264 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

Now, what about the other 53% of the Clam robots, which aren't competitive NOW, after many blanket nerfs, are hit by yet another.

OK - in this case say 50% for choosen chassis - say Stormcrow?
I hope that this stuff comes for IS soon -not because its a nerf but because its a MUST
I want to have flackering crosshairs - as soon as the heat reaches internal heat capacity + 8
reduced movement - and slacking arm movement when heat reaches internal heat capacity + 5
want to have override warnings at +14
and on

but first we need a start, if that meens that those 53% that no body uses got the nerf too - heck who cares

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 March 2015 - 09:06 AM.

[InRev]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

Ignoring the fact that 53% of Clam mechs are Terribad I see.

Oh, but 15% are easy mode...

PLZ BLANKET NERF THEM ALL!1!!

Sure, blanket nerf them all, but then buff the bad ones in a meaningful manner. No 5% speed bonus or 4% laser duration quirks after stacked omnipods bullshit. Something substantial, like what happened to the Dragon or the Thunderbolt.

The biggest problem with this ST nerf is the fact that PGI is nerfing bad chassis as much as the good ones while they still haven't helped the Suckoner, Badder, Cute Fox, Ice Fridge, Mr Gargles, Peace Dove, etc etc etc.

[KraftySOT]

I think you whiners should take your medicine and the mechanics from the TT should be slowly added piecemeal (since thats the only option with PGI) even if theyre done in remarkably bad and broken ways.

Someday. Id like a real heat scale. With real heat penalties.

The whole "you lost two engine criticals bro" will happen one day, whether you like it or not, whether its balanced or not, because its a part of the damned game.

Quirks are...frankly bad.

Theres a HUGE potential there, but its being mismanaged. There was a huge potential with the 'new scoring rewards' when they added those....and that wont be touched again for years.

You guys are talking about all these things that you think would balance this or that with quirks, not realizing that PGI will never do what you want specifically, unless the stars align and they just happen to have wanted to do that anyways, and even then, will probably just be changed, or broken, or something else is more broken, so youre stuck with crap you never wanted.

[KraftySOT]

At least with a massive ST loss penalty, youre getting something that slightly in the spirit of Battletech.

I could care less about your gundams, or how much money you spent, or how unbalanced itll make the Badder for a few months until PGI throws more 4% MG range quirks at them until someone finally kills someone in one.

Not wanting something thats a part of the franchise, because "MY GUNDAMS BRO!!! THEYRE ALREADY TERRIBLE!!!" is frankly why were in such a sad freaking state to begin with, with a microscopic playerbase, devs that cant communicate outside of 140 characters, and legacy issues that are 3 years old.

[RussianWolf]

Lily from animove, on 18 March 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

so all good clanplayers should go IS now, own your little butts and the remaining clanplayer ones until clans get buffed? what logic is that? How is this ever achiveing any fun gameplay by balance?

I really should safe soem money for a stalker, and a dragon. easy mode mechs with ownage guarantee, given you know how to play some high mopinted hardpoints, or a doomfist.

This is a bit hard to follow. But I will say that despite the ghost bear tag over there, I'm not a clan player. I don't participate in CW but the unit I am with does, hence the tag. I run all mechs, IS and clan whenever I want.

But yes, I put the blame for the clan nerfs on the shoulders of the competitive players and try-hards that used them to rollstomp early on. Players that couldn't afford to pay for clan mechs were rightly outraged. What do you expect PGI to do in that situation? Ignore the masses and have them leave, which make wait times longer for the people that remain and could kill the game? No, they nerfed to try to reign it in. Was it the right thing to do? Not really, the right thing would have been more testing/balances before they released them, but they had hard deadlines that they had to live by or alienate even more people.

Quote

can you please record this? We need the reuslts for science and also the gameplay, becaue many is players seem not to be able to play their mechs properly.

Why don't you join and show me personally how a SL/SPL FS9 can close on a ERLL Kitfox. No problem recording. There is vid of 4 of us in Orions going against 3rdWorld, TwinkyOverlord and company in Twolves that I put up before. They made us eat crow but showed respect for us showing up as challenged.

Quote

yeah IS whined all the time until they got the opps nerfed, better should have invested that water and salt into some sweat in your cockpit to improve your skills.

Same can be said here... instead of whining about the nerfs (many IS mechs/weapons were nerfed before clans were even introduced), just get better. You won't have to worry about a speed reduction if you don't let someone blow a ST off of you.

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

I do.

Doesn't seem fair to the Cute Fox, though. I've got a few days of Premium left.

I'm on most evenings. You know where to find me (in your friends list)

[Voivode]

Lily from animove, on 18 March 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

yeah IS whined all the time until they got the opps nerfed, better should have invested that water and salt into some sweat in your cockpit to improve your skills.

You mean skills like protecting a stripped side torso for half a match because losing it with the IS XL will straight up kill me?

Skills like half popping out of cover in order to trick a Dire Wolf or Timberwolf into wasting their alpha strike since my firepower couldn't compete with theirs?

Skills like keeping my Atlas alive as long as I can under withering fire from two Dire Wolves while my teammates circle around to hit them in the back, knowing the whole time that each Dire Wolf held double my payload?

It's cool though, clearly going a little slower when you lose half your mech is just gonna be a test of your leet skills.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

some clanmechs were the worst even before IS buffs happened, and some is mechs have already as you mentioned gotten "stupidly" high buffs. What d you think after that engine nerf will you have to do to bring those bad clanmechs even into slightly competitive areas? this will require more stupidly quiks even.

This...this is the core of your problem Lily, you and so many others on both Clan and IS factions, people who keep whining, YES WHINING, about balance when the entire time, what they really mean is this...'these aren't competitive!'.

Guess what kids, PGI has stated, FLAT OUT STATED, not all Mechs will be competitive, INCLUDING the ones sold only for real world money. They will be BattleMechs from the TROs that are considered iconic, needed, or just in real high demand, like the UrbanMech. Seriously, WHO thinks that the Urby will be a competition Mech? And how many of us BOUGHT the $40 Urby pack? I did, and you know what, I'll probably take my Urby into CW just for shits and giggles, put the fear of the mighty UrbanMech into those Clanners!

Get it through your heads, all of you who keep bringing up 'it's not competitive!', NO KIDDING! That's by design kids, PGI has been real clear on this subject, so stop whining about it!

Clans have the Trinity, IS has what, their own Trinity last week, not sure what it's like this week after the patch and now with a hotfix, we'll have to wait and see what both sides have again. Hey, just like LAST patch and the patch before that, only the Clans haven't had their Trinity change since day 1 of the Clans, where the IS has had it change every 2 weeks, IF they even had a Trinity, usually it's been a Duo.

And guess what, it'll probably ALWAYS be that there's 3 or 4 top Mechs per faction that are the top competition machines, same as it's been in MWO since the damned CLOSED BETA, which you kids keep totally overlooking/forgetting/ignoring, take your pick.

The Clan XL change will be a good balance move, and it'll affect the IS sooner or later. Maybe, just maybe, it's the start to Engine Crits, which we were told would be in the game during closed beta, remember?

[Mcgral18]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

This...this is the core of your problem Lily, you and so many others on both Clan and IS factions, people who keep whining, YES WHINING, about balance when the entire time, what they really mean is this...'these aren't competitive!'.

Guess what kids, PGI has stated, FLAT OUT STATED, not all Mechs will be competitive, INCLUDING the ones sold only for real world money. They will be BattleMechs from the TROs that are considered iconic, needed, or just in real high demand, like the UrbanMech. Seriously, WHO thinks that the Urby will be a competition Mech? And how many of us BOUGHT the $40 Urby pack? I did, and you know what, I'll probably take my Urby into CW just for shits and giggles, put the fear of the mighty UrbanMech into those Clanners!

Get it through your heads, all of you who keep bringing up 'it's not competitive!', NO KIDDING! That's by design kids, PGI has been real clear on this subject, so stop whining about it!

Clans have the Trinity, IS has what, their own Trinity last week, not sure what it's like this week after the patch and now with a hotfix, we'll have to wait and see what both sides have again. Hey, just like LAST patch and the patch before that, only the Clans haven't had their Trinity change since day 1 of the Clans, where the IS has had it change every 2 weeks, IF they even had a Trinity, usually it's been a Duo.

And guess what, it'll probably ALWAYS be that there's 3 or 4 top Mechs per faction that are the top competition machines, same as it's been in MWO since the damned CLOSED BETA, which you kids keep totally overlooking/forgetting/ignoring, take your pick.

The Clan XL change will be a good balance move, and it'll affect the IS sooner or later. Maybe, just maybe, it's the start to Engine Crits, which we were told would be in the game during closed beta, remember?

You expect more than 4 of 13 robots to be viable.


There's a large chasm in effectiveness between those four, and the others. Competitive isn't needed, but not being Terribad is a start.


Mech construction rules, which the IS happily ignore, are the largest limitations most of those robots face. Even the terrible Myth Lynx could be made frightening....if it were an IS gundam.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

Get it through your heads, all of you who keep bringing up 'it's not competitive!', NO KIDDING! That's by design kids, PGI has been real clear on this subject, so stop whining about it!

If you think people expect every mech competitive, then there is a good chance you don't understand their argument.

When people "whine" about balance, they would like to see the divide between best mech and worst mech shrunk. This is real goal of any sort of balancing, trying to flatten the power curve. Currently the Clans are in a weird place thanks to the Clan lights which contains one of the worst lights in the game outside of the SDR-5V, where as the Clans also have the Hellbringer, Timber, SCrow, and Dire Whale which are all above their IS counterparts and need something to counteract them.

So this balancing act very much does need to be a give and take transaction. Take away the advantage of the Clan XL by nerfing it (or the less plausible change of buffing IS XLs and STD engines) but give the non-optimized clan mechs something in return, like an adjustable engine.

[RussianWolf]

How about we give this nerf to both sides.

IS and Clan XL engines take a 10% (or whatever) hit to their speed when the ST is lost.

Across the entire board.

IS will still die when they lose one ST, but they'll die 10% slower on screen

the other part that is being ignored is that if Clan mechs were as superior as they are in TT. No one would play IS at all until the better IS mechs come out in 5+ years.

[Lily from animove]

Voivode, on 18 March 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

You mean skills like protecting a stripped side torso for half a match because losing it with the IS XL will straight up kill me?

Skills like half popping out of cover in order to trick a Dire Wolf or Timberwolf into wasting their alpha strike since my firepower couldn't compete with theirs?

Skills like keeping my Atlas alive as long as I can under withering fire from two Dire Wolves while my teammates circle around to hit them in the back, knowing the whole time that each Dire Wolf held double my payload?

It's cool though, clearly going a little slower when you lose half your mech is just gonna be a test of your leet skills.

skill makes you know how and when to come with an X and when not, skill makes you know how to use your emch to not hve an issue with an XL death ST.

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

Get it through your heads, all of you who keep bringing up 'it's not competitive!', NO KIDDING! That's by design kids, PGI has been real clear on this subject, so stop whining about it!

With this in mind,we actually wouldn't need any Xl nerfs anymore.because "Thats by design kids" and we would have never needed any IS buffs. LOL, this logic is mostly flawed.

but you know the issue IS has? customisation.
http://mwomercs.com/...40#entry4296540

loads of IS pilots just fail to build a proper mech. only a few, like above have the balls to ask for help, the others hide behind their ego screaming "Clams OP; pls nurf"

Then the entire IS complains about clanners only bringing the same chassis into CW, yeah guess why this is? if the other mechs are performing that horrible in comparison you will never see them come to the table, especially not after even more across all chassis nerfs.

you need to understand that when people play competitive they will be better than non competitives, if you now create "balance" by balancing the side with less competitive players, competetive players swithc sides and the imbalance will be worse than before.

And now lets talk about this urbie. You bring the urbie to CW for fun. You sacrifice the fun of probably 11 other guys dropping with you, your teammates at the end will get mad or butthurt coming to the forum (again) screaming "clams are op pls nurf" And so because of someone having fun, the numbers PGI pulls of his "statistics" get screwed and the wrong adjustments will be done becaue they see: clans win more often, people cry about Op clans, must be true lets change. Yes YOU KNOW that urbie is not competitive so YOU do not care about it being not good. But there is a big bunch of IS players, thinking they have the "best build" while in reality it just sucks, and then "OP clam nurf pls", because they are just not able to see how horribly bad their build is. Everytime someone screams "bad team" and such, you often find these people doing the worst, simply because they have not a single piece of self criticism and so will never improve.

And then the few competitive player, those that are able to know how stuff works that probably sacrifice some k/d and such and go for a bit more challangign mechs, will afetr these nerfs go back to the TBR and SCR. And then much fun, because that "XL nerfed" TBR is still way more problematic for you than the currently non nerfed Nova I am using the most time.
This kills my fun because the Nova is now abyssimal bad, and it kills my opponents fun too because they then have to face a tbr instea a Nova. But no problem, they continue screaming for the next nerfs.

But as player able to be competitive, I tell you by what I see (and what I had to argue with IS pilots) that the majority of them is just building and piloting their IS emchs wrong. Most do not even udnertsand what heat efficiency is and why the IS has a big advantage here. And if you try to help them explaining it and hope they improve. No they just tell you that you are wrong and start getting hostile and whatever. With that mindset they will be doomed to be inferior.

And this incoming nerf will not improve chassis diversity, it will not balance anything, it just makes anything worse, because this is not the right way to do it.

too many people rant about everything, TBR got fixed JJ'S much drama, because of 2 tons on this mech, wow that never hurted someone except an OP mech. But this is going to bury some emchs that you hardly see. and this to a degree where its questionable why they even were implemented into the game in first place.

@Russian because I don't have any FS9s anymore, sadly, because they got so powerbuffed LOL. I needed the room in mechbays for some reinforcement variants and a KGC and further Atlas to master them. yur LL kfx will not beat a FS9 full of SPL's you would really need to avoid cover massively to make this happen. I also don't have much time the last days in the evening.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

You expect more than 4 of 13 robots to be viable.

Define Viable?

And do you think that 30% of the 164 or so (not sure on the exact number) IS robots meet that same definition? (honest question. I also differentiate between the various chassis because not all versions within a certain model may be viable)

[EvilCow]

I will offer this definition of "viable":

Mechs good enough that with dedication and training you are able to do good things with them.

They are almost all viable, which is different from "top".

[Kristov Kerensky]

No Mcgral, I don't expect to see more than 3 or 4 competition Mechs for either faction, no matter how many Mechs we end up for each faction. This WILL always be the way it is for the top competition players, if you think otherwise, you've obviously not played many games of any sort at the top levels. The BEST are just that, the best, for whatever the reason, they perform best over all other choices, be it by a small percentage margin or by an overwhelming margin, they top everything else. We're given a limited tonnage for our drop decks, so it WILL always be 3 or 4 top Mechs, if that many.

As for the non-top tier Mechs, they are NOT terribad, they just are not top tier, HUGE effing difference and you damn well know it, or if you do NOT know it, you should not be saying a thing about balance. Just because YOU personally can't use anything but the god tier Mechs doesn't mean everyone has that problem. I see people running around in non-god tier Mechs every single drop in the non-CW drops, pug and team. I see them in CW as well, both with teams and pugs. I only see players dropping in god tier ONLY Mechs with certain large units, and that's a VERY small percentage of the player base, and they won't use anything that's not the BEST OF THE BEST, and you know it. And it CHANGES for the IS every 2 damn weeks.

Quicksilver, I know what they are whining about, they've STATED it clearly multiple times, they do NOT want to have ANY negatives to their chosen toys. They toss out bs about 'but what about THESE Mechs, they aren't competitive, why can't you make them better and NOT nerf the god tier!' or bs about how ALL Mechs need to be more even on their usefulness, like Mcgral did. And that's all it is, pure bs trying to defend their position that THEIR toys need to be left alone, do something to something ELSE, preferably a negative to the OTHER side. Seriously, are you NOT reading what's being posted?

Lily, that's funny, really, it's funny. Nice emotionally based argument there, since PGI has been real clear that they DO check the stats, hence the 240 Clan vs 250 IS drop deck change, evidently the NUMBERS show the Clans are a bit OP. For once PGI is taking small steps to correct an issue, instead of their typical super over reactionary 'fixes' to issues. Too bad their stats are based on totally bs numbers huh?

I know competition play, you can try that argument all you want Lily, but it holds NO water here, there is NO competition scene in MWO right now. Anyone claiming otherwise is delusional, this game has a barely functional netcode, HSR is hit and miss, hitreg is so hit and miss it's not even funny, and it'll change during a drop. Balance across the board is totally non-existent due to the simple fact that the backbone of ANY online game, the netcode, isn't stable or working properly. What the hell kind of competitive scene can you possibly have when the ENTIRE balance of power shifts every 2 weeks due to changes in 'balance' that aren't based on anything solid? Good gods, do you people realize how many weapons, quirks and other things will have to be TOTALLY redone once HSR is working solidly and hitreg is 90% accurate for the majority of the playerbase? Don't try to tell me about competition play, you obviously don't have an effing clue if you think THIS is what it is.

[Water Bear]

Do it. Nerf 'em!

It's just hard to explain why not dying from losing a side torso is fair. You need real disadvantages.

[Mcgral18]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

No Mcgral, I don't expect to see more than 3 or 4 competition Mechs for either faction, no matter how many Mechs we end up for each faction. This WILL always be the way it is for the top competition players, if you think otherwise, you've obviously not played many games of any sort at the top levels. The BEST are just that, the best, for whatever the reason, they perform best over all other choices, be it by a small percentage margin or by an overwhelming margin, they top everything else. We're given a limited tonnage for our drop decks, so it WILL always be 3 or 4 top Mechs, if that many.

As for the non-top tier Mechs, they are NOT terribad, they just are not top tier, HUGE effing difference and you damn well know it, or if you do NOT know it, you should not be saying a thing about balance. Just because YOU personally can't use anything but the god tier Mechs doesn't mean everyone has that problem. I see people running around in non-god tier Mechs every single drop in the non-CW drops, pug and team. I see them in CW as well, both with teams and pugs. I only see players dropping in god tier ONLY Mechs with certain large units, and that's a VERY small percentage of the player base, and they won't use anything that's not the BEST OF THE BEST, and you know it. And it CHANGES for the IS every 2 damn weeks.

Mist Lynx is terribad, sorry.


It didn't need to be, if it were an IS mech, it could be a better Death's Kneel, but because it's a Clam mech, it's terribad. Simple as that. Underengined, poor hardpoints, hardwired equipment that hurt it more than benefit it.


Fridge is in a similar place, with a ducking huge engine, which is completely unnecessary. It's a worse Jenner, at best. The coming of the D arm will make it less terrible, to only be Bad instead of Terribad.

Mr Gargles is also going to be improved after the paywall is up, to be a worse Nova instead of....well, just plain Bad.



Just as the IS has terrible mechs, so do the Clams. More than 4 viable robots would be nice. Viable doesn't mean easy mode, it means it's not hard mode.


But, sorry, I forgot.

CLAMS OP PLZ BLANKET NERF!11!

[Water Bear]

RussianWolf, on 18 March 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

How about we give this nerf to both sides.

IS and Clan XL engines take a 10% (or whatever) hit to their speed when the ST is lost.

You do realize that IS XL's already have a far worse disadvantage associated with side torso loss, right? Namely DEATH?

[EvilCow]

Water Bear, on 18 March 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

You do realize that IS XL's already have a far worse disadvantage associated with side torso loss, right? Namely DEATH?

Broken sarcasm detector I would say.

[Mcgral18]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 18 March 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

Define Viable?

And do you think that 30% of the 164 or so (not sure on the exact number) IS robots meet that same definition? (honest question. I also differentiate between the various chassis because not all versions within a certain model may be viable)

Probably. Kintaro's, not Huggin Ravens, HGNs, Vindicators, Commando's; quirks could only do so much.

Hitboxes weren't touched, which are what affect some of those robots.


Pretty sure more than half are viable, though it's true that variants can be wholly different, rather than a hardpoint different at most.


Viable, for the most part, means not a chore to pilot, because of speed, hitboxes, weapons, etc... IS mechs can choose speed, while (some) Clan mechs can choose weapons. For those who don't have weapons...they get screwed in multiple facets.

Hardpoint location is another big point. Jaeger Ballistics to CTF 4X ballistics, or Mr Gargles to Loki.

Edited by Mcgral18, 18 March 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

and gauss in the timber are also not really a good thing, other laodouts are just better.

Gauss in a TBR is a very good thing. If it weren't then the 2 common gaussvomit builds wouldn't be as popular as they are. It has basically superceded the laservomits in popularity.