now? Laservomit is, has been and will be an optimal comp build. People are getting good at using dragons, in spite of them being a glass cannon of the first order (they actually die when they lose a st and have all their weapons in one large arm. If you had those problems in a clan mech you would cry) just to compete with clan mechs who lrm, SRM, streak, laservomit and tank damage better.

Clans have high heat and high damage and generally better range.

So, again. All this is doing is making your xl speed for free clan mechs have to move at std engine speeds when they lose a st - instead of dying, like is mechs.

[Johnny Z]

Karl Streiger, on 19 March 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

and then what?
even with ES the Summoner would be a wimp in comparison with the Timber
even with - removeable jumpjets, and removable internal heatsinks
but maybe the quirks can overcome the 500% better weapon load on the Timber (but i don't believe it)
and the problem is - allow this treatment for the summoner implements that you can do the same on the timer.
and double gauss on the timber is doable - with 4 -6 ERMLAS backup

To balance the Thor and Mad Cat, they should make the Thor the more agile and speedy of the two by a large margine. I think they are on the way to doing that anyway it appears.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 19 March 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

Gyrok;

You largely ignored everything I mentioned save to take what I said about weapons out of context.

You're trying to imply that the only loadouts that matter are ac boats now? Laservomit is, has been and will be an optimal comp build. People are getting good at using dragons, in spite of them being a glass cannon of the first order (they actually die when they lose a st and have all their weapons in one large arm. If you had those problems in a clan mech you would cry) just to compete with clan mechs who lrm, SRM, streak, laservomit and tank damage better.

Clans have high heat and high damage and generally better range.

So, again. All this is doing is making your xl speed for free clan mechs have to move at std engine speeds when they lose a st - instead of dying, like is mechs.

LOL @ if clan mechs had those problems...

Aside from the TW/SCR/DW and HBR, name some Clan mechs that actually have decent torso hardpoints, if they have any at all... if anyone would be bawling over the fact that the weapons are loaded into an arm only, clans would not be among those. Everything we have is mounted in arms...

Laser vomit is outranged by the 4N stalker...you do realize this right? The stalker also runs cooler, has shorter burn time, and can even get 2 groups of 3 off without ghost heat in roughly the same time a laser vomit alpha takes to burn. Think about that...

Also, back to your flawed..."nerfing engines across the board fixes weapons" argument.

Please...

Engines have nothing to do with weapons...stop trying to tie it together.

Edited by Gyrok, 19 March 2015 - 02:20 PM.

[Yokaiko]

cruxholzer, on 19 March 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

I own 3 mastered variants of both mechs filled with Cheese builds. The Crab is a very good mech probably the best IS assault. It isn't better than the Direwolf. You can argue, flame and scream all you want, that is just a fact. I can pull 1000k games in both have similar builds in both, the Direwolf just does everything better than the Crab.

Except move.

Johnny Z, on 19 March 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

To balance the Thor and Mad Cat, they should make the Thor the more agile and speedy of the two by a large margine. I think they are on the way to doing that anyway it appears.

Call me when Thor can mount more weapons than my IS 55 toners. Seriously the mech has 21.5 tons total with full armor.

[Hillslam]

Did someone actually try to post the King Crab can out-load the Dire on weapons? Wow, Lieing/Twisting/Spinning Gold Medal territory that. Where do we award the Oscar for best screenplay?

You people are either political press secretaries or ballerinas, cuz I haven't seen spinning like this since Mikhail Baryshnikov starred in the nutcracker.

[Yokaiko]

Hillslam, on 19 March 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

Did someone actually try to post the King Crab can out-load the Dire on weapons? Wow, Lieing/Twisting/Spinning Gold Medal territory that. Where do we award the Oscar for best screenplay?

You people are either political press secretaries or ballerinas, cuz I haven't seen spinning like this since Mikhail Baryshnikov starred in the nutcracker.

Out load no, similar builds, yes.

quad UAC5s? Check
6 AC2/UAC/LB2X? Check
Dual guass dual PPC/ER-PPC? Check
Dual AC20/UAC20? Check

I like the quad UAC10s personally, but its a giggle build, I never use it for srs buisiness, its the only thing I do with a Whale that I can't do with a Crab.