264 replies to this topic

[Clint Steel]

I agree with OP, though i don't pilot too many Clan Mechs. It would hurt the subpar mechs like the Novas and Adders.

Currently if your side torso is taken out, you usually lose a substantial amount of firepower, and end up running just as hot (or hotter) with the few weapons you have left. I think this is pretty fair trade off while still making Clan tech seem more powerful.

If any nerfing needs to be done, its too the 3 specific Chassis that are the most powerful (DW, SC, TW), the rest of the Clans are just fine.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 18 March 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

The A is a gimmick

The A is unmatched.

At 100 meters.

[Adiuvo]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

The A is unmatched.

At 100 meters.

That's why it's a gimmick. Getting that close for any period of time requires a mistake on the part of your opponent, not your own skill. The only time this isn't true is when used en masse on a team with communication, and if the enemy team brings a close range drop deck.

[Sir Wulfrick]

KraftySOT, on 17 March 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

And no one would put a standard engine in a Direwolf even if they had the choice.

Do you really want 13 less tons of space?

Welcome to the world inhabited by AS7 pilots

[Lily from animove]

KraftySOT, on 18 March 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Have you ever played with 11 other really good players? Because youre missing something key here.

When the rest of your team is a professional **** ball, you can do an insane amount of damage. He could do that in a Highlander with nothing but a small laser and streak srm2 as well.

Thats a horrible, horrible example. The things someone CAN do with a Mech doesnt make that mech good or mean anyone else outside of those circumstances can either.

I can round up a bunch of goons and take 12 Gauss spiders and do an insane amount of damage too, trolling a bunch of clan pugs.

That doesnt make the Gauss Spider a tier one uber awesome meta mech. Which is the same thing as "viable". Because theres absolutely no reason you should ever drop in anything thats automatically at a disadvantage.

please shut up, really! He was not in a 12 man premade, further, you are the only one that replied nonsense in that thread when "guessing" the mech and loadout he used, (it was very obvious from the beginning that this was about 4 dragons) so you obviously, proof over and over again you have hardly any idea what you speak about. Disturbing that mechs get balanced because of opinions like this and players like this.

Adiuvo, on 18 March 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

The A is a gimmick, and the Banshee and Stalker aren't top tier competition worthy. They're both heavily outclassed by a Daishi.

Also don't say 'you.' I don't care about the distinction between clan and IS lore wise when it comes to game balance or picking what I drive.

no they are not, high mounted hardpoints matter a lot, espeially in CW, given you know how to play that strenght, because then the DWF is not hitting you much while you can dish out a lot dmg.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 March 2015 - 01:28 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Quicksilver, no one has anything but anecdotal evidence that any given Mech is terribad, they just aren't top tier worthy so that's that. I agree that some of the Clan Mechs need help, Omnipods on them need to be reworked, ALL weapon types should be possible in ALL Omnipod locations on all OmniMechs, that's a fact and it's one PGI needs to really get their heads out of their asses about. Balance be damned, give the OmniMechs their TEETH for Kerensky's sake, that's the entire POINT of the Omnipod system and the OmniMechs in the first damn place. There's far better ways to balance them against IS Mechs than restricting the Omnipods the way they have.

Lily, balance is something that can be done even when the netcode is not working correctly. Weapon balance is pretty useless when the netcode doesn't work, because you don't KNOW what's hitting and doing damage because hits don't register as they should too often, so your data is corrupt and your weapon changes due to that data are therefore worthless. This goes for weapon damages, weapon heats, projectile speeds, and can even extend to quirks related to weapons. It's pretty basic stuff here, don't even need to work in the field like I do to know this, so why are you having problems grasping it?

Balance that's NOT netcode based is easier to do, it's often simple logic. Engines have X number of slots, loss of 3 of those means Mech doesn't function anymore, essentially death ingame. XL engines put engine slots in the side torsos, 3 for IS, 2 for Clan. IS Mechs with XL, torso side destruction means 3 lost engine slots, dead Mech. Clan Mechs with XL, torso side destruction means 2 lost engine slots, which means there should be SOMETHING negative happening, it IS straight out of the BTech rules which the entire slots/destruction of and engines losing 3 being dead come from....remember that? 2 engine slots losts means automatic heat generation, which typically causes you to go slower as well. PGI did the heat thing, it has SO little effect that most of you didn't even realize it's been IN for a bit now, so obviously that's not working as a balance factor, so the next step is to drop the max speed along with the increased heat production and see if THAT has any effect. Seriously, YOU didn't even realize the heat increase was already in Lily, your posts made that clear, you suddenly did an about face when it was pointed out that it has been in for a bit now, THEN you suddenly realized it had been happening. Right, sure you did, just like everyone else who didn't notice it. Loss of a torso side means loss of half or more of your weapons on a Clan Mech typically, who WOULD notice the heat change? I knew the change had been made and I didn't see it myself, I expected it to be really nasty on my Nova, but even on a Nova I couldn't tell the difference, it literally was so unworthy of notice.

IS Mechs following the rules of TT Mech construction, I keep seeing Clan faction players tossing that in like it would change anything in MWO. You people need to READ those rules yourselves, not rely on the misinformation given you. ANYTHING you want to do to an Inner Sphere Mech, short of adding Clan Tech to it(current time), you can do in BTech, it only takes time, money, trained techs, and sometimes special facilities. And guess what, that's something anyone can do in BTech, it doesn't actually restrict anything, you just need the cbills to pay for it and it's done. Engine ratings having to be divisible by some number, since when? You can simply look at the Mech stats in the TROs and see how that's wrong. Cbills, that's ALL it takes to make any changes you want to your Mech in BTech for the Inner Sphere, time/techs/special facilities all equate to greater cbill costs, that's all. Maybe you folks should read those rules yourselves? Or stop misquoting them? One or the other, I don't care, just pick one and go with it, ok?

[Burktross]

Yokaiko, on 17 March 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Ok so put in a chance to fall down any time you take 20 points of damage, retical sway when running, chance to fall when changing directions, lack of damage to your legs from jumping, loss of actuators etc.

This change is crap.

The direction part is only from concrete and pavement
Lack of leg damage is because of falling rolls (unless you have JJs)

Otherwise.

GIVE. ME. THE TT!

[Mcgral18]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

IS Mechs following the rules of TT Mech construction, I keep seeing Clan faction players tossing that in like it would change anything in MWO. You people need to READ those rules yourselves, not rely on the misinformation given you. ANYTHING you want to do to an Inner Sphere Mech, short of adding Clan Tech to it(current time), you can do in BTech, it only takes time, money, trained techs, and sometimes special facilities. And guess what, that's something anyone can do in BTech, it doesn't actually restrict anything, you just need the cbills to pay for it and it's done. Engine ratings having to be divisible by some number, since when? You can simply look at the Mech stats in the TROs and see how that's wrong. Cbills, that's ALL it takes to make any changes you want to your Mech in BTech for the Inner Sphere, time/techs/special facilities all equate to greater cbill costs, that's all. Maybe you folks should read those rules yourselves? Or stop misquoting them? One or the other, I don't care, just pick one and go with it, ok?

False.

A SHD could never mount an XL300, nor could a Victor ever mount a XL350, it was 320 or 400. That explains the travesty that is Mr Gargles.


You should get informed yourself. That's how movement speed was dictated. Tonnage*walking speed.

For example, Locust. 8/12 movement. 8*20 is 160. Guess the stock engine?


Commando at 25 tons, movement speed of 5/8. 150 stock engine.


Go into any stock mech, you'll see that. As with any variants with different engines. Banshee has one in game. The 3E/3M VS the 3S.

Two come with a 380, the 3S comes with the 285....notice the 95 rating difference?



Come on, at least try to understand something before calling it out. Because what you wrote is straight up false.

[Revis Volek]

Adiuvo, on 18 March 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

That's why it's a gimmick. Getting that close for any period of time requires a mistake on the part of your opponent, not your own skill. The only time this isn't true is when used en masse on a team with communication, and if the enemy team brings a close range drop deck.

So you are saying there is not such thing as a successful light pilot...only bad pilots in other mechs?? Light as a mech do take advantage of mistakes because of speed but to say what you said seems kinda incorrect. A light does his job if he sneaks up behind the fattest mech on the field IMO.

[Adiuvo]

DarthRevis, on 18 March 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

So you are saying there is not such thing as a successful light pilot...only bad pilots in other mechs?? Light as a mech do take advantage of mistakes because of speed but to say what you said seems kinda incorrect. A light does his job if he sneaks up behind the fattest mech on the field IMO.

For a light to have a real affect on a match, as in change the outcome, it requires mistakes on the enemy pilot's part. You cannot force anything as a light. You cannot, in of yourself, create plays. The difference between good and bad light pilots is the capability to take advantage of these mistakes.

Lily from animove, on 18 March 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

no they are not, high mounted hardpoints matter a lot, espeially in CW, given you know how to play that strenght, because then the DWF is not hitting you much while you can dish out a lot dmg.

The hardpoint location is helpful, but in the end it doesn't stop it from being outclassed other areas. The Stalker isn't a bad mech at all, it just isn't 'top tier competition' worthy, which was the context of my original reply to Mcgral.

Edited by Adiuvo, 18 March 2015 - 02:00 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

Now, what about the other 53% of the Clam robots, which aren't competitive NOW, after many blanket nerfs, are hit by yet another.


If this nerf comes in, the construction rules will have to be lifted. No more bad robots because of Ferro instead of Endo; or just straight up nothing.

So, a speed and heat penalty is the same as death for st loss?

Don't be silly.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 18 March 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

So, a speed and heat penalty is the same as death for st loss?

Don't be silly.

On a robot that's already considerably less effective? Essentially, yes.

It was dead to begin with.



I'll say it again, give me an isXL on the Myth Lynx and I'd be happy, if it accompanied TT like engine rules. XL225 or 250 would be just dandy.

Edited by Mcgral18, 18 March 2015 - 02:26 PM.

[Lily from animove]

we balance now, WITH the hitreg, so it is of course taken into account.
otherwise the logic would be not balancing anything until hitreg is fixed.

again your logic fails, because you do now balance and quirk hp, without knowing whats hitting and what not, same issue, just seen from the other side.

as long as we shoot at each other balance is always netcode based, directly or indirectly.

you now coem woith your TT rules again, but TT rules are already off, because in TT how many IS mechs came with full Es and oversized engines? Why do you want to apply TT ralism for the clans, yet not for the IS? thats either broken logic, or biased.

youtr IS mech is following TT construction rules? so your IS mech is gone for month to refit? you Is mech has a chance to fail its upgrade? upgrades are even not available because DHS are lostech and only salvaged? .NO you got the fuill advantags of IS TT rules without downsides. Yet explain me with logical consistence, why clanners suddenly should have the TT rules with downsides?
Dow e also get original weapon damage values back? because thats also TT rules that we laready changed?

yout logic is totally off, because all TT rules fitting your needs are fine, all others are ignored.

Thats not objective thats heavily biased at this point. Or just broken logic.

So explain me by logic, why are you fine with the clans going more to TT rules, but yet IS is fine getting the nice parts of their rules?

I knew the heat increase was there.

what was clear for you? this part:

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

We are also talking of a heat dissipation nerf. and the speed penalty will mostlikely even be more than using a STD engine of the weight as the XL.

This was in comparison to a STD engine, and so the heat nerf, downside whatever you wanna call it, is somethign that you "get" when using a XL ontop of the speed nerf. This is not happening tt a STD, so a STD has 2 advantages of no heat nerf, and no speed nerf. that is what you pay wight for. The XL on the other side WILL bring this downsides. And a clanner can NOT prevent this, because he can NOT choose any STD or a lower sized STD liek the IS has.

clanners have not the choice of engine. And this was since the entire beginning already a big nerf, because IS had never any true tt rules. They just min/max like crazy and can choose to survive both St destructions with 0 heat and 0 speed nerf. So even without any initial nerfs, IS had zombies, available as choice, clanners not.

[Lily from animove]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

On a robot that's already considerably less effective? essentially, yes.

It was dead to being with.



I'll say it again, give my a isXL on the Myth Lynx and I'd be happy, if it accompanied TT like engine rules. XL225 or 250 would be just dandy.

I doubt actually people will somehow ever understand that, because they are already too spoilt of their 150kph lights. they do not get that a light at 106 kph, is already way inferior, and then giving it a penalty when losing a sidetorsi is just death on the next shot. Mostly because they probably play amongst players ho cant aim properly. But any player with decent aim is juts instagibbign sucha light mech.

[KuroNyra]

Illya Arkhipova, on 17 March 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

Oh stop that now Dontor!

Yes, for 20-30 kph less and 2/3 the firepower you too can run around useless with both your STs missing. Or at best with what 2-3 Mlasers? With half your mech missing you still outgun most IS STD Engine builds. And oftentime go faster.

Your Timber Wolf misisng a side will still outperform most Orions.

Your talking about Orions...

The better question would be: What can't outperform most Orions?
The answer? Yeah... Pretty much everything can outperforms Orions.

[Hillslam]

You bunch of biased whiners still going at this? lol you have no shame.

[Lily from animove]

KuroNyra, on 18 March 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Your talking about Orions...

The better question would be: What can't outperform most Orions?
The answer? Yeah... Pretty much everything can outperforms Orions.

this: so because again the TBR being too good, everyone needs nerfs, instead of nerfing the TBR and buffing the Orion. which makes a laod more sense to begin with.

shouldn't we has nerfed the entire IS across the board beause TDR was OP at a point?

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 March 2015 - 02:29 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I'm not aware of a rule that says a Mech can't equip an engine above a certain point, outside of tonnage limits. I know how to calculate walking speed, and that if the number is uneven, you round down, so there's little advantage in TT to take a slightly larger engine that doesn't give you speed increase or extra heat sink slot, and I'd be fine with MWO doing that as well, wouldn't phase me a bit, I don't mind going full TT rules across the board, I'm all for it, always have been. I've done it before years ago in MPBT on GEnie in the 3025 setting, I loved that ****, please bring it back with modern graphics! I'm hoping this move is a step to us actually GETTING engine crits on the CT as well, we were told it would be put in in the future in closed beta, already said this, I'm all for that stuff across the board, the ST engine slots can be critted BEFORE the ST gets destroyed that way, which means the hit in speed and heat dissipation for everyone regardless of faction OR engine type.

Bring it on, I can't wait, finally ripping open armor for MGuns and LBXs will be worth it, who doesn't want that? Nevermind, naturally some hate the very concept of crits regardless of source. Real world has em too ya know, sometimes things just go all pear shaped and a piece of shrapnel off a freaking flashbang hits the weak point in a fuel tank and blows that baby sky high, something that without Michael Bay standing around you just KNOW there was a vengeful deity somewhere going 'you said WHAT monkeyboy?' Or justify it with chaos theory if that floats your boat, either or works from real world observations so far. **** happens, that's life, so why not have it, real world athletes have to deal with it, why the hell shouldn't cyberathletes?

Some of us are fully aware that this Clan XL change may have huge repercussions for the IS, if it gives us a crit system for the engine, oh yeah, Clans ain't got it that bad, we'll ALL have it, IS will get it with LFEs regardless, and those aren't far off from the current time line of 3054 or so isn't it tech cap? Personally hoping for the crit system full on, that's my optimal because both sides have to deal with it equally all the time regardless of STD, XL, cXL or LFE.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

GeneralArmchair, on 17 March 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

Hmm, speed reduction still sounds a hell of a lot better than death. I think you're still getting a great deal.

I'm against it only because of this. It is such a good deal, that nobody will believe it is enough and we'll get another nerf to go with it.

[MischiefSC]

How about this - IS and Clans get the same engine system. Same crit spaces, same impact, same flexibility. Whatever it is. I'd be absolutely content with that. If you want to unlock FF/Endo you have to give up the 1/2 size perk. Then we balance Clan weapons against IS weapons and otherwise mech customization is identical for performance of engines, JJs, BAP, TAG, ,ECM, NARC, etc. Clan weapons would need their weight increased to match IS weapon weight and crit space since the current Clan weight/size balance is based on them having more limited customization.

Make Clan mechs function like IS mechs, save their weapons are higher heat, longer duration in return for more damage and/or more range.

That would make the TW and Scrow nice but not exceptional and would bring IS and Clan mechs into balance.

Which isn't what people want. They want the Clan mechs to have an advantage. Not dying with a ST loss like IS mechs do is a huge, massive, incredible advantage. Only having a speed/heat nerf (so that you function like a std engine and not XL is essentially what it does) is still a big advantage, just less so.