625 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Alistair Winter, on 25 March 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

Please! Yes! We've been begging for an answer about that for years, literally! Would be much appreciated.

Obligatory posting:

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Gorgo7, on 25 March 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

Clan Mechs require nothing to make them "more competative" with the IS mechs. Ton for ton they are all superior machines to the quirked IS machines.
ALL OF THEM.

https://yourlogicalf...sition-division

Some specific Clan mechs are very optimal performers when specific weapon/omnipod combinations are used. However, this is not the case for "all" of the Clan mechs.

Edited by 00ohDstruct, 25 March 2015 - 05:40 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Mike Forst, on 25 March 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

From what I know, it's just best to leave flamers be for now. I'm not the best qualified to speak as to why though. I can try to get you some answers on that topic.


Maybe.

Please yes. We've been struggling for info on flamers - any hope at all - for literally years. They look awesome, the theory is great, but using flamers is pretty much worse for the firing mech than the one being... Err, flamed.

Its a small thing, just one weapon amongst many, but its unique amongst all the weapons in not just being "bad" relative to more optimal weapons, but being so objectively horrible that using them actually benefits your opponent.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 25 March 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

Please yes. We've been struggling for info on flamers - any hope at all - for literally years. They look awesome, the theory is great, but using flamers is pretty much worse for the firing mech than the one being... Err, flamed.

Its a small thing, just one weapon amongst many, but its unique amongst all the weapons in not just being "bad" relative to more optimal weapons, but being so objectively horrible that using them actually benefits your opponent.

Im hoping one day that flamers become a weapon like the Flamethrower in TF2, incredibly short range (and linear falloff), but absolutely devastating DPS if you can withstand the heat.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 25 March 2015 - 06:31 PM.

[Wintersdark]

WM Quicksilver, on 25 March 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

Im hoping one day that flamers become a weapon like the Flamethrower in TF2, incredibly short range (and linear falloff), but absolutely devastating DPS if you can withstand the heat.

I'd like that. Anything actually useful really.

Traditionally, the purpose of a flamer is primarily to overheat mechs.

In our game, however, PGI doesn't want the possibility to "stunlock" a player. If they are sticking to that design decision (its valid, though the target could override shutdown, and using that many flamers would require CLOSE proximity and massive heat sinks) then they need to FOR BALANCE CORERULE IGNORE and just make them a proper weapon. Either a utility weapon with utility, or CLEANSE THEM WITH FIREFIRE!

[Deathlike]

I guess I don't quite have the proper time to make a post (I'm sure that time is soon)... but I can give a simple primer at balancing quirks based on what the Gargoyle got.

The Good quirks:

Arms got their bonus, which was completely needed as they are where the majority of the weapons are.


The Bad quirks:

When you're doing quirks, you need to first determine which mech has the most and least hardpoints in the CT. The Gargoyle-A in theory SHOULD have the best quirks since it has no CT weapons. The Gargoyle-D in theory SHOULD probably have the worst quirks because it has 2. Even 1 weapon in the Center Torso is a significant difference regardless, so you have to set which is quirked appropriately.

When you're doing torso twist quirks... you honestly shouldn't be giving a "1 pt radius increase". This amounts to the same value of having a savings account, and trying to collect on the sub 1% interest. That's what you did.

You need to use start using values like 3 or so to even make it worthwhile. For percentages, you shouldn't be going lower than 2% anyways, like some of the Adder quirks.

The Gargoyle with its older torso twist quirks went like this...

GAR-PRIME (1E): +5 torso twist radius
GAR-A: +10 torso twist radius
GAR-D: no bonus

You had the side torsos giving a max torso twist radius bonus of +10% total (5% each side torso that wasn't the AMS torso).

Now you've reduced them to one variant (Gargoyle-A) with a max bonus of +5 Torso Twist Radius and a +8% Torso Twist Radius (you get +2 Torso Twist Radius +4% for not using the Gargoyle-A).

That is practically a nerf for all intents and purpose. Please rework those numbers.


You need to consider other variables to change, such as heat generation and duration, not just cooldown.

The only time Cooldown should be a consideration is if a mech does not do enough damage or DPS over a period of time because of limited hardpoints. Increasing this on energy heavy mechs makes them overheat quicker like the ones you gave to the Adder. This is honestly unproductive. A similar quirk exists for the Panther-8Z as an example.


Tweaking heat generation should not be taken lightly. A significant percentage can make a mech or a series of energy weapons get out of whack. However, this should be used GENEROUSLY for mechs that have sub-250 engines (known as "poordubs" because they don't benefit from the 10 DHS in engine rule). This should be more applicable to the Adder, Kitfox, and Mist Lynx (possibly even the upcoming Urbie) because of the engine rule. This could be extended to a mech like the Gargoyle as the tonnage is extraordinarily limited to fit in multiple large energy weapons for the cooling that they require. Still, I do believe the Gargoyle needs them... even if it is 5% (like in the 2E arms). However, that isn't as important as the next thing I'd like to discuss.

DURATION for lasers is actually a lot more useful instead of your Cooldown quirks. It does two things... reduce facetime against the enemy (increasing your own TTK) and also reduce your opponent's TTK. This can become complex, but ultimately it is more useful for fragile mechs that have poor durability (I mean, you can increase durability directly, but this is more of a general boost applied differently). This would be more useful for the Adder and other really fragile mechs (Kitfox, Mist Lynx to name a few).


One other thing...

PPC/ERPPC quirks is technically a sensitive issue. If you apply a PPC quirk, the starting point is ALWAYS the velocity. Any other quirk done BEFORE this is generally a non-starter. This has more to do with PPC/ERPPC velocity being pretty bad, so it affects the "effective range" of the weapon from mid-range to sniper depending on how fast it goes (think Gauss Rifle). Increasing ACTUAL PPC/ERPPC range is a waste of a quirk honestly... better suited for PPC/ERPPC heat generation or greater velocity (PPC range would be OK, but the default 810m ERPPC range is more than enough). The Grasshopper-5N would be an example of a wasted quirk. You have to start @ least 10% to be even useful (see Adder or Summoner ERPPC quirks).

I hope this is helpful and I hope it's not too late in the process to properly requirk them before the next patch.

[Wildstreak]

Wintersdark, on 25 March 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Mr. Frost: Flamers. They're garbage, and I think everyone expects them to remain so. If there's no internal interest in making them not-garbage, could you consider a ridiculously OP (in numerical terms) Flamer buff for the Adder? Something that could make it's hardmounted Flamer actually useful instead of a 1T dead weight?

I have an Adder review from recent use saved for posting, included I was going to ask for the Adder to be used as a Guinea Pig giving different Flamer Quirks per variant. Player feedback could then be used to find the best ones and these could become changes to make all Flamers useful.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Mike Forst, on 25 March 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Unfortunately, the quirks system cannot affect jump jets in any way (at least at this point in time.) Likewise, they cannot alter anything to do with the movement profile.

Wow! I wasn't actually expecting an official response to my post; but, I very much appreciate it!
Ok, I can understand the technical difficulties involved with the Quirks system. Perhaps it can be overcome another way.
 
That is, one of my suggestions was to change the Movement Type to medium.  It doesn't actually have to be a Quirk, it could just BE the archetype of the 'Mech.  I don't know if this is possible, but if each 'Mech is assigned a movement archetype it could just be reassigned as "medium".
Are there no 'Mechs that have movement types different than their weight class?

As for JJ Quirks: Even if not possible now, I'm sure people will be clamoring for this eventually; and it's probably a good way to expand your Quirk aresenal.
But the speed Quirks are already there, so upping it to 7.5% on the Summoner would go a long way, I think.
Final thought: I also believe unlocking/giving ES to Summoner would not break the game.  Every other heavy and even some mediums (ahem, Stormcrow) would still have more pod space available.  It's really only ammo space for the Summoner.
Anyway, I just posted because the overwhelming reaction (mine included) to the Quirks pass was feeling thoroughly underwhelmed!  Thanks, again!

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 26 March 2015 - 03:27 AM.

[Mike Forst]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 26 March 2015 - 02:36 AM, said:

Wow! I wasn't actually expecting an official response to my post; but, I very much appreciate it!
Ok, I can understand the technical difficulties involved with the Quirks system. Perhaps it can be overcome another way.
 
That is, one of my suggestions was to change the Movement Type to medium.  It doesn't actually have to be a Quirk, it could just BE the archetype of the 'Mech.  I don't know if this is possible, but if each 'Mech is assigned a movement archetype it could just be reassigned as "medium".
Are there no 'Mechs that have movement types different than their weight class?

As for JJ Quirks: Even if not possible now, I'm sure people will be clamoring for this eventually; and it's probably a good way to expand your Quirk aresenal.
But the speed Quirks are already there, so upping it to 7.5% on the Summoner would go a long way, I think.
Final thought: I also believe unlocking/giving ES to Summoner would not break the game.  Every other heavy and even some mediums (ahem, Stormcrow) would still have more pod space available.  It's really only ammo space for the Summoner.
Anyway, I just posted because the overwhelming reaction (mine included) to the Quirks pass was feeling thoroughly underwhelmed!  Thanks, again!

Movement profiles also affect how mechs collide with the world geometry. The Summoner has to be set to large to prevent it from clipping through areas that it is too tall to fit through. This is also why the Gargoyle and Grasshopper had to be set to huge: they are too tall for the large setting.

[Jetfire]

Mike Forst, on 26 March 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

Movement profiles also affect how mechs collide with the world geometry. The Summoner has to be set to large to prevent it from clipping through areas that it is too tall to fit through. This is also why the Gargoyle and Grasshopper had to be set to huge: they are too tall for the large setting.

I thought they were decoupling the collision geometry and the movement profile.

[Mike Forst]

I believe it's just the hill climbing that is getting decoupled

[BARBAR0SSA]

So....where's the March 31 Quirk update notes

"The roadmap as it stands is to try and have changes available every patch. There are some already in progress that I'm hoping to get in for the next patch."

Don't let my cat down, he's really obsessed with the changes.

Edited by shad0w4life, 26 March 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[Mike Forst]

The details will be released when they have passed their branch testing, been integrated into the root development branch, been tested there, been integrated into the mainline, and finally been tested there and are confirmed for production.

I might be able to give the proposed schedule sooner though.

E: PS. I'm not going to be able to tell you where in that pipeline they currently are.

[Gorgo7]

Wildstreak, on 25 March 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

Adder vs any IS 35 tonner.
Thanks.
Have fun.

You have to be kidding!
I said all of them and you said 'What about the Adder!?!'
That's your retort?!?
Get real!
HAHAHA!

Stick to the Pub lanes pal...

[Mcgral18]

Gorgo7, on 26 March 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

You have to be kidding!
I said all of them and you said 'What about the Adder!?!'
That's your retort?!?
Get real!
HAHAHA!

Stick to the Pub lanes pal...

Do you mean three are better than their IS counterparts?


Because that's closer to the truth. Rest are between Mediocre and Terribad, some being significantly worse than their IS counterparts, others being closer.



Don't let that stop your terrible bias though.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Wildstreak, on 25 March 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

Adder vs any IS 35 tonner.
Thanks.
Have fun.

Give it 15/15 CERPPC with proper velocity and see who would be laughing then.....Adder would pretty much 2 shot each and every one of them.....a Adder with good aim and 15/15s would leg it instantly, then shoot out the torso inside of 4 CERPPC shots.

[Andi Nagasia]

i cant see how people make up such Bias,
you could show Raw Data and all the facts on how the mechs work,

=Example=
Table.............Damage.............Heat...............Range............Duration...
IS-ER-LL............9.....................8....................675..................1.25.......
C-ER-LL............11...................10...................740..................1.50.......
but with Quirks
an IS mech with +10% Energy Range gives the IS-ER-LL 742m, 2m more Range than Clan,
an IS mech with -10% Energy Heat gives the IS-ER-LL 7.2heat, 6.8 less Heat than Clan,
also most IS have Quirks that give these Bonuses or give better bonuses,

but you will always have people say but the C-ER-LL has 2 more Damage and 65m Range,
no matter what you tell them they will only ever see more Damage and more Range,

[LordKnightFandragon]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 March 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

i cant see how people make up such Bias,
you could show Raw Data and all the facts on how the mechs work,

=Example=
Table.............Damage.............Heat...............Range............Duration...
IS-ER-LL............9.....................8....................675..................1.25.......
C-ER-LL............11...................10...................740..................1.50.......
but with Quirks
an IS mech with +10% Energy Range gives the IS-ER-LL 742m, 2m more Range than Clan,
an IS mech with -10% Energy Heat gives the IS-ER-LL 7.2heat, 6.8 less Heat than Clan,
also most IS have Quirks that give these Bonuses or give better bonuses,

but you will always have people say but the C-ER-LL has 2 more Damage and 65m Range,
no matter what you tell them they will only ever see more Damage and more Range,

Yeah, really, quirk the IS and they get similar stats as Clans, and sometimes better, then get the better laser duration to boot. AC5s quirked? Pretty amazing weapons. PPFLD 10 points every 1.5s when you pair them. Not at all OP...only cuz its IS.

[Nuclear Weapon]

Seriously... throw some luv at those K2 and Jenner pilots ffs!!


Suggested:

Ballistic cooldown +10%
Med laser duration -10%
Gauss speed +10%

[BARBAR0SSA]

LordKnightFandragon, on 26 March 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yeah, really, quirk the IS and they get similar stats as Clans, and sometimes better, then get the better laser duration to boot. AC5s quirked? Pretty amazing weapons. PPFLD 10 points every 1.5s when you pair them. Not at all OP...only cuz its IS.

Dragon does crazy more damage than that, like 14DPS

AC5 CD is 1.66s %60 off that is 0.996s !! so you get about a 0.68s cooldown.

50% AC5 CD, stack module for another 12% travel time of AC5 round is minimal.